Has Chinese Democracy achieved cult status?

[username]

You guys try so hard. It's adorable.

And to what end? What's the endgame here?

If you like it, who cares? But why must go on this fool's errand to try and build it up and claim it achieved all these things.

You like it, cool. Few did. It happens.

If anything, people are going on a "fool's errand" to try to show that "nobody liked it except for people on this board." I have no problem with folks who listened to the album and don't like it, what bothers me is people who try to force their opinion that it's a shit album down everyone else's throat.

Really? You're bothered by yourself?

And Amazon? Really? I mean REALLY? So whoohoo, there are 250 people on the internet who like CD. Most of them probably do post here.

The key difference is that with cult albums is that it's very underground and not well known. Chinese Democracy IS well know. People are aware of it. They just don't give a fuck.

Stop trying to make excuses. Stop trying to make CD be a hit. It wasn't. Deal with it. People either didn't care anymore, or they thought it blew big hairy donkeyballs or they're among the 250 people in the world who think it's the best album ever made (and, incidentally, all wear tin-foil hats).

Touchy...

Again, you really don't seem to understand what a "cult" album is. I listed several cult albums earlier in this thread released by major rock acts. A cult album don't have to be "underground and not well known," although you could argue that CD is not well-known as most people haven't listened to it front-to-back. I posted the amazon stats to rebuff the claim that "most everyone" thinks that this album is shit.

Here's an example of an album that achieved cult status--Motley Crue's 1994 album. It was released in the spring of 1994 and was a huge flop (it shipped Gold but sold maybe 350k). Yet the album had its fans and there were people that loved the Corabi-era. Throughout the 1990s and beyond, even after Vince returned, there were fans on message boards that raved about MC94, some citing it as best Motley Crue album. So even if it "flopped," the album has its fans and has achieved cult status. Not every album that underperforms is a cult album, but MC94 was.

Fine, I concede. Chinese Democracy is totally cult. I bet that makes you very happy. Now please go away.

[RichardNixon]

How about you offer an intelligent, thoughtful reply? Or else you go away?

[magisme]

I keep going over it in my head and I just can't figure out whether CD or MC94 is more cult.

[Padme]

You guys try so hard. It's adorable.

And to what end? What's the endgame here?

If you like it, who cares? But why must go on this fool's errand to try and build it up and claim it achieved all these things.

You like it, cool. Few did. It happens.

If anything, people are going on a "fool's errand" to try to show that "nobody liked it except for people on this board." I have no problem with folks who listened to the album and don't like it, what bothers me is people who try to force their opinion that it's a shit album down everyone else's throat.

Really? You're bothered by yourself?

And Amazon? Really? I mean REALLY? So whoohoo, there are 250 people on the internet who like CD. Most of them probably do post here.

The key difference is that with cult albums is that it's very underground and not well known. Chinese Democracy IS well know. People are aware of it. They just don't give a fuck.

Stop trying to make excuses. Stop trying to make CD be a hit. It wasn't. Deal with it. People either didn't care anymore, or they thought it blew big hairy donkeyballs or they're among the 250 people in the world who think it's the best album ever made (and, incidentally, all wear tin-foil hats).

Touchy...

Again, you really don't seem to understand what a "cult" album is. I listed several cult albums earlier in this thread released by major rock acts. An album that has achieved cult status doesn't have to be "underground and not well known," although you could argue that CD is not well-known as most people haven't listened to it front-to-back. I posted the amazon stats to rebuff the claim that "most everyone" thinks that this album is shit. "Most people" have no opinion of the album because they never heard it. There is no real consensus that the album "blew big hairy donkeyballs."

Here's an example of an album that achieved cult status--Motley Crue's 1994 album. It was released in the spring of 1994 and was a huge flop (it shipped Gold but sold maybe 350k). Yet the album had its fans and there were people that loved the Corabi-era. Throughout the 1990s and beyond, even after Vince returned, there were fans on message boards that raved about MC94, some citing it as best Motley Crue album. So even if it "flopped," the album has its fans and has achieved cult status. Not every album that underperforms is a cult album, but MC94 was.

There was buzz around CD for more than a decade with leaks, with people close to Axl saying they listen to it, with the delays, with rumors about producers and colaborators. And if that wasn´t enough when it was about to finally see the light they made a agreement with 2 corporations Dr Pepper and Best Buy. GN´R itself is not a cult band. All these stuff tells me CD is far from being any cult type of album.

