GNR Article on ESPN Grantland - Building a Better Democracy

[Ali]

Great article.

Can you point out what makes this a 'great' article? Is it the pretty language? His first bit of advice is that Axl shouldn't have allowed the hysteria which surrounded Chinese Democracy to detract from the real purpose of the process, the music. What the writer ignores is that it wasn't Axl who created and perpetuated such wild stories in order to garner an interest; it was people like Tom Zutaut.

He then goes onto say that Axl should have made a record more akin to what people percieve as GNR. Rather than attempting to reinvent GNR or make something remotely interesting, he advocates that Axl become a parody of a place which is now long gone. The writer recommends that Axl re-make a prior record with a slight spin or guise to make it seem 'new'. I personally would rather Axl exercise his sense of artistry and it completely go over the heads of the mainstream public than totally surpress his sense of artistry and make the record that everybody wants. I would rather he commerically fail and get eaten by the press for trying than to get on the cover of every single magazine by becoming an AC/DC churning out the same 'cock rock' record every so often.

I agree with your last sentiment 100%. But, at the same time, I can't deny that making a record with a more blues-based hard rock sound would be more easy to accept for a lot of people. It's true that stylistic changes often aren't well-received by at least a portion of a band's fan base (e.g. Megadeth's Risk, Metallica's Load and Re-Load, and U2's No Line On The Horizon).

Ali

[Guest NGOG]

But, at the same time, I can't deny that making a record with a more blues-based hard rock sound would be more easy to accept for a lot of people.

Granted, but the fact Axl didn't conciously try to 'stay GNR' shouldn't be levelled as a legitimate criticism of Chinese Democracy. Why can't the critic actually go into the material and issue his criticisms from there? The 'unGNR' label is incredibly lazy.

The second most notable criticism he makes about the record is also dubious. The writer claims that he gets the impression Chinese Democracy is not 'done'. Anybody that has studied the record in any depth says the opposite; that it's finished and more. That Axl literally had a record to go in the early 2000s but decided to go beyond that. He had a record and then some really.

But, at the same time, I can't deny that making a record with a more blues-based hard rock sound would be more easy to accept for a lot of people.

Granted, but the fact Axl didn't conciously try to 'stay GNR' shouldn't be levelled as a legitimate criticism of Chinese Democracy. Why can't the critic actually go into the material and issue his criticisms from there? The 'unGNR' label is incredibly lazy.

The second most notable criticism he makes about the record is also dubious. The writer claims that he gets the impression Chinese Democracy is not 'done'. Anybody that has studied the record in any depth says the opposite; that it's finished and more. That Axl literally had a record to go in the early 2000s but decided to go beyond that. He had a record and then some really.

[axlsalinger]

I have been on record stating many times on these forums that I always supported Axl's attempts to evolve the band's sound, and prefer the Beatles / Led Zep approach of changing with each album over the AC/DC approach of simply re-recording the same sound. That is not what the author is necessarily talking about though, as all Beatles & Led Zep albums still sounded like the Beatles and Led Zeppelin, didn't take years and years to record, and weren't recorded after the singer chased virtually every other band member away.

Axl created this circus of mystery around CD by taking so goddamn long to release it, and building up expectations to the point where they could not possibly be met.

Fair argument that some of the article's specific points about Chinese are kind of weak, I was referring more to the overall concept and the possible effect of CD on more recent long-awaited albums.

[DieselDaisy]

But there is just as much artifice in what Axl was doing (trying to include modern music into his sound such as industrial) as there would be if Axl had tried to replicate Appetite! I think what the author is proposing is a middle approach, keeping a GN'R sound while gently prodding in those modern directions. The better songs on CD (TWAT, Better, SOD) probably do this in fact.

[magisme]

Worshiper Myth #431:

Haterz want GNR to put out the same album over and over again like AC/DC, so they dislike Axl cuz he's an artist.

[hbkhbk]

Very Good

[Cosmo]

CD is an awful record but if others enjoy it, let them be.

