MSL discusses Guns n Roses

[magisme]

Post the full documents or shut the fuck up.

[ITG]

Are we allowed to use Axl as a reference, or no?

MSL was making public allegations "broadcast" from his own web site and here too. Some of the statements were in passive language or in a question format but other statements were more direct. Although a case could be made that this substantiated libel, it would be hard to measure the damage though because no one really cares about MSL.

Sure, they could have sued Axl but like the name, they probably just don't care anymore and have moved on. By the way, Alan Niven pointed out long ago that he was out of the band at the point Axl is referencing him in your quote as the manager trying to sell him out. Axl's explanation didn't jive.

[ITG]

MSL is more than connecting the dots. He's making naive leaps of faith feigning a knowledge in partnership and contract law. He doesn't know what he is talking about. He should just post the docs and go away. He doesn't have anything to add to his own thread.

InThisGrave, your negative attitude is completely ruining this thread.

Whether you believe MSL or not, even though proof has been presented, you're getting out of line here when you start promoting lawsuits and going personal with this.

So MSL damaging the public reputations of Slash and Duff intentionally or recklessly should be ignored? I think you should come up with an argument other than simply expressing your disappointment. Slash and Duff are real people that make a living based on their public image. There is a possibility of MSL damaging them financially by harming their public images.

[RussTCB]

MSL is more than connecting the dots. He's making naive leaps of faith feigning a knowledge in partnership and contract law. He doesn't know what he is talking about. He should just post the docs and go away. He doesn't have anything to add to his own thread.

InThisGrave, your negative attitude is completely ruining this thread.

Whether you believe MSL or not, even though proof has been presented, you're getting out of line here when you start promoting lawsuits and going personal with this.

We have a full staff of mods and admins who monitor things and let users know if they're causing problems or out of line. So far as any of us are concerns, InTheGrave hasn't do so.

Post the full documents or shut the fuck up.

magisme and several other users have posted this same sentiment and it keeps being ignored. Posting of the full docs would appease pretty much everyone involved in the debate.

[AndreCC]

MSL is more than connecting the dots. He's making naive leaps of faith feigning a knowledge in partnership and contract law. He doesn't know what he is talking about. He should just post the docs and go away. He doesn't have anything to add to his own thread.

InThisGrave, your negative attitude is completely ruining this thread.

Whether you believe MSL or not, even though proof has been presented, you're getting out of line here when you start promoting lawsuits and going personal with this.

So MSL damaging the public reputations of Slash and Duff intentionally or recklessly should be ignored? I think you should come up with an argument other than simply expressing your disappointment. Slash and Duff are real people that make a living based on their public image. There is a possibility of MSL damaging them financially by harming their public images.

So you're ok with Slash and Duff damaging Axl's public image, but you're not ok that in your own view Slash and Duff's public image are being damaged?! Explain that.

Nobody is damaging anyone. We're all fans and we're just trying to find the public facts that allow us to have a conclusion on what really happened.

[MB.]

So, is it so difficult to accept they probably lied? They were idiots and Axl should never made them sign it.

What's the big deal here? It doesn't make Axl any better, since he had them sign those papers anyway. The story about how the signing happened, is just a little different. So what? They lied about it, maybe started to believe the story themselves, who knows? But still it doesn't change the fact, that Axl shouldn't had them sign the contract in the first place.

Edited December 5, 2013 by MBRose

[wasted]

there's definitely great GNR songs on CD. Better, IRS, Catcher could all be classic GNR with Prostitute Axl is in full effect.

[Damn_Smooth]

Axl says they're lying too.

Never happened, all made up, fallacy and fantasy. Not one single solitary thread of truth to it. Had that been the case I would’ve have been cremated years ago legally, could’ve cleaned me out for the name and damages. It's called under duress with extenuating circumstances. In fact the time that was mentioned the attorneys were all in Europe with us dealing with Adler depositions.

Couldn't talk sooner as it could have jeopardized whatever nonsense was going on.

When Guns renegotiated our contract with Geffen I had the bit about the name added in as protection for myself as I had come up with the name and then originally started the band with it. It had more to do with management than the band as our then manager was always tryin’ to convince someone they should fire me. As I had stopped speaking with him he sensed his days were numbered and was bending any ear he could along with attempting to sell our renegotiation out for a personal payday from Geffen.

It was added to the contract and everyone signed off on it. It wasn’t hidden in fine print etc as you had to initial the section verifying you had acknowledged it.

Now at that time I didn’t know or think about brand names or corporate value etc. All I knew is that I came in with the name and from day one everyone had agreed to it being mine should we break up and now it was in writing.

I still didn’t grasp any other issues until long after I’d left and formed a new partnership which was only an effort to salvage Guns not steal it.

