Why did Buckethead leave?

[Jordan Rose]

I've just re-read the PMs I was sent by a few people over the years regarding Bucket and i've covered most of it but i'll just paste this in. It's from an old member here who knows Bucket a little:

He could ignore the bullshit from band members and hangers on like Del as long as he was playing music…that was the problem, no one was playing music. Musically he was limited, contract-wise limited, people just starting drama, and the promise by Axl to make the new material the focus for shows not being fulfilled, all added up. There is a time when you have to think of your own well being and mental state, getting away from idiotic drama.

The Axl statement concerning his departure, filled with falsehoods fed to Axl by the band members and hangers on, didn't help either. Buckethead was very hurt by that.

The 2001 formation didn’t gel because of the reasons mentioned above. If Stinson and Finck were out, replaced by…well anyone really, that band would have been unstoppable.

[The Sandman]

I still wonder if he didn't quit prior to the 2001 Euro Tour and his ulcer illness was justa ruse because Axl wasn't ready to go.

Pretty sure it was confirmed that he was legitly ill - and has sought treatment since on various other issues. I don't think that's the sort of thing you make up.

[Young_Gun]

I've just re-read the PMs I was sent by a few people over the years regarding Bucket and i've covered most of it but i'll just paste this in. It's from an old member here who knows Bucket a little:

He could ignore the bullshit from band members and hangers on like Del as long as he was playing music…that was the problem, no one was playing music. Musically he was limited, contract-wise limited, people just starting drama, and the promise by Axl to make the new material the focus for shows not being fulfilled, all added up. There is a time when you have to think of your own well being and mental state, getting away from idiotic drama.

The Axl statement concerning his departure, filled with falsehoods fed to Axl by the band members and hangers on, didn't help either. Buckethead was very hurt by that.

The 2001 formation didn’t gel because of the reasons mentioned above. If Stinson and Finck were out, replaced by…well anyone really, that band would have been unstoppable.

Surprised he didn't get along with Finck... Bucket has more talent at bass playing in his little pinkie toe than Tommy does in his whole body.

[sphere79]

Surprised he didn't get along with Finck... Bucket has more talent at bass playing in his little pinkie toe than Tommy does in his whole body.

I love Bucket but I severely disagree. His bass playing on his releases (when it's actually him) is very much that of a guitar player. It's basic, fundamental and simply reenforces the root chord; which is how guitarists usually approach bass playing. Tommy is a BASSIST first and foremost and serves the purpose while expanding and pushing the boundaries a bit more. Bucket is probably 100 times the guitarist that Tommy is but Tommy is the better bass player. It's not about technical skill, or how many notes you can hit it's just a certain groove and a feeling. Bucket's got the groove for guitar, Tommy for bass. Just my 2 cents.

[Young_Gun]

Surprised he didn't get along with Finck... Bucket has more talent at bass playing in his little pinkie toe than Tommy does in his whole body.

I love Bucket but I severely disagree. His bass playing on his releases (when it's actually him) is very much that of a guitar player. It's basic, fundamental and simply reenforces the root chord; which is how guitarists usually approach bass playing. Tommy is a BASSIST first and foremost and serves the purpose while expanding and pushing the boundaries a bit more. Bucket is probably 100 times the guitarist that Tommy is but Tommy is the better bass player. It's not about technical skill, or how many notes you can hit it's just a certain groove and a feeling. Bucket's got the groove for guitar, Tommy for bass. Just my 2 cents.

You talk of groove and feeling.....

[sphere79]

I'm talking about his playing on his studio albums, period. I've seen him live twice and he's never played live bass so I can't judge him in that environment. I'm not saying I love and revere "professional" music reviewers (All Music's people are usually surprisingly on-point though) but even this review of Colma has nearly the same sentiment: http://www.allmusic.com/album/colma-mw0000598071

"...but there are a couple of problems: the first is that Buckethead is a lousy bass player. Like many guitarists, he seems to think that playing bass is simply a matter of hitting the root of the chord on the downbeat of the measure. A real bassist could have contributed enormously to the proceedings (as Bill Laswell does in his guest turn on "Machete")."

