Supreme Court Upholds Obamacare!

[bran]

What does using the term "developed country" have to do with healthcare? It's just a buzzword. We are also one of the few western countries that have the death penalty, universal taxation, nuclear weapons. There is no correlation and really doesn't justify it. Americans don't bend over to peer pressure.

i just want to know when europe became the all knowing all seeing standard for everything, "well europe does it damnit everyone should do it" give me a fucking break

[Graeme]

This law is going against what the principle of the US used to be. It used to be, work hard, get ahead, in a bad situation? Change it. I got ahead by working minimum wage and saving money while I had roommates. I paid for every cent of the school I went to from that money, and kept working my way to better jobs and saving money. Medical bills along the way? Paid for those too, no insurance.

This bill is now saying the government knows better than you, go against it and we'll punish you, don't bother trying to get ahead, we'll take from others to give to you, and if you earn something, it will be garnished to pay for others who don't. That is far from the American dream.

I thought I made it pretty clear in my post that there are plenty of people who work so much harder for no return, than those reaping the benefits of wealth throughout not just American society but the world. How does one quantify "hard work" and reward it accordingly? A lot of wealthy people do work hard for what they have, a lot inherit wealth, and yet more just happen to be in the right place at the right time. It's the random, chaotic nature of life.The whole ethos behind this is to ameliorate this inequality and to accept it as an injustice rather than to continue proliferating it. To provide for those people what chance and Geography could not. It's all very well to sit and say "change your situation," but unless you're going to sit and evaluate this on a case-by-case basis, how are you going to know if that's possible? And if we're talking about potentially saving lives here then surely it's better to err on the side of caution?

[WillieC]

I am not really worried. I have a feeling this will lead to retaliatory legislation. Most Americans are still against the insurance mandate and eventually this will trickle down. With an aging population and burdened young workers, I have no doubt that people will see the inequality here and eventually the laws will be made impotent.

[Dazey]

300 is market value to an individual such as myself, for good insurance. Companies rarely pay that.

And this is not a tax, it is a fine. And let's just think about this, what if someone can't pay for insurance. Well it used to be that they'd be motivated to stay in good shape, and live a more cautious lifestyle and it wouldn't cost them anything. Now if they can't afford it, they have to pay a fine, not a tax. A tax would imply that they are entitled to a service after paying for it. They receive no service after paying this fine, they still don't have health insurance, but they're still paying for it.

I know that's not typical but at the same time it's realistic and it was using the phrase "rewarding failure" that seemed a little excessive.

thats the problem the us isnt europe it is its own country.

The UK isn't "Europe" either, anymore than the US is "North America".

[DirtyDeeds]

I may never measure beer in milliliters, but I'm with the Europeans and Brits on this one.

Edited June 29, 2012 by DirtyDeeds

[bran]

I am not really worried. I have a feeling this will lead to retaliatory legislation. Most Americans are still against the insurance mandate and eventually this will trickle down. With an aging population and burdened young workers, I have no doubt that people will see the inequality here and eventually the laws will be made impotent.

i too think this will happen, once a president gets elected that has some kind of brains and now since this is now considered a tax and a budgetary item all they would need to kill it is a majority in the house and 51 votes in the senate

[Encuentro]

Absolutely. I don't think failure should be rewarded.

Failure or the inability to pay over $300 a head per month for decent insurance cover?

Can someone explain to me.why Obama care is controversial?

Forcing people to buy healthcare is considered unconstitutional if I'm not mistaken?

It not unconstitutional. It is within the Congress' power to tax. If one chooses not to buy health insurance, they will be taxed. That is the reasoning behind the Supreme Court's decision to uphold the mandate.

I know, that's what I said a little later in the thread.

300 is market value to an individual such as myself, for good insurance. Companies rarely pay that.

And this is not a tax, it is a fine. And let's just think about this, what if someone can't pay for insurance. Well it used to be that they'd be motivated to stay in good shape, and live a more cautious lifestyle and it wouldn't cost them anything. Now if they can't afford it, they have to pay a fine, not a tax. A tax would imply that they are entitled to a service after paying for it. They receive no service after paying this fine, they still don't have health insurance, but they're still paying for it.

They will still have health insurance. It's called the emergency room. That's where people without health insurance go when they are sick or injured. If they can't afford the bill, taxpayers have to pay it.

[Dazey]

I may never measure beer in milliliters, but I'm with the Europeans and Brits on this one.

Loving that you chose to make the distinction there!

[DirtyDeeds]

I may never measure beer in milliliters, but I'm with the Europeans and Brits on this one.

Loving that you chose to make the distinction there!

I know. Originally I didn't, but I went out and clicked the Edit function just for you Dazey!