In my opinion the reality of the shift and the public embarrassment and ridicule by others (which included a lot of not so on the level business types he was associating with at the time) for not contesting the rights to the brand name, were more than Slash could openly face. Also we aren’t lawyers or formally business educated so it was just a matter of all of us being naïve and doing what we thought was right at the time. Slash was imo being on the up and up in agreeing I had the rights and I wasn’t trying to be some snake in the grass pulling a fast one. The others could’ve cared less.

But when the reality of the breakup hit and the strategy to have me crawl back was put into play Slash had to save face and get business team and public support. Painting me as the one who held a crowd hostage forcing the others to sign over the name worked out pretty well in that regard. I’m the bad guy and Duff, the fans and most importantly himself were the victims. Oh and they had actually made the sacrifice for the crowd, the people, the fans at the show. But again…. IT NEVER HAPPENED.

Media and others ignorantly, wrongly and falsely harped on about it at mine and the fans expense for years and Slash has hoped to use all that to continually sue and have some sort of legal nonsense going on behind the scenes in an effort to reverse things. He wouldn’t have been able to get the support and action on the part of his various team members over the years to do so if the truth were out there especially when the statute of limitations had run out years ago.

Why keep the name? I’m literally the last man standing. Not bragging, not proud. It’s been a fucking nightmare but I didn’t leave Guns and I didn’t drive others out. With Slash it’s been nothing more than pure strategy and saving face while manipulating the public like he used to me. I earned the right to protect my efforts and to be able to take advantage of our contract I’d worked hard for where Slash’s exact words were that he didn’t care. I get that some like a different version or lineup the same way some like a specific team line up or a particular year of a specific car but because you and I are getting played I’m supposed to throw the baby out with the bath water?

Are we allowed to use Axl as a reference, or no?

You of all people should know that the truth doesn't matter when Slash needs defending.

[AndreCC]

So, is it so difficult to accept they probably lied? They were idiots and Axl should never made them sign it.

What's the big deal here? It doesn't make Axl any better, since he had them sign those papers anyway. The story about how the signing happened, is just a little different. So what? They lied about it, maybe started to believe the story themselves, who knows? But still it doesn't change the fact, that Axl shouldn't had them sign the contract in the first place.

If it was to protect himself, why shouldn't he?!

[MB.]

So, is it so difficult to accept they probably lied? They were idiots and Axl should never made them sign it.

What's the big deal here? It doesn't make Axl any better, since he had them sign those papers anyway. The story about how the signing happened, is just a little different. So what? They lied about it, maybe started to believe the story themselves, who knows? But still it doesn't change the fact, that Axl shouldn't had them sign the contract in the first place.

If it was to protect himself, why shouldn't he?!

That's what he says, that doesn't have to be the truth. Just like Slash and Duff's story isn't the truth.

[magisme]

Post the full documents or shut the fuck up.

magisme and several other users have posted this same sentiment and it keeps being ignored. Posting of the full docs would appease pretty much everyone involved in the debate.

It's a classic move by politicians and con men. Ignore undesirable yet salient points and questions and have faith that the yellers and screamers will carry the conversation away to a topic you can more easily manage. Smoke and mirrors 101.

Again, I'm not saying Slash and Duff didn't lie or misremember or whatever, but I am saying at this point that MLS's goal here is not to help the fans get to the truth. He's here for attention. That much is obvious. So he can fuck off until he shares the PUBLIC INFORMATION that he supposedly has.

[AndreCC]

So, is it so difficult to accept they probably lied? They were idiots and Axl should never made them sign it.

What's the big deal here? It doesn't make Axl any better, since he had them sign those papers anyway. The story about how the signing happened, is just a little different. So what? They lied about it, maybe started to believe the story themselves, who knows? But still it doesn't change the fact, that Axl shouldn't had them sign the contract in the first place.

If it was to protect himself, why shouldn't he?!

That's what he says, that doesn't have to be the truth. Just like Slash and Duff's story isn't the truth.

It is well known that Alan Niven suggested the other band members that they should fire Axl. (For the late starts and everything that was going on at the time)

He actually admitted that on his interview. When Doug knew about it he went and told Axl.

[RussTCB]

Post the full documents or shut the fuck up.

magisme and several other users have posted this same sentiment and it keeps being ignored. Posting of the full docs would appease pretty much everyone involved in the debate.

It's a classic move by politicians and con men. Ignore undesirable yet salient points and questions and have faith that the yellers and screamers will carry the conversation away to a topic you can more easily manage. Smoke and mirrors 101.

Again, I'm not saying Slash and Duff didn't lie or misremember or whatever, but I am saying at this point that MLS's goal here is not to help the fans get to the truth. He's here for attention. That much is obvious. So he can fuck off until he shares the PUBLIC INFORMATION that he supposedly has.

This.