He also criticizes the production on the album, which I'd also agree with. Many of the Bucket albums I own are sonically a reflection of their independent, lower budget studio environment and it shows. I'm not dogging Buckethead per se, it just is what it is.

[The Sandman]

His work with Les is perhaps further evidence of that.

[Desperado]

"Why did Buckethead leave?"

this is why

[Bruno P.]

:rofl-lol:

[snooze72]

I've just re-read the PMs I was sent by a few people over the years regarding Bucket and i've covered most of it but i'll just paste this in. It's from an old member here who knows Bucket a little:

He could ignore the bullshit from band members and hangers on like Del as long as he was playing music…that was the problem, no one was playing music. Musically he was limited, contract-wise limited, people just starting drama, and the promise by Axl to make the new material the focus for shows not being fulfilled, all added up. There is a time when you have to think of your own well being and mental state, getting away from idiotic drama.

The Axl statement concerning his departure, filled with falsehoods fed to Axl by the band members and hangers on, didn't help either. Buckethead was very hurt by that.

The 2001 formation didn’t gel because of the reasons mentioned above. If Stinson and Finck were out, replaced by…well anyone really, that band would have been unstoppable.

Well that's just it: Bucket's not a partier and has nothing in common with Tommy. I hung out with Tommy a whole bunch on Jesse Malin's 2004 tour and he's just like any normal bloke you might meet down the pub who likes to drink a lot. If you look at his upbringing and past and musical/social mindset he couldn't be further from Bucket's leanings. When Bucket left he said 'good riddance. best thing that could have happened for the band'. He did later on say 'ah, I miss the little Bucket'.

There is more i've heard which becomes more subjective hence I didn't mention before but since someone else can verify the gist of it i'll elaborate a bit. Remember the A-Group, B-Group recording thing? Well supposedly some were resentful of the influence and time Bucket had with Axl and the obvious fact that his writing contributions impacted more than anyone bar Robin. Tommy, having been there the longest, the rehearsal General and unofficial lockeroom leader when Axl's absent etc, particularly didn't like having to deal with this 'weirdo' who he couldn't control or manipulate who the sound and image of the band was starting to be built around. And there was nothing he nor anyone else who cared could do since Bucket was more talented than several of them put together. The idea that a lackey like Del should influence anything to do with band members and music is insane but he's part of the boy's club with Tommy and they had an agenda where Bucket was concerned.

Bucket, Brain and Robin were the only people who really wanted and expected to go places musically with Axl and push him and themselves. The rest of the guys were content with the travelling, lifestyle, money etc. Today Bumble's in the same situation they were.

On a personal note I find it impossible to believe that Merck lied and sabotaged Bucket/Rio4 etc in an effort to reuinite the old band as Axl has implied. They guy talked about the new band, music and plans with the excitement of a hardcore fan.

Also, at this point in the game, considering the drummer from Nirvana, who hasn't a tenth of Axl's talent an charisma, somehow started again and created one of the biggest, most loved rock bands in the world, I just wish Axl had used a new name and built the band around Bucket, Brain and Robin. They could have taken over the world.

I've been told it's more than just the lack of new music and the aborted 2002 tour with Bucket, hence why he's had absolutely zero to do with Guns since 2004, unlike Brain and Robin. Apparently several people in the camp never liked him, ostracised him and lobbied for his ejection, particularly Tommy and Del, which makes perfect sense because they're the two least likely to remotely relate to Bucket in any kind of way i.e. they're pretty boorish and laddish blokes. They pretty much openly bullied the guy. Bucket was prepared to ride that bullshit out but not indefinitely without the album or a tour. He regularly goes back and works with the same people from parts of his past, all except Guns, because 'Guns' is a dirty word to him now. Axl also owns a tonne of stuff that Bucket recorded which he'd love to use but can't because legally it's Axl's. After 10 years, and knowing Twat gets pulled out once every few years...it must be pretty depressing.