Of course CD has many fans around the world. And they are not necessarilly around forums. But that doesn´t mean CD is a cult album

[RichardNixon]

You guys try so hard. It's adorable.

And to what end? What's the endgame here?

If you like it, who cares? But why must go on this fool's errand to try and build it up and claim it achieved all these things.

You like it, cool. Few did. It happens.

If anything, people are going on a "fool's errand" to try to show that "nobody liked it except for people on this board." I have no problem with folks who listened to the album and don't like it, what bothers me is people who try to force their opinion that it's a shit album down everyone else's throat.

Really? You're bothered by yourself?

And Amazon? Really? I mean REALLY? So whoohoo, there are 250 people on the internet who like CD. Most of them probably do post here.

The key difference is that with cult albums is that it's very underground and not well known. Chinese Democracy IS well know. People are aware of it. They just don't give a fuck.

Stop trying to make excuses. Stop trying to make CD be a hit. It wasn't. Deal with it. People either didn't care anymore, or they thought it blew big hairy donkeyballs or they're among the 250 people in the world who think it's the best album ever made (and, incidentally, all wear tin-foil hats).

Touchy...

Again, you really don't seem to understand what a "cult" album is. I listed several cult albums earlier in this thread released by major rock acts. An album that has achieved cult status doesn't have to be "underground and not well known," although you could argue that CD is not well-known as most people haven't listened to it front-to-back. I posted the amazon stats to rebuff the claim that "most everyone" thinks that this album is shit. "Most people" have no opinion of the album because they never heard it. There is no real consensus that the album "blew big hairy donkeyballs."

Here's an example of an album that achieved cult status--Motley Crue's 1994 album. It was released in the spring of 1994 and was a huge flop (it shipped Gold but sold maybe 350k). Yet the album had its fans and there were people that loved the Corabi-era. Throughout the 1990s and beyond, even after Vince returned, there were fans on message boards that raved about MC94, some citing it as best Motley Crue album. So even if it "flopped," the album has its fans and has achieved cult status. Not every album that underperforms is a cult album, but MC94 was.

There was buzz around CD for more than a decade with leaks, with people close to Axl saying they listen to it, with the delays, with rumors about producers and colaborators. And if that wasn´t enough when it was about to finally see the light they made a agreement with 2 corporations Dr Pepper and Best Buy. GN´R itself is not a cult band. All these stuff tells me CD is far from being any cult type of album.

Of course CD has many fans around the world. And they are not necessarilly around forums. But that doesn´t mean CD is a cult album

That's fair enough, although I think one could argue that the album has achieved cult status.

[EvH]

Amazon customer reviews are probably the last source I would choose to rank a cultural product, tied with user ratings on IMDB.

[RichardNixon]

If anything, amazon reviews will give one a general sense about how an album is perceived.

[D-GenerationX]

If anything, amazon reviews will give one a general sense about how an album is perceived.

I don't know. I tend to see a lot of superfan reviews of albums. They tend to be over the top.

[wasted]

Definition of cult.

[RichardNixon]

If anything, amazon reviews will give one a general sense about how an album is perceived.

I don't know. I tend to see a lot of superfan reviews of albums. They tend to be over the top.

There is some truth to that, but look at an album like Van Halen 3 or LuLu (both of which I like), the fanboys haven't been all over those.

[TeeJay410]

I think if cult status is to be defined as a work that is under appreciated publically but has a small following of dedicated fans who often communicate their collective interest in the work the internet, then it's very difficult to say that it hasn't reached cult status, and we're in the church of the cult right now.

People have been trying to make the wrong argument saying the album was successful or not. That has little to do with it, unless you're trying to call it a cult classic, which does imply success and overwhelming critical response.

Outside the context of the album, it's a good overblown rock record that sold pretty well and was critically received fairly well. But the context is difficult to ignore. But there are some rabid dedicated fans of it, and the band itself.

Really Guns N' Roses in it's current incarnation is a cult band.

[username]

How about you offer an intelligent, thoughtful reply? Or else you go away?

Ok. I'll take the trollbait.

By your definition every album that flopped but has some people who do like it is a cult album. Following that definition I can draw 3 conclusions.

1. You're wrong.

2. By your definition CD is a cult album

3. It still sucks.

[ColdHeartBreaker]

It's more liked than fans of the old band would like to admit.

To me, Chinese is my favourite Guns album, not just because of the music but the whole experience waiting for it. I feel like I can say I was there when I'm older.

[D-GenerationX]

It's more liked than fans of the old band would like to admit.

