Has Chinese Democracy achieved cult status?

[Spirit]

You're missing my point buddy. And I can only speak for myself in this case.

I have never berated anybody for liking the album, or for thinking it's the best thing ever. I poke fun at the people who attempt to use every excuse in the book for why CD failed instead of just accepting the situation for what it is, and just enjoy the album they like for whatever reason they like it.

It failed in the US. Not a complete failure worldwide. Sure it could've made a bigger impact, but it did reach the top of the charts in several countries and sold pretty well.

For an album to succeed, I believe you need two things. Songs that compel to the masses and good marketing. Chinese probably lacked in both departments. Now some people say that the marketing was very good, and everywhere you turned you could see Chinese. There were TV-ads, ads in magazines, internet marketing, quite good actually. It did however lack a music video and stronger presence on the radio. I guess both Axl and the record company are to blame for that.

The masses expected Appetite 2, but the sound of the album was so different that, for a lot of people it didn't sound quite like GNR. With different musicians, no surprise there. That was always gonna be a though road for Axl & co, impossible one might say.

I think that if the next album sounds a little more "organic" for lack of a better term, they might overcome the "obstacle" that is the fans strictly of the old line-up. Those fans will probably never accept this version of GNR as GNR, but still actually like the songs. I think that might help in order for an album to "succeed".

[Bobbo]

^ lol. Case in point.

I called the album an overall failure. Not necessarily a flop.

[Spirit]

^ lol. Case in point.

I called the album an overall failure. Not necessarily a flop.

What's the difference between a failure and a flop?

[wasted]

It doesnt have to not sell much to be cult. Star Wars is a cult movies. Its really more about the followers.

[Bobbo]

^ lol. Case in point.

I called the album an overall failure. Not necessarily a flop.

What's the difference between a failure and a flop?

It sold about 3.5 million copies worldwide. So by 2008 standards, for your everyday run in the mill album, that's pretty solid. For a 14 year in the making, multi, multi million dollar album, it's pretty underwhelming. But technically speaking, it wasn't a "flop".

But the album was always going to sell a significant amount of copies based on it's history alone, that's a given. It failed, because a mere couple of months after it's initial release it fell off the face of the Earth, and nobody gave a wet fart. It didn't connect to an audience. The majority of people either found it mediocre, or just a flat out bad album in retrospect. Everytime you see a retrospective mention of CD the words "underwhelming" and "disappointment" are always close by. Most weren't convinced otherwise that Axl could produce a legit GNR album without Slash and co, and it left nearly no commercial demand for another nu album. Axl could never play a nu song again, and nobody (as in 95% of concert goers) would so much as bat an eye.

People didn't necessarily want an "Appetite II" with CD, they just wanted a really good rock album. CD didn't fulfill that need with the majority. That's why it failed. Plain and simple.

But again, if it fulfilled YOUR need for satisfaction, that's all that should matter for you. But it's asinine to attempt to rewrite or to dance around what's already well established.

[saber_]

Have the remainder of the Chinese-Democracy-era recordings achieved cult status?

[wasted]

They are more of a myth or legend.

CD is just another GNR album at this point, maybe it will become like Exile in 20 years.

[Bobbo]

You're missing my point buddy. And I can only speak for myself in this case.

I have never berated anybody for liking the album, or for thinking it's the best thing ever. I poke fun at the people who attempt to use every excuse in the book for why CD failed, why it's a misunderstood work of genius, and why it never had a shot at success, blah blah instead of just accepting the situation for what it is. I've got no problem with people liking the album, and discussing the qualities of the album that attract them to it. So why not just enjoy the album you like for whatever reason you like it instead of making endless, obnoxious excuses for why it failed and why it should be considered what it will never be considered? This and that and etc.

Nah, I fully understood what you were saying. Maybe not berated, but you definitely like to keep repeating lines like "it's shit", "no one cares about it". We get it man. No need to say the same thing worded differently (sometimes not even that) over and over again.

If you don't have a problem with people liking the album, why do you have a problem accepting that not everyone shares your opinion that it's not a very good album? Music is about emotion and some people really relate to a particular piece of music. Is it that surprising that some (in this case not a very large group) will maybe look at it with rose tinted glasses? And even if they're wrong, doesn't seem like they want anyone to repeat to them that what they love is shit. This is, after all, a fan forum.

I think you care too much about making sure everybody gets it 100% factually right. As in... "just enjoy it, but don't ever forget it's a piece of shit and no one cares about it."