Biggest waste ever imo. Should have been Axl and Bucket on album number 3 or 4 by now, on the cover of Rolling Stone.

I know someone in the Buckethead camp (and cannot say who and how they are connected) but all this is true plus more. Apparently Robin and Buckethead did not get along well. Less open bullying like Tommy, but apparently Buckethead was really upset that Robin, who left the band so suddenly in 1999, was welcomed back with open arms in 2000 AND given the spot of being one of the lead guitarists. My friend also claimed that there were rumors that Buckethead quit as early as 2002-2003, and he was used as an excuse for the band not being able to play RIR in 2004.

Either way, as others have pointed out, Buckethead does NOT talk about Guns N' Roses at all, and it is sort of an unofficial rule with his people to NEVER mention anything about his tenure in the band. He even said the few times fans have asked Bucket about Guns N' Roses after shows, he has either completely ignored it, or in some cases walked away.

A lot of accurate info in this thread. Never any problems with Axl and Bucket, other than communication. When Axl shuts down or goes off on another track, its left to management to communicate (even though they can't communicate with Axl, either), and Bucket was the same way, he wouldn't talk to anybody including his own management. Axl throwing the blame that way was for management not being able to keep Bucket in the band. Re: Robin and Bucket, it was Bucket who absolutely hated Robin, nobody really could figure out why. Robin isn't the kind of guy to inspire that kind of reaction. But Bucket is really weird, it's not an act.

ETA: I`m going from memory, which is terrible, but I remember getting a call from management when the Euro tour was cancelled, and my recollection was that Bucket had been MIA for quite some time, totally out of communication, but was briefly hospitalized immediately before the tour (which wouldn't have happened anyway seeing as they hadn't heard from him in months). I think I was under the impression that management wasn`t too sure whether to believe the `ill`story or not.

And the A band and the B band was more like an A, B and C band, IMO, if you include the times Bucket and Axl were hanging out at his house (which is probably happening a bit now with Axl and DJ). The core group showed up for scheduled sessions every night (almost always without Axl), and Paul and Dizzy and maybe Billy and Chris and assorted guys would also be working on stuff (not so much together) aside from the scheduled times. I think that`s what the crew called the B group. (I think Josh and Billy were actually working on Perfect Ciircle material though).

The whole history is people jockeying for position and resentful of those who get up close up and personal with him, seeing as face time with the guy is so limited.

Edited June 19, 2012 by snooze72

[Jakey Styley]

This thread makes me hate Axl and what GNR has become.

[Guest Gunns]

Some cool insights about bucket, thanks to those that shared the info

cheers

[Young_Gun]

I'm talking about his playing on his studio albums, period. I've seen him live twice and he's never played live bass so I can't judge him in that environment. I'm not saying I love and revere "professional" music reviewers (All Music's people are usually surprisingly on-point though) but even this review of Colma has nearly the same sentiment: http://www.allmusic.com/album/colma-mw0000598071

"...but there are a couple of problems: the first is that Buckethead is a lousy bass player. Like many guitarists, he seems to think that playing bass is simply a matter of hitting the root of the chord on the downbeat of the measure. A real bassist could have contributed enormously to the proceedings (as Bill Laswell does in his guest turn on "Machete")."

He also criticizes the production on the album, which I'd also agree with. Many of the Bucket albums I own are sonically a reflection of their independent, lower budget studio environment and it shows. I'm not dogging Buckethead per se, it just is what it is.

Ahhh but nowhere in my original post did I simply restrict either Bucket or Tommy to studio albums. I compared their general talent at bass guitar.

[maynard]

can't believe robin and bucket didn't get along... that jam they did in RiR 3 was beautiful... and that solo at the end of PC was also great. they even worked together on the ghosts of mars ost.

probably buckethead being weird. from what i've heard, it's almost impossible to dislike robin finck...

a little offtopic: tommy is crap compared to buckethead on the bass.