To me, Chinese is my favourite Guns album, not just because of the music but the whole experience waiting for it. I feel like I can say I was there when I'm older.

Really?

Because I feel like I kept the faith for a decade all to be "rewarded" by the artist running off and pouting for a year and treating the whole thing like a nuisance.

It was in no way a positive experience.

[RichardNixon]

How about you offer an intelligent, thoughtful reply? Or else you go away?

Ok. I'll take the trollbait.

By your definition every album that flopped but has some people who do like it is a cult album. Following that definition I can draw 3 conclusions.

1. You're wrong.

2. By your definition CD is a cult album

3. It still sucks.

Trolling? Pot.Kettle.Black. I already answered that and stated that not all albums that underperform warrant "cult status." Do you have any thing else to add apart from telling me that my opinion about the quality of Chinese Democracy is wrong and stating that it's a fact that it's a bad album? Did you ever finish high school? I'd suggest taking some classes at a local jr. college where you can learn the difference between subjective and objective.

Edited December 27, 2013 by RichardNixon

[RussTCB]

It's more liked than fans of the old band would like to admit.

To me, Chinese is my favourite Guns album, not just because of the music but the whole experience waiting for it. I feel like I can say I was there when I'm older.

Really?

Because I feel like I kept the faith for a decade all to be "rewarded" by the artist running off and pouting for a year and treating the whole thing like a nuisance.

It was in no way a positive experience.

He wasn't talking about what happened after release, he was talking about the build up and album itself. For many of us, all of that was great.

[rudolf1978]

For the first year i liked it ,its been like 3 years since i dont listen to it ,and i dont think im going to listen to it

[Bobbo]

It's a cult of an album as K-Fed's Playing with Fire is.

In that case, congrats

[RichardNixon]

It's a cult of an album as K-Fed's Playing with Fire is.

In that case, congrats

I doubt that you could find more than a dozen people in the world with a K-Fed song on their i-pod.

[Bobbo]

Well we're talking about a small but loyal devoted fanbase, right?

I bet there are a few devoted kfed fans out there spewing "it's a misunderstood piece of art", "it wasn't given a fair chance", "it didn't get the audience it deserved", etc, etc,

Nu guns, as it's own entity, is not something people are anticipating much more than another kfed release.

In all seriousness it's not looked at anything other than a failed comeback album. That's it. And it's hilarious people can't just accept that .

If you liked the album, then enjoy the album. Who gives a shit? Just stop making it out to be what it never was and what it never will be.

[Rovim]

Well we're talking about a small but loyal devoted fanbase, right?

I bet there are a few devoted kfed fans out there spewing "it's a misunderstood piece of art", "it wasn't given a fair chance", "it didn't get the audience it deserved", etc, etc,

Nu guns, as it's own entity, is not something people are anticipating much more than another kfed release.

In all seriousness it's not looked at anything other than a failed comeback album. That's it. And it's hilarious people can't just accept that .

If you liked the album, then enjoy the album. Who gives a shit? Just stop making it out to be what it never was and what it never will be.

Looks like there are just as many people here concerned with making sure everybody knows Chinese is shit/a failure/an album that no one cares about as the few here who truly care about praising it in an unrealistic way (according to mostly people who dislike the record) Just because they don't like it themselves and in some cases, not even fans of new Guns.

A lot of time and energy invested in telling the fans who do like it that it's no good over and over again.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Rovim

[Bobbo]

Well we're talking about a small but loyal devoted fanbase, right?

I bet there are a few devoted kfed fans out there spewing "it's a misunderstood piece of art", "it wasn't given a fair chance", "it didn't get the audience it deserved", etc, etc,

Nu guns, as it's own entity, is not something people are anticipating much more than another kfed release.

In all seriousness it's not looked at anything other than a failed comeback album. That's it. And it's hilarious people can't just accept that .

If you liked the album, then enjoy the album. Who gives a shit? Just stop making it out to be what it never was and what it never will be.

Looks like there are just as many people here concerned with making sure everybody knows Chinese is shit/a failure/an album that no one cares about as the few here who truly care about praising it in an unrealistic way (according to mostly people who dislike the record) Just because they don't like it themselves and in some cases, not even fans of new Guns.

A lot of time and energy invested in telling the fans who do like it that it's no good over and over again.

Just what happens when the hardcore fanbase is as split in half as this one is. Difference is one side is just looking at things realistically, while the other is refusing to leave la la land. The reality of it is, the album failed. And it's hard not to poke fun of the people who use every excuse in the book and still go "well it coulda...!", "well it woulda...!", "well it shoulda...!", "well it mighta...!", instead of just accepting that it failed.