Also failed in what way? it sold a respectable 3 million copies I thought. Got decent reviews too, so what's the problem?

I already explained why it's considered a failure in my above post.

Again, I was just making fun of the delusionals that can't seem to accept facts. The album's overall failure is fact.

Where did I state that I have a problem with people who like an album that I find bad? My point was never "just enjoy it, but don't ever forget it's a piece of shit and no one cares about it". It was "just enjoy it, but quit making stupid excuses as to why it failed and why/how it shouda been a success instead". I was stating my opinion that the album is (mainly) shit, but would never, and have never, talked down to people that believe that album is God's gift to man.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Bobbo

[Rovim]

They are more of a myth or legend.

CD is just another GNR album at this point, maybe it will become like Exile in 20 years.

If CD ll has songs on the caliber of Catcher, There Was A Time, and Better along side strong hard rocking numbers (Jackie Chan sounds like it has potential) it could be a more complete work that will get more recognition in the future.

If I only heard just UYI l or ll, I wouldn't be nearly as impressed. Those 2 were really just one album. I have a feeling Chinese is kinda the same, but all we heard is just half of it.

[Rovim]

You're missing my point buddy. And I can only speak for myself in this case.

I have never berated anybody for liking the album, or for thinking it's the best thing ever. I poke fun at the people who attempt to use every excuse in the book for why CD failed, why it's a misunderstood work of genius, and why it never had a shot at success, blah blah instead of just accepting the situation for what it is. I've got no problem with people liking the album, and discussing the qualities of the album that attract them to it. So why not just enjoy the album you like for whatever reason you like it instead of making endless, obnoxious excuses for why it failed and why it should be considered what it will never be considered? This and that and etc.

Nah, I fully understood what you were saying. Maybe not berated, but you definitely like to keep repeating lines like "it's shit", "no one cares about it". We get it man. No need to say the same thing worded differently (sometimes not even that) over and over again.

If you don't have a problem with people liking the album, why do you have a problem accepting that not everyone shares your opinion that it's not a very good album? Music is about emotion and some people really relate to a particular piece of music. Is it that surprising that some (in this case not a very large group) will maybe look at it with rose tinted glasses? And even if they're wrong, doesn't seem like they want anyone to repeat to them that what they love is shit. This is, after all, a fan forum.

I think you care too much about making sure everybody gets it 100% factually right. As in... "just enjoy it, but don't ever forget it's a piece of shit and no one cares about it."

Also failed in what way? it sold a respectable 3 million copies I thought. Got decent reviews too, so what's the problem?

I already explained why it's considered a failure in my above post.

Again, I was just making fun of the delusionals that can't seem to accept facts. The album's overall failure is fact.

Where did I state that I have a problem with people who like an album that I find bad? My point was never "just enjoy it, but don't ever forget it's a piece of shit and no one cares about it". It was "just enjoy it, but quit making stupid excuses as to why it failed and why/how it shouda been a success instead". I was stating my opinion that the album is (mainly) shit, but would never, and have never, talked down to people that believe that album is God's gift to man.

But you are concentrating on the (very) few people that think that. How many people here really think it's 'god's gift to man'?

You're just blowing shit way out of proportion. And when you say people are 'making excuses' it kinda has a negative vibe to it. Like you're some kind of authority and you have this personal standard that you apply to it for no good reason.

Stating your opinion is cool and all, but when you constantly shit on what others enjoy, it becomes pretty clear you get some sort of satisfaction from mocking people that enjoy the shit you don't.

Even if some here think that it's god's gift to man, why do you even care?

I mean, what did you expect in a forum dedicated to this band and it's albums? There are going to be people here who naturally love the work, so some lose objectivity when judging the quality (personally I think it's a great fucking album) but that's ok, that's one of the main reasons this place was created imo.

It's not a good reason to constantly spoil it for others cause you just have to repeat your negative thoughts on it.

It's like a broken record. Surely you can understand where I'm coming from with this.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Rovim

[wasted]

They are more of a myth or legend.

CD is just another GNR album at this point, maybe it will become like Exile in 20 years.

If CD ll has songs on the caliber of Catcher, There Was A Time, and Better along side strong hard rocking numbers (Jackie Chan sounds like it has potential) it could be a more complete work that will get more recognition in the future.

If I only heard just UYI l or ll, I wouldn't be nearly as impressed. Those 2 were really just one album. I have a feeling Chinese is kinda the same, but all we heard is just half of it.