Edited June 19, 2012 by maynard

[Yesterdaze]

I've been told it's more than just the lack of new music and the aborted 2002 tour with Bucket, hence why he's had absolutely zero to do with Guns since 2004, unlike Brain and Robin. Apparently several people in the camp never liked him, ostracised him and lobbied for his ejection, particularly Tommy and Del, which makes perfect sense because they're the two least likely to remotely relate to Bucket in any kind of way i.e. they're pretty boorish and laddish blokes. They pretty much openly bullied the guy. Bucket was prepared to ride that bullshit out but not indefinitely without the album or a tour. He regularly goes back and works with the same people from parts of his past, all except Guns, because 'Guns' is a dirty word to him now. Axl also owns a tonne of stuff that Bucket recorded which he'd love to use but can't because legally it's Axl's. After 10 years, and knowing Twat gets pulled out once every few years...it must be pretty depressing.

Biggest waste ever imo. Should have been Axl and Bucket on album number 3 or 4 by now, on the cover of Rolling Stone.

I know someone in the Buckethead camp (and cannot say who and how they are connected) but all this is true plus more. Apparently Robin and Buckethead did not get along well. Less open bullying like Tommy, but apparently Buckethead was really upset that Robin, who left the band so suddenly in 1999, was welcomed back with open arms in 2000 AND given the spot of being one of the lead guitarists. My friend also claimed that there were rumors that Buckethead quit as early as 2002-2003, and he was used as an excuse for the band not being able to play RIR in 2004.

Either way, as others have pointed out, Buckethead does NOT talk about Guns N' Roses at all, and it is sort of an unofficial rule with his people to NEVER mention anything about his tenure in the band. He even said the few times fans have asked Bucket about Guns N' Roses after shows, he has either completely ignored it, or in some cases walked away.

That's some of the most interesting info I've read on this forum in quite some time. When I attended an after party during the 2002 U.S. Tour, only Buckethead, Brain and Chris were absent from the get-together. I always wondered why Brain stayed on after Buckethead left. It sounds to me like maybe Tommy should have been given the boot back when. He was pretty stand-offish at the aforementioned after party,

Well that's just it: Bucket's not a partier and has nothing in common with Tommy. I hung out with Tommy a whole bunch on Jesse Malin's 2004 tour and he's just like any normal bloke you might meet down the pub who likes to drink a lot. If you look at his upbringing and past and musical/social mindset he couldn't be further from Bucket's leanings. When Bucket left he said 'good riddance. best thing that could have happened for the band'. He did later on say 'ah, I miss the little Bucket'.

There is more i've heard which becomes more subjective hence I didn't mention before but since someone else can verify the gist of it i'll elaborate a bit. Remember the A-Group, B-Group recording thing? Well supposedly some were resentful of the influence and time Bucket had with Axl and the obvious fact that his writing contributions impacted more than anyone bar Robin. Tommy, having been there the longest, the rehearsal General and unofficial lockeroom leader when Axl's absent etc, particularly didn't like having to deal with this 'weirdo' who he couldn't control or manipulate who the sound and image of the band was starting to be built around. And there was nothing he nor anyone else who cared could do since Bucket was more talented than several of them put together. The idea that a lackey like Del should influence anything to do with band members and music is insane but he's part of the boy's club with Tommy and they had an agenda where Bucket was concerned.

Bucket, Brain and Robin were the only people who really wanted and expected to go places musically with Axl and push him and themselves. The rest of the guys were content with the travelling, lifestyle, money etc. Today Bumble's in the same situation they were.

On a personal note I find it impossible to believe that Merck lied and sabotaged Bucket/Rio4 etc in an effort to reuinite the old band as Axl has implied. They guy talked about the new band, music and plans with the excitement of a hardcore fan.

Also, at this point in the game, considering the drummer from Nirvana, who hasn't a tenth of Axl's talent an charisma, somehow started again and created one of the biggest, most loved rock bands in the world, I just wish Axl had used a new name and built the band around Bucket, Brain and Robin. They could have taken over the world.