I think it's really important that users keep things like this in mind.

[SoulMonster]

My understanding on Memo of Understanding's and Intention Agreements: They say that the parties intend or want to do some collaboration or make some agreement in the future on a specific issue, but doesn't typically provide provisions in regards to what should happen if one party changes opinion and doesn't want on a later date to go ahead with the collaboration. Such Memo's have little value for the involved parties themselves because they already agree, but are useful to demonstrate intent to third parties, like Boards, shareholders and even management further up in large organizations. This is just how it is in my industry, it could very well be different other places.

But do you agree that such a document as a MoU could not constitute a legal basis for Axl's ownership of Guns N' Roses? There has to be a subsequent document. If this Memo is all Axl has, it is a fair bet that Slash, possessing knowledge that he would have a halfway decent chance of claiming ownership of the name or at least stopping Axl's incarnation of Guns N’ Roses, would have dragged Axl through the courts on it. (We may have ended up with a LA Guns or Queensrÿche type situation!). This is a fair guess as we know Slash and Duff were suing Axl over just about everything in 2004-05, from film licenses to errant money.

I am going to be very careful about saying that such a MoU could or could not constitute a legal basis. I believe you can have all kinds of agreements in-between a typical MoU which can provide no legal basis and a more proper legally binding Agreement with provisions, compensations. terminations clauses etc. It really depends on the content of the MoU, not the name, and without disclosure of the full document I will not dare to conclude. I am firmly on the fence until I see the full document.

That being said, I don't interpret MSL's reluctance to give us the complete document as evidence that doing so would hurt his argument. I don't jump to the conclusion that he is hiding pages that would ruin his argument. That would be stupid of him because anyone could go the Court, pay a fee and obtain the documents for themselves, and hence strip away whatever credibility he might have left. He is not that stupid. MSL is motivated by providing just enough evidence to support his argument while still keeping something back for trading and to preserve his own status as an insider.

Edited December 5, 2013 by SoulMonster

[Young_Gun]

Even though Axl founded the band, named the band, fronted the band and was the primary songwriter, the fucking replacement bassist & guitarist that joined Axl's existing band could have kicked him out of his band and ended up with it.

This quote here should show everyone that MSL is batshit crazy and delusional. Don't bother debating with an idiot like him folks, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

[SoulMonster]

Even though Axl founded the band, named the band, fronted the band and was the primary songwriter, the fucking replacement bassist & guitarist that joined Axl's existing band could have kicked him out of his band and ended up with it.

This quote here should show everyone that MSL is batshit crazy and delusional. Don't bother debating with an idiot like him folks, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I only now saw that quote by MSL. Does this mean that it was stipulated that a simply majority vote would be sufficient? Is this publicly disclosed info or mere assumptions from MSL?

[Damn_Smooth]

Even though Axl founded the band, named the band, fronted the band and was the primary songwriter, the fucking replacement bassist & guitarist that joined Axl's existing band could have kicked him out of his band and ended up with it.

This quote here should show everyone that MSL is batshit crazy and delusional. Don't bother debating with an idiot like him folks, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

I only now saw that quote by MSL. Does this mean that it was stipulated that a simply majority vote would be sufficient? Is this publicly disclosed info or mere assumptions from MSL?

I think it's a common assumption based off of Axl wanting the name in the first place. Just my guess though, I'm not pretending to know something that I don't.

[dalsh327]

Hubba Bubba & In This Grave -

Slash and Duff's complaint outlines the timeline for the changes to GNR's business arrangements and enters into evidence the documents that changed the business arrangements.

That is why the 1992 partnership agreement and 1995 withdrawal letter (exhibits A & B) are public record.

This supposed mythical contract from 1993 does not exist. Any changes to the '92 agreement would have been mentioned in the lawsuit and entered into evidence. The '95 withdrawal letter also only makes mention of the '92 agreement.

Had GNR's operations been governed in any way by some additional 1993 agreement, it would have been mentioned in Axl's '95 letter and mentioned in Slash and Duff's '04 lawsuit (not to mention entered into evidence with the other exhibits).

The lengths some in this thread have gone to grasp at straws is really quite extraordinary.

What many of you are missing is this:

With Izzy gone, if Axl did not have that clause protecting him, Slash & Duff could have voted him out of the band 2-1 and ended up with sole ownership of Guns N' Roses.

Even though Axl founded the band, named the band, fronted the band and was the primary songwriter, the fucking replacement bassist & guitarist that joined Axl's existing band could have kicked him out of his band and ended up with it.

Why in a million years should Axl have agreed to carry on with Guns once Izzy departs if it meant Slash and Duff could just get rid of him at any point, he'd have no protection whatsoever, and two dudes that joined the band he founded would get to keep the name?

FUCK THAT. You'd have to be CRAZY to put yourself in that situation.