[bran]

300 is market value to an individual such as myself, for good insurance. Companies rarely pay that.

And this is not a tax, it is a fine. And let's just think about this, what if someone can't pay for insurance. Well it used to be that they'd be motivated to stay in good shape, and live a more cautious lifestyle and it wouldn't cost them anything. Now if they can't afford it, they have to pay a fine, not a tax. A tax would imply that they are entitled to a service after paying for it. They receive no service after paying this fine, they still don't have health insurance, but they're still paying for it.

I know that's not typical but at the same time it's realistic and it was using the phrase "rewarding failure" that seemed a little excessive.

thats the problem the us isnt europe it is its own country.

The UK isn't "Europe" either, anymore than the US is "North America".

true lol

like i said i have no problem with fixing the health care system in the us but having a govt tell you, you have to buy it and then if you refuse fines and prison time(with a judicial system all ready over loaded )

we have government healthcare in the us already but it has failed due to government spending on stupid shit.

[WillieC]

When 2014 comes around and the people anticipating free insurance come to find that it wasn't what they expected, they are going to feel like they have been railroaded.

[Dazey]

And this is not a tax, it is a fine.

I thought the insurance premium was classified as the tax whereas the fine was a penalty for effective tax evasion. The service you would receive for the tax would be your healthcare plan whereas you would obviously not receive anything as a result of being fined for avoiding the initial payment. Not saying I agree cos you've given me a lot of food for thought that I'm still trying to figure out but that seems to be the way the supreme court have interpreted the legislation no?

Edited June 29, 2012 by Dazey

[bran]

And this is not a tax, it is a fine.

I thought the insurance premium was classified as the tax whereas the fine was a penalty for effective tax evasion. The service you would receive for the tax would be your healthcare plan whereas you would obviously not receive anything as a result of being find for avoiding the initial payment. Not saying I agree cos you've given me a lot of food for thought that I'm still trying to figure out but that seems to be the way the supreme court have interpreted the legislation no?

the tax is what they have been collecting to fund the program, once the law was inacted they have been collecting tax revenue to start the system in 2014. the fines are for refusal to pay for health insurance.

[AxlisOld]

Absolutely. I don't think failure should be rewarded.

Failure or the inability to pay over $300 a head per month for decent insurance cover?

Can someone explain to me.why Obama care is controversial?

Forcing people to buy healthcare is considered unconstitutional if I'm not mistaken?

It not unconstitutional. It is within the Congress' power to tax. If one chooses not to buy health insurance, they will be taxed. That is the reasoning behind the Supreme Court's decision to uphold the mandate.

I know, that's what I said a little later in the thread.

300 is market value to an individual such as myself, for good insurance. Companies rarely pay that.

And this is not a tax, it is a fine. And let's just think about this, what if someone can't pay for insurance. Well it used to be that they'd be motivated to stay in good shape, and live a more cautious lifestyle and it wouldn't cost them anything. Now if they can't afford it, they have to pay a fine, not a tax. A tax would imply that they are entitled to a service after paying for it. They receive no service after paying this fine, they still don't have health insurance, but they're still paying for it.

They will still have health insurance. It's called the emergency room. That's where people without health insurance go when they are sick or injured. If they can't afford the bill, taxpayers have to pay it.

And now they can afford it even less, because they'll be fined beforehand. We also have Medicare and Medicaid. If you have the money you'll be billed from the emergency room. If you don't, the taxpayers eat it. So why are we now making the taxpayers eat more of the bill than before, and fining people who already can't afford it?

And Romney is not a hypocrite because his was passed ON A STATE LEVEL. What do people not get about the differences in state and federal power?

[arnold layne]

This sounds like horseshit. I don't want to pay for insurance.

[Zint]

I may never measure beer in milliliters, but I'm with the Europeans and Brits on this one.

Went all through school and then they switched us to metric.

[WillieC]

In America, you can legally refuse medical care. Just look at JWs and blood transfusions. However, it is now made illegal to not pay for medical insurance for medical care. Absolutely contradictory.

Edited June 29, 2012 by WillieC

[bran]

In America, you can legally refuse medical care. Just look at JWs and blood transfusions. However, it is now made illegal to not pay for medical insurance for medical care. Absolutely contradictory.

i know and people act like their isnt free healthcare already. medicaid and medicare are free healthcare you have a prescription that costs 200 or 300 hundred dollars on medicaid is literally 2 dollars

ive seen people who have medicaid get free everything including getting a full dental job done for less than 40 dollars. government fucked that system up and instead of fixing it and changing it they instead decide to implement a new system yet when asked about their health care and if they would be getting the same health care system as the poor in the us the congress basically laughed why? because when they retire they get a full pention plan full of free (private) healthcare. they wont have to wait forever to get something done, need an operation joe schmoe waits 3 years while congress gets in and out whenever they want.