More, please. This is the best stuff I've read in years. Can you elaborate on the A-Group / B-Group comment? I'm not sure I follow. Were GN'R divided during recording sessions? I've been cursing Tommy's name all night. I wish I knew why he and Del felt threatened by Buckethead, unless they were so staunchly supportive of Robin. Of course, Robin still belonged in the band and wouldn't be the same without him, as they are now.

In any case, it somewhat comforts me to know that if Buckethead hadn't left in 2004, the ride would have been over by now anyways. I never saw that 2001/02 band lasting ten years, but the disappointment that the 2002 lineup never got to play their material properly still stings. If the record were released in September 2002 as planned, the world would have shifted off its axis.

Edited June 19, 2012 by Yesterdaze

[Nosaj Thing]

Thanks to Jordan Rose for this important information!

[Dazey]

Wow! What, nobody pissing their pants about an ex member thread in the current section? I thought Soul Monster would have had an aneurism by now!

[Crash Diet]

Wow! What, nobody pissing their pants about an ex member thread in the current section? I thought Soul Monster would have had an aneurism by now!

[SoulMonster]

Wow! What, nobody pissing their pants about an ex member thread in the current section? I thought Soul Monster would have had an aneurism by now!

That's just because you don't understand that I have nothing against seeing threads about ex-members here as long as it is relevant to Guns N' Roses, and the reasons for why Bucket left is clearly that. I just find it mildly annoying to have to wade through threads about ex-members' current lives because those are completely irrelevant to GN'R, and the fact that it is against the rules gives me a platform to express that very mild annoyance and perhaps ridicule the cupcakes who come here with the intent of trying to ruin my enjoyment of the forum by posting spam.

[Dazey]

Speak of the devil.....

That's just because you don't understand that I have nothing against seeing threads about ex-members here as long as it is relevant to Guns N' Roses, and the reasons for why Bucket left is clearly that. I just find it mildly annoying to have to wade through threads about ex-members' current lives because those are completely irrelevant to GN'R, and the fact that it is against the rules gives me a platform to express that very mild annoyance and perhaps ridicule the cupcakes who come here with the intent of trying to ruin my enjoyment of the forum by posting spam.

Really? So if somebody posted a thread asking about Slash's reasons for quitting you'd have absolutely no problem with it?

[SoulMonster]

Speak of the devil.....

That's just because you don't understand that I have nothing against seeing threads about ex-members here as long as it is relevant to Guns N' Roses, and the reasons for why Bucket left is clearly that. I just find it mildly annoying to have to wade through threads about ex-members' current lives because those are completely irrelevant to GN'R, and the fact that it is against the rules gives me a platform to express that very mild annoyance and perhaps ridicule the cupcakes who come here with the intent of trying to ruin my enjoyment of the forum by posting spam.

Really? So if somebody posted a thread asking about Slash's reasons for quitting you'd have absolutely no problem with it?

Exactly. Even if I feel that topic is a bit exhausted I would be interested in hearing what opinions people have and perhaps chime in. Remember, AFD was the soundtrack to my life, I am an old-timer and for me, that lineup will always be the best and most interesting.

[The_Universal_Sigh]

lol, right right....

[ShacklerBucket]

I'd like to know why there was hate between Bucket and Finck too. As much as Bucket seems to appreciate his fans I cannot see him walking away from someone just for mentioning GNR. Can you imagine someone going up to him and going "Your solo in There Was a Time" is epic and amazing and him just walking away? For me, Bucket seemed liek a new hope to the post-Slash band and everything that we saw as a public was just the beginning. And yes I am too bummed out that it never fleshed out the way that it should have. At least I got to see them live in 2002 and even then going to the show I didn't think it would happen.

[themadcaplaughs]

But Bucket is really weird, it's not an act.

Actually, a lot of it is a very immersive act. I've met the guy a handful of times, and while he is certainly a little off-center, his act is simply that, an act.

More, please. This is the best stuff I've read in years. Can you elaborate on the A-Group / B-Group comment? I'm not sure I follow. Were GN'R divided during recording sessions? I've been cursing Tommy's name all night. I wish I knew why he and Del felt threatened by Buckethead, unless they were so staunchly supportive of Robin. Of course, Robin still belonged in the band and wouldn't be the same without him, as they are now.