You don't have the intimacy to call CD, CD, pi2loc. Every time you post about CD I want you to type Chinese Democracy to think teice about badmouthing it

[Amir]

Random Access Memories is far removed from Daft Punk's earlier work. It's not even just old disco, it's like disco of the future, in the same way Axl went for rock of the future with CD.

Street of Dreams is prob my least favourite off CD.

[abpagain]

Certain songs do feel "unfinished", which isn't really different than songs being overproduced. Probably songs were finished, then unfinished. The cut and paste deal. You can't argue with the cut and paste feel of CD, because the leaks prove it. Follow that up with CD artists Finck and Bucket and ...many others, taking no part in anything after it was released, plus according to my ears, Axl's voice changing (not different vocal styles but truly Axl clearly having different vocal abilities throughout the whole album) . Unfinished is one way to describe. Cut and paste is more legit. Shit, it's an accepted theory that Axl had new new gnr members add stuff just so it seemed that contributors seemed legit. Clearly, shit was "pasted" after the fact. It undid the finished songs.

Anyone who expected another AFD is a fucking retard though. I'm not saying AC/DC fans are retarded. They like what they like. That's cool. And AC/DC has stuck with that formula through the years because they do what they do. They aren't groundbreaking, but they aren't trying to be either. I'm saying that GnR is not AC/DC. Lies wasn't anything like AFD really. Illusions were nothing like previous. Spaghetti incident was clearly not anything like previous GnR shit. CD was expected to be a grand departure. Indeed it was. Had everything we have heard on CD come out in completed form (you know, when it was actually completed) I do believe that it would have been something really special. Yes, it would have pissed off AFD purists, but so did everything else GnR did afterwards. Granted, GnR sans Slash would have (did) alienate fans.

The weirdest part about this band is that the current band members sans Axl are probably more representative of the AFD era, yet are viciously defended by the CD fans and the CD haters (we don't hate all of CD but were a bit disappointed) hate the idea of current Guns n Roses trying to revert back to AFD GnR (or at least coming off as a nostalgia act) without AFD members which it seems is what is happening. That is my opinion.

Then you add in the facts that the current band is lacking the artists who were supposed to be influential in redefining GnR, and the front man neither looks nor sounds like anything that he is known for from any incarnation of GnR.

[wasted]

Axl has never said he was trying to make the greatest record ever, in fact he denied trying to make a masterpiece. Or even wanting to change GNR music that much.

Its really a media story based off the background stuff. Its Axls position he held that drew the negative attention.

In the end its just a very strong GNR album. Similar to what UYI could have been as a single album.

[wasted]

Also given Axls position, he could try something a little different. He didnt have to deliver a commercial record to pay the bills.

Another thing is theres two ways to market stuff. Like ACDC you go back and keep those fans. Or you change things and assume youll keep the old fans. For one record like Achtung Baby you make your move. Then you can always turn and pick the ones you left behind. So I dont think its such a bad thing. This way if Guns do a more hard rock sounding album people will be drawn back in. The problem is it dont really matter.

[The Linguini Occurrence]

But, at the same time, I can't deny that making a record with a more blues-based hard rock sound would be more easy to accept for a lot of people. It's true that stylistic changes often aren't well-received by at least a portion of a band's fan base (e.g. Megadeth's Risk, Metallica's Load and Re-Load, and U2's No Line On The Horizon)

The biggest conflict artistically between Axl and Slash was that Slash wanted to continue the blues-based hard rock sound that became synonymous with GNR, while Axl didn't.

Is it possible Axl wanted a completely different sound just to spite Slash? Are the artistic differences the root of Axl's hatred, or is Axl's hatred the root of the artistic differences?

[wasted]

Axl said this wasnt true, he was happy to work on Snakepit material. He did say he didnt want to do southern rock though.

Arent 4 or 5 of CD songs blues based?

i think Slash didnt want to do epic ballads, said do snakepit as it is or I go. Even Duff didnt agree.

I see it more on Slashs side. Axl may have been taking too long though.

[TeeJay410]

The article seemed more focused on the business aspects, in which case it was pretty damned spot on. Chinese Democracy was the model for how *not* to release a come back album.

One of the points I can not agree with more is that the record should have been released in 2000 when it was 99% finished until Roy Thomas Baker recommended that Axl re-record it.