this plan is going to fall square on the already over burdened middle class(whats left of it anyway) the rich who want to keep their healthcare will just pay the fines

[WillieC]

In America, you can legally refuse medical care. Just look at JWs and blood transfusions. However, it is now made illegal to not pay for medical insurance for medical care. Absolutely contradictory.

i know and people act like their isnt free healthcare already. medicaid and medicare are free healthcare you have a prescription that costs 200 or 300 hundred dollars on medicaid is literally 2 dollars

ive seen people who have medicaid get free everything including getting a full dental job done for less than 40 dollars. government fucked that system up and instead of fixing it and changing it they instead decide to implement a new system yet when asked about their health care and if they would be getting the same health care system as the poor in the us the congress basically laughed why? because when they retire they get a full pention plan full of free (private) healthcare. they wont have to wait forever to get something done, need an operation joe schmoe waits 3 years while congress gets in and out whenever they want.

this plan is going to fall square on the already over burdened middle class(whats left of it anyway) the rich who want to keep their healthcare will just pay the fines

Definitely. I think the middle class will get screwed if this really pans out. This forced subsidization will be a huge economic burden on the United States.

[Apollo]

Americans are against health care for all because we know Americans. We're fat and take take pride in our unhealthy lifestyle and now it is legally required that our tax dollars subsidize it. I am healthy, and can afford to pay for health care and choose not to, I can also afford treatment for anything I should happen to do to myself. I am now going to be fined because I am in good enough shape to not need health care. Fuck Obama, fuck fat, decrepit, diabetes people with one foot eating at McDonald's everyday, fuck the Supreme Court, and apparently, fuck the Constitution.

Although I wouldn't be as extreme as you are, I agree with your basic premise.

We need less government in our lives, not more.

And there is a ton of free health care available in the US. For the elderly, to the poor, to children, single parents, etc.

In my state we have a thing called Denali Kid Care that is free health insurance for kids from birth through 18 years old, and I think for a full year for the pregnant mother. Free.

[bran]

Americans are against health care for all because we know Americans. We're fat and take take pride in our unhealthy lifestyle and now it is legally required that our tax dollars subsidize it. I am healthy, and can afford to pay for health care and choose not to, I can also afford treatment for anything I should happen to do to myself. I am now going to be fined because I am in good enough shape to not need health care. Fuck Obama, fuck fat, decrepit, diabetes people with one foot eating at McDonald's everyday, fuck the Supreme Court, and apparently, fuck the Constitution.

Although I wouldn't be as extreme as you are, I agree with your basic premise.

We need less government in our lives, not more.

And there is a ton of free health care available in the US. For the elderly, to the poor, to children, single parents, etc.

In my state we have a thing called Denali Kid Care that is free health insurance for kids from birth through 18 years old, and I think for a full year for the pregnant mother. Free.

yeah and thats the thing people are acting like its not their and poor people just cant get health care which is bullshit. where i live if you make under i think its 20 or 25k a year you can go to a doctor and pay 20 or 30 dollars for the visit and then they slide the fee. every time you go the emergency room they give you a dozen documents for help paying for healthcare and paying for a bill, when i was 16 i had to go to the emergency room i had no insurance and the bill was 900 dollars after i filled out the paperwork my bill went to 125 dollars which i was allowed to pay in 6 payments of 20 dollars

[Dazey]

And there is a ton of free health care available in the US. For the elderly, to the poor, to children, single parents, etc.

In my state we have a thing called Denali Kid Care that is free health insurance for kids from birth through 18 years old, and I think for a full year for the pregnant mother. Free.

That's sweet! We've got something similar, it's free healthcare for kids from birth until death with no fines and no squabbling with silly insurance companies. I don't think it'll catch on but it sounds nice in theory.

[Gordon Comstock]

I may never measure beer in milliliters, but I'm with the Europeans and Brits on this one.

Ok, so I'm a little high right now, but that totally mindfucked me. Like, "What the fuck does it say on his beer where the '330 ml' is supposed to go!?". I then decided it was probably some bullshit in ounces. I don't really care enough to google it, but yea, but I thought you should know that.

What the fuck does it say where the ml goes!?

[bran]

the thing i was wondering is if this is a tax( which obama said it wasnt when he tried to get the thing to pass) and therefore a tax increase, since all money and all taxes need to be put into a budget could the house keep putting this increase out of the budget passing it and then moving it to the senate where the senate can chage budgets but it would have to go back to the house where they would just change it again, just wondering lol

[Johnny Drama]

Can't thw US just have good Medicare that essentially covers everything like we have in Australia? We only pay like 1.5% of taxable income for it anyway.