Essentially, there were 3 (or possibly more) different little groups that each contributed to little parts of the sessions. I'll try to divide them up, but I'll be ignoring Duff and Matt Sorum who really did not contribute to what became Chinese Democracy.

A Group: The main "band" that people would think of. Dizzy Reed and Paul Tobias writing riffs and song ideas, with Tommy and Josh providing instrumentation and contributing to these ideas.

The other two "bands" were not really fully functioning musical units per se, but little splinter groups that contributed in various ways.

B Group probably would have been Josh Freese working with Billy Howerdel, who eventually brought in Chris Pittman to jam. Billy was brought in to help with engineering, but apparently Axl was (understandably) very impressed with Billy's guitar playing and had him work with making some riffs. As someone else pointed out, most of this stuff probably ended up becoming ideas that evolved into material for A Perfect Circle. At the end of everything, Billy ended up getting one credit on Chinese Democracy (digital editing on "There was a Time") and Chris became a full-fledged member of the band.

C Group would be Buckethead, who Axl was introduced to Axl by Josh. Josh left the band shortly thereafter and Buckthead brought in Brain to play. I'd assume that Brain also jammed with the "A' group a bit once Josh left, but he mainly jammed with Buckethead on the riffs he brought in, and also worked to re-record all of Josh's parts.

As for why Del and Tommy were angered by Buckethead, and this is pure speculation, but I think they felt that Buckethead, the first person in a long time that had really become close to Axl and changed his views on how the band should function, was a moneky wrench of sorts to the situation. Buckethead had just been in the band a year, and was looking like he'd inspired Axl and was moving the band as much as the other groups had with about 4 years worth of material. There was also the fact that Del, one of Axl's closest friends, saw Bucket as an invasion on his influence, and Tommy (the "general") was no longer the band member with the most sway in the proceedings. Bear in mind that the 1/1/2001 show was literally the first time that Tommy and Robin would have even met Buckethead, and he was in many ways the focal point of the show besides Axl. Furthermore, both were incredibly turned off by his whole act.

As for Robin, someone earlier mentioned Robin did not have a problem with Buckethead, but from what I've heard Robin hated Buckethead as much as Bucket hated Robin. Buckethead did not see why he was having to share lead guitar duties (something he was fully capable of by himself) with someone who abandoned the band and joined back at the last second. Robin saw Buckethead much as Slash saw Paul Tobias, Axl's boy who was given more glamour than he earned.

I'd like to know why there was hate between Bucket and Finck too. As much as Bucket seems to appreciate his fans I cannot see him walking away from someone just for mentioning GNR. Can you imagine someone going up to him and going "Your solo in There Was a Time" is epic and amazing and him just walking away? For me, Bucket seemed liek a new hope to the post-Slash band and everything that we saw as a public was just the beginning. And yes I am too bummed out that it never fleshed out the way that it should have. At least I got to see them live in 2002 and even then going to the show I didn't think it would happen.

Buckethead felt like he was used by the band as a scapegoat for RIR in 2004, and felt that it was duplicitous of Axl to claim Buckethead was using the band for his own selfish means, and then all of his material was used on the final product.

[ShacklerBucket]

Thanks for anyone who provides legit info to this topic. If what Madcap says is true then screw Tommy Stinson and that hack writer Del James. Seems like Bucket came to the table with legit stuff to contribute even as Guns really wasn't a fave band of his as well as inspiring Axl and he just got treated badly by band members and people in the studio. Who wouldn't be burned by that along with a prolonged release date for the album and an aborted tour. I could see why Axl had the set list as it was for the 01-02 shows as it showed a few CD songs but most importantly showed that the then new band was a force with the songs, mainly Appetitie, that everyone knows and loves. Still I'm sure Bucket would have departed sooner than later as their shows have been pretty much the same. Hope his stuff is on any other released material.