[wasted]

RTB seems to be the big mistake because it cost 10 mil and delayed the album making Bucket quit. Whether the record or certain tracks got better I don't know. And the delay created this negativity about 14 mil and 14 years or whatever. When in 2000-2 it could have cost 4 mil and only been 6 years.

I think the article misses the point in reaching for this other one.

In the end it will only be the music that counts. They could have just done a GNR by the numbers but it wouldn't have eclipsed AFD/UYI. Those other bands with mediocre remakes of their old stuff sold themselves short. That's why however long it takes for me it's still Axl's way or the highway. We don't need a remake of the old GNR.

[T.wa.T]

Axl said this wasnt true, he was happy to work on Snakepit material. He did say he didnt want to do southern rock though.

Arent 4 or 5 of CD songs blues based?

i think Slash didnt want to do epic ballads, said do snakepit as it is or I go. Even Duff didnt agree.

I see it more on Slashs side. Axl may have been taking too long though.

I agree with this.

I would only add that Slash was trying to make a power move to get more royalties because of Izzys departure. And that added to the shit storm

[Guest Manny Manner]

Axl has never said he was trying to make the greatest record ever, in fact he denied trying to make a masterpiece. Or even wanting to change GNR music that much.

Its really a media story based off the background stuff. Its Axls position he held that drew the negative attention.

In the end its just a very strong GNR album. Similar to what UYI could have been as a single album.

I agree- I always saw CD as a logical extension of the Illusions records. Basically it sounds like GNR with a bit of an industrial edge to me. People who act like its a complete departure (usually) just do so to validate their argument that it "sucks," which it doesn't.

[scans n' copies]

The article seemed more focused on the business aspects, in which case it was pretty damned spot on. Chinese Democracy was the model for how *not* to release a come back album.

One of the points I can not agree with more is that the record should have been released in 2000 when it was 99% finished until Roy Thomas Baker recommended that Axl re-record it.

That's exactly what I took out of it, also. Great points. Still think there's a good chance that if CD had come out in 2000 or Nov 2002 we'd all be having different conversations about it and its commercial success.

Of course, after 11 years who knows how much we would even still be talking about it??? We might be talking about bucket's new mask or Robin's new hair cut.

[Guest Manny Manner]

After thinking about it for a day- I realize just how awful that article was. Here's what I took away from it- Axl should have played it by the numbers in order to turn as large a profit as possible.

[Guest NGOG]

Beatles / Led Zep approach of changing with each album over the AC/DC approach of simply re-recording the same sound. That is not what the author is necessarily talking about though, as all Beatles & Led Zep albums still sounded like the Beatles and Led Zeppelin, didn't take years and years to record, and weren't recorded after the singer chased virtually every other band member away.

I cannot accept that you should conciously try to stay GNR as the writer advocates. The Beatles and Zeppelin managed to retain a familiar style while experimenting because at no point did they have to replace virtually every musician which gave each band their identity. How could Axl possibly get, or even want to get Buckethead/Robin Finck to recapture the guitars of Slash while putting their own spin on it?

Another point, which the writer himself loosely acknowledges. Chinese Democracy isn't that different from the direction GNR were already beginning to take during the Use Your Illusion era. Not because Axl conciously tried to stay GNR as the writer advises, but because the move to epic was where Axl, to the dismay of others, wanted to go. There are only a handful of tracks on the record which you could say wouldn't have had a place in terms of style on Use Your Illusion. Even then those tracks are similar in nature to the mentality behind My World.

[NicoRourke]

This article overlooks the most valid aspects of Chinese Democracy and mostly looks at the album from a business perspective.

This. It's not a critic of the album, merely a piece on living up to expectations.

If you manage to forget all that for a moment, it's quite a very good album - messy and overproduced, but still very good.

[wasted]

I think the reason it sounds unfinsihed is bcos every song has a different production and recorded in different studios at different times maybe. Each song has been thoroughly indulged. Even something as simple as Riad has an intro and strings. I like the density and intesity of it. It's IRS is the only song they left as the next step from UYI, everything else being developed til you get to Scraped and Sorry where the new land was found.