CD is actually a stronger album than either UYI. It does have any covers either.

That is kind of what you expect, CDII will come out, even CDIII then it will be epic.

But I dont think CD has followers, its just a GNR. But there have been some pieces in the media like look again at this album.

With Back story so colorful I think its a record that will always be talked about, positive or negative and the record is too solid to be overlooked.

People will prob buy it as I bought Smile, Exile or Tumble Weed Connection, with some reading done around it to enhance the experience.

Its a pretty inspiring record but its probably more for people who will never really hear it. Its seen as Axls persecution complex writ large which doesnt play well with the entitled culture.

A trilogy would really make it a project worthy of rock history. Axls final epic statement.

[Rovim]

I really want to know who is the general. Also, what kind of sick shit was going down in Beta's barn.

[wasted]

Tommy is the general. Other refs are its a 70s war movie, and Buster Keaton movie about the Railroads. Ive always felt a niggle to The Art of War author. The General is also like the general population in Atlas Shrugged. The masses. With GNR you expect it to be a war general or something. General Pinochet? there are no clues. Baz daid it was pretty heavy metal.

Betas Barn has a very Brian Wilson vibe. You can imagine the cover, cartoon animals and band members drawn by Dj.

[Bobbo]

You're missing my point buddy. And I can only speak for myself in this case.

I have never berated anybody for liking the album, or for thinking it's the best thing ever. I poke fun at the people who attempt to use every excuse in the book for why CD failed, why it's a misunderstood work of genius, and why it never had a shot at success, blah blah instead of just accepting the situation for what it is. I've got no problem with people liking the album, and discussing the qualities of the album that attract them to it. So why not just enjoy the album you like for whatever reason you like it instead of making endless, obnoxious excuses for why it failed and why it should be considered what it will never be considered? This and that and etc.

Nah, I fully understood what you were saying. Maybe not berated, but you definitely like to keep repeating lines like "it's shit", "no one cares about it". We get it man. No need to say the same thing worded differently (sometimes not even that) over and over again.

If you don't have a problem with people liking the album, why do you have a problem accepting that not everyone shares your opinion that it's not a very good album? Music is about emotion and some people really relate to a particular piece of music. Is it that surprising that some (in this case not a very large group) will maybe look at it with rose tinted glasses? And even if they're wrong, doesn't seem like they want anyone to repeat to them that what they love is shit. This is, after all, a fan forum.

I think you care too much about making sure everybody gets it 100% factually right. As in... "just enjoy it, but don't ever forget it's a piece of shit and no one cares about it."

Also failed in what way? it sold a respectable 3 million copies I thought. Got decent reviews too, so what's the problem?

I already explained why it's considered a failure in my above post.

Again, I was just making fun of the delusionals that can't seem to accept facts. The album's overall failure is fact.

Where did I state that I have a problem with people who like an album that I find bad? My point was never "just enjoy it, but don't ever forget it's a piece of shit and no one cares about it". It was "just enjoy it, but quit making stupid excuses as to why it failed and why/how it shouda been a success instead". I was stating my opinion that the album is (mainly) shit, but would never, and have never, talked down to people that believe that album is God's gift to man.

But you are concentrating on the (very) few people that think that. How many people here really think it's 'god's gift to man'?

You're just blowing shit way out of proportion. And when you say people are 'making excuses' it kinda has a negative vibe to it. Like you're some kind of authority and you have this personal standard that you apply to it for no good reason.

Stating your opinion is cool and all, but when you constantly shit on what others enjoy, it becomes pretty clear you get some sort of satisfaction from mocking people that enjoy the shit you don't.

Even if some here think that it's god's gift to man, why do you even care?

I mean, what did you expect in a forum dedicated to this band and it's albums? There are going to be people here who naturally love the work, so some lose objectivity when judging the quality (personally I think it's a great fucking album) but that's ok, that's one of the main reasons this place was created imo.

It's not a good reason to constantly spoil it for others cause you just have to repeat your negative thoughts on it.

It's like a broken record. Surely you can understand where I'm coming from with this.

I don't care if people find the album to be God's gift to man. Me using that phrase was just emphasizing the spectrum of opinion here by the way. Whether people think it's a good, great, or even the best album ever created is fine with me.

It's the people who make the endless excuses as to why it failed to somehow justify why it should be considered a great album by more people, and why it shoulda been a huge success, instead of just enjoying what they like are the people I mock. Being a passionate fan is one thing. Being completely in denial and in total disarray over the reality of the situation is another. The latter is the only group I ever poke fun at.