All we've read was Axl approaching Izzy about signing the rights of the name over, but we've never seen anything where Izzy actually signed it over. There had to have been some sort of termination or resignation letter, especially if he still had royalties coming in.

You can see what happened with Queensryche (2 bands touring with the name) or The Beatles and Nirvana (widows having decision making power on band business) on why Axl fought for the name. Pink Floyd - the reason why Rick Wright was on Momentary Lapse of Reason was so Roger was overruled, and then the lawsuits over the inflatable pig and The Wall happened. Roger won his Wall, the other 3 won the rights to use the name...which Syd Barrett named. I'm surprised his family didn't sue the band (because you could say Roger was cashing in on Syd's mental illness) , but Roger and Dave took care of Syd ever since they made it big.

When Izzy left, I wonder if he could have gotten a hold of Rob and Tracii and sued GNR over the rights to the name.

[DieselDaisy]

Even though Axl founded the band, named the band, fronted the band and was the primary songwriter, the fucking replacement bassist & guitarist that joined Axl's existing band could have kicked him out of his band and ended up with it.

This quote here should show everyone that MSL is batshit crazy and delusional. Don't bother debating with an idiot like him folks, they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.

This, by MSL, is not even a correct statement. The name Guns N' Roses came from both Axl and Tracii Guns' respective names, and Izzy Stradlin, who also was involved in the Niven-led discussions to kick out Axl, also has the status as a 'founding member of Guns N' Roses.'

[dalsh327]

So, is it so difficult to accept they probably lied? They were idiots and Axl should never made them sign it.

What's the big deal here? It doesn't make Axl any better, since he had them sign those papers anyway. The story about how the signing happened, is just a little different. So what? They lied about it, maybe started to believe the story themselves, who knows? But still it doesn't change the fact, that Axl shouldn't had them sign the contract in the first place.

If it was to protect himself, why shouldn't he?!

That's what he says, that doesn't have to be the truth. Just like Slash and Duff's story isn't the truth.

There's sides to the story, it's what they all see as their truth. Sometimes families tell stories that they believe to be true, and when you look into the legal documentation, either they were lying the entire time to you, or it's what they've led themselves to believe.

OJ probably doesn't think he killed Nicole Brown Simpson. Maybe he was "in character" when the "character" killed Nicole and that's how he beat the lie detector. He's not in jail over Nicole, he tried to steal his property back from auction. It would be like Axl and Team Brazil breaking into Julien's to get the stuff Erin's auctioning back, but they'd be thrown in jail. Speaking of which...today's the 5th. I think the open house is today.

Edited December 5, 2013 by dalsh327

[DieselDaisy]

Why does MSL not leak the whole document then? That should tell us about the nature of document, as to whether or not it was legally binding, and, whether it is final (i.e. did not precede some other document). He is obviously witholding the remaining pages because they contradict the lie he is trying to construct.

[Young_Gun]

Why does MSL not leak the whole document then? That should tell us about the nature of document, as to whether or not it was legally binding, and, whether it is final (i.e. did not precede some other document). He is obviously witholding the remaining pages because they contradict the lie he is trying to construct.

MSL wouldn't do that!!! So he leaked songs that did not belong to him. So he blackmailed Guns N' Roses by threatening to release private documents on the bands inner-workings. He is clearly a guy who is sincere and doesn't have a deceptive bone in his body

Edited December 5, 2013 by Young_Gun

[Coma16]

Why does MSL not leak the whole document then? That should tell us about the nature of document, as to whether or not it was legally binding, and, whether it is final (i.e. did not precede some other document). He is obviously witholding the remaining pages because they contradict the lie he is trying to construct.

If people care so much they should go to the courts and get the entire document themselves.

[magisme]

Why does MSL not leak the whole document then? That should tell us about the nature of document, as to whether or not it was legally binding, and, whether it is final (i.e. did not precede some other document). He is obviously witholding the remaining pages because they contradict the lie he is trying to construct.

If people care so much they should go to the courts and get the entire document themselves.

Or, you know, the guy with a website who claims to be a fellow fan attempting to shed the light of the truth on the situation could upload the documents he says he already has.

[AndreCC]

Why does MSL not leak the whole document then? That should tell us about the nature of document, as to whether or not it was legally binding, and, whether it is final (i.e. did not precede some other document). He is obviously witholding the remaining pages because they contradict the lie he is trying to construct.

MSL wouldn't do that!!! So he leaked songs that did not belong to him. So he blackmailed Guns N' Roses by threatening to release private documents on the bands inner-workings. He is clearly a guy who is sincere and doesn't have a deceptive bone in his body

So... i'm assuming you didn't download those songs then. And i'm assuming you wouldn't have anything that doesn't belong to you in your computer. Right?