And it all boils down to this. If YOU (rhetorical) get personal enjoyment and satisfaction from the album, then just fuggin enjoy it. What difference does it make how most people perceive it? If you like it, then just fuckin like it. But for Christ sake, stop trying to make fiction reality. It is what it is and that's all it's ever gonna be.

[Rovim]

Well we're talking about a small but loyal devoted fanbase, right?

I bet there are a few devoted kfed fans out there spewing "it's a misunderstood piece of art", "it wasn't given a fair chance", "it didn't get the audience it deserved", etc, etc,

Nu guns, as it's own entity, is not something people are anticipating much more than another kfed release.

In all seriousness it's not looked at anything other than a failed comeback album. That's it. And it's hilarious people can't just accept that .

If you liked the album, then enjoy the album. Who gives a shit? Just stop making it out to be what it never was and what it never will be.

Looks like there are just as many people here concerned with making sure everybody knows Chinese is shit/a failure/an album that no one cares about as the few here who truly care about praising it in an unrealistic way (according to mostly people who dislike the record) Just because they don't like it themselves and in some cases, not even fans of new Guns.

A lot of time and energy invested in telling the fans who do like it that it's no good over and over again.

Just what happens when the hardcore fanbase is as split in half as this one is. Difference is one side is just looking at things realistically, while the other is refusing to leave la la land. The reality of it is, the album failed. And it's hard not to poke fun of the people who use every excuse in the book and still go "well it coulda...!", "well it woulda...!", "well it shoulda...!", "well it mighta...!", instead of just accepting that it failed.

And it all boils down to this. If YOU (rhetorical) get personal enjoyment and satisfaction from the album, then just fuggin enjoy it. What difference does it make how most people perceive it? If you like it, then just fuckin like it. But for Christ sake, stop trying to make fiction reality. It is what it is and that's all it's ever gonna be.

Works both ways man. If you fucking hate it, just not your cup of tea, think it's a failure then why recycle the same shit over and over again? Why care if someone thinks Chinese is the best thing since sliced bread?

Seems like it's just as important to some people to make sure fans of it know that it's not as good or big as they think it is.

I feel like in a fan forum it's more valid to sometimes be really generous about how good a piece of music is then to be always negative as shit about it and again, it's not like people here don't get hit on the head by non Chinese fans with how shitty they think it is. Gets fucking old.

Edited December 27, 2013 by Rovim

[Bobbo]

You're missing my point buddy. And I can only speak for myself in this case.

I have never berated anybody for liking the album, or for thinking it's the best thing ever. I poke fun at the people who attempt to use every excuse in the book for why CD failed, why it's a misunderstood work of genius, and why it never had a shot at success, blah blah instead of just accepting the situation for what it is. I've got no problem with people liking the album, and discussing the qualities of the album that attract them to it. So why not just enjoy the album you like for whatever reason you like it instead of making endless, obnoxious excuses for why it failed and why it should be considered what it will never be considered? This and that and etc.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Bobbo

[Rovim]

You're missing my point buddy. And I can only speak for myself in this case.

I have never berated anybody for liking the album, or for thinking it's the best thing ever. I poke fun at the people who attempt to use every excuse in the book for why CD failed, why it's a misunderstood work of genius, and why it never had a shot at success, blah blah instead of just accepting the situation for what it is. I've got no problem with people liking the album, and discussing the qualities of the album that attract them to it. So why not just enjoy the album you like for whatever reason you like it instead of making endless, obnoxious excuses for why it failed and why it should be considered what it will never be considered? This and that and etc.

Nah, I fully understood what you were saying. Maybe not berated, but you definitely like to keep repeating lines like "it's shit", "no one cares about it". We get it man. No need to say the same thing worded differently (sometimes not even that) over and over again.

If you don't have a problem with people liking the album, why do you have a problem accepting that not everyone shares your opinion that it's not a very good album? Music is about emotion and some people really relate to a particular piece of music. Is it that surprising that some (in this case not a very large group) will maybe look at it with rose tinted glasses? And even if they're wrong, doesn't seem like they want anyone to repeat to them that what they love is shit. This is, after all, a fan forum.

I think you care too much about making sure everybody gets it 100% factually right. As in... "just enjoy it, but don't ever forget it's a piece of shit and no one cares about it."

Also failed in what way? it sold a respectable 3 million copies I thought. Got decent reviews too, so what's the problem?

Edited December 28, 2013 by Rovim