It really is that simple, and the fact that you're still really confusing the issue here is mindboggling.

[Rovim]

Tommy is the general. Other refs are its a 70s war movie, and Buster Keaton movie about the Railroads. Ive always felt a niggle to The Art of War author. The General is also like the general population in Atlas Shrugged. The masses. With GNR you expect it to be a war general or something. General Pinochet? there are no clues. Baz daid it was pretty heavy metal.

Betas Barn has a very Brian Wilson vibe. You can imagine the cover, cartoon animals and band members drawn by Dj.

Also, Chinese had a James Bond theme. I kinda expect a Shaft tribute for CD ll.

[wasted]

I dont think there are any people making excuses for its failure. I havent seen much anyway. And scour this site 24/7. CD isnt really discussed at all other than people hating on it.

[Rovim]

Bobbo: I feel like we're going in circles here, so I'll just drop it, but to be honest, I come here everyday and I only ever recognized like 4 or 5 people here that seemed to be 'in denial' as you put it.

I think this band has a ton of baggage from the old line up to all the delays and the shit and the silence, so that caused some of the fan base to be extra spiteful toward people that do accept this band and what Axl did with Chinese as something legit.

I'll just agree to disagree with you on this one.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Rovim

[wasted]

Tommy is the general. Other refs are its a 70s war movie, and Buster Keaton movie about the Railroads. Ive always felt a niggle to The Art of War author. The General is also like the general population in Atlas Shrugged. The masses. With GNR you expect it to be a war general or something. General Pinochet? there are no clues. Baz daid it was pretty heavy metal.

Betas Barn has a very Brian Wilson vibe. You can imagine the cover, cartoon animals and band members drawn by Dj.

Also, Chinese had a James Bond theme. I kinda expect a Shaft tribute for CD ll.

Strings are pretty bond. I think shaft was name checked in relation ITW at some point.

But I would look at latter day Zepp maybe and Stones mixed with 90s electronica with all the 70s influences.

Atlas a glam Nov Rain

Soul monster sabbath riff

The General heavy metal

Goin Down kind of punk nightrain

Silkworms punk electronica

[Rovim]

Between CD l and CD ll, Axl could explore at least 20 genres or combinations of genres all done with the Guns approach. I'm down for that.

Show me how genres that are alien to Gn'R could sound like with the classic Guns sound backing it. Nu metal was just the beginning.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Rovim

[wasted]

CD seems to lean more to grunge in most cases. But Shacklers, Better have Korn NIN.

Have ever thought Scraped sounds like the riff from MJs Bad? as well as being like Deep Purple covering Crazy Train.

[classicrawker]

I figure in about 10 more pages this thread will achieve cult status...............

[TeeJay410]

The album's success and failure depends on perspective. If people honestly expected it to take over the world and go diamond, well yeah it failed.

However those were hardly realistic expectations to judge the album by. It was an album released by the washed up singer of a legendary rock act that hasn't put out an album of original material in 17 years. For it to sell as it did is actually sort of a miracle. The sales and reviews reflect exactly what the album up. A pretty good but not amazing album. Like any other decent but not great album, it was forgotten except by diehard fans. In this sense CD is rather unexceptional.

You don't have to be in "la la" land to say the album wasn't a failure. Certainly wasn't a rousing success but hell, maybe getting it out at all was the success.

[Mr. Dude]

I agree that the material is too strong to be discarded. I think its gained traction and respect as time sheds some of the baggage associated with it. I think there's some validity to Klosterman's statements that it signals the end of an era in the record industry. There'll never be that kind of investment of time, effort, energy, and money into a record. I think its something that people will revisit, a relic if you will. To say its mediocre, okay, or unremarkable doesn't seem right to me. I can see really loving it and I can understand hating it. Some people just don't dig that kind of over-the-top, grandiose vibe. If you're the type who appreciates that kind of thing, its something to be reveled. I think its certainly something that has resonated with those who do. You can tell at the shows that people get into the CD songs. It takes a while for material to break down barriers and infiltrate the public consciousness. Look at Rio 91, craziest fans on earth- they're going apeshit for the AFD stuff, but look confused, bored, tame when they play the new stuff from the Illusions. It takes a while. People don't usually go nuts for stuff they've never heard before.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Mr. Dude

[magisme]

CD will take the general public by storm any day now.

[RussTCB]

CD will take the general public by storm any day now.

The definition of "slow burn" that's for sure.