Why the record industry couldn't let new GN'R succeed

[classicrawker]

And the label promoted the heck out of the album until Axl refused to do his end. So this "the label didn't support or promote the album" nonsense is pure nonsense.

Labels show support with proper air play, to the point of shoving it down our throats.

So labels control how often radio stations play songs?

Here is what the label did for CD

14 million dollars

Waited 13 years for it

Before it's release took out nation wide tv commerical air time, put advertisements in newspapers and magazines.

And on a side note............the most "anticipated album of all time"...........the myspace thing got like 15 million listens............do you really think that there were people out there who would want a GnR album that didn't know CD was released???

This isn't 1975. This is the age of the internet. If Axl farts, people know about it. But you guys are implying that millions of people didn't know about CD. And still don't know to this day. See how ridiculous that sounds?

I don't get all the excuses and blame game. Just because Axl always blames everybody else for his failures doesn't mean that his fans should to.

Axl put out a great album that 3.5 million people purchased. A lot of Axl fans loved it, but the general rock audience didn't really care for it. I loved the album and couldn't care less if 18 people bought it or if it sold 34 million copies. You guys always cry that sales totals don't matter..........but then you freak out about CD not selling enough!!!

All great points and I agree with them all but in Volcano's defense record labels do exert control on radio stations to get songs played. There was a great thread where it was explained how that worked but I can't remember what it was called.

[Apollo]

Classic - I remember that thread.

But I believe that CD and Better and maybe one more song were released as singles.

I think that a lot of factors come into play.

If they released the song CD...........and it was hot and people were freaking out about it (making top 10 lists, or requests)........then the label would have pushed it more.

I think that radio stations didn't really care about the song CD.............the general population didn't really care.............Axl himself refused to promote the album..............so at that point, the radio put their efforts into OTHER albums!!!!!!!!

[DR DOOM]

Besides myself, I know/have known two other people (in REAL LIFE A.K.A. not on the internet) that likes Chinese Democracy or at least the songs from it-any others (that liked GNR in the first place) have said something along the lines of "ïts fucking shit".

I was crapping myself with joy when I got the leaks in 06 and 08 but besides those two people nobody I played them for had a good word to say about them.

They played the title track on the major rock station here (that plays a staple diet of GNR) when CD came out and asked the listeners whether they wanted them to keep playing it/ran internet polls- I never heard it again.

Edited October 4, 2013 by DR DOOM

[wasted]

I the Don Mcgee tried then there was the manager before Beta. Merck at least believed in the band at some point.

I think it was pretty hard to do what Axl wanted to do. In the end he just wanted to make a record. But to the industry or the public its like you tried to murder Slash.

I the Don Mcgee tried then there was the manager before Beta. Merck at least believed in the band at some point.

I think it was pretty hard to do what Axl wanted to do. In the end he just wanted to make a record. But to the industry or the public its like you tried to murder Slash.

The record label sunk 13-14 million into the making of ChDem so I would say they supported Axl until they finally had a enough and threatened to pull the plug. If you read the timeline and quotes of people who worked on the album in Chinese Whispers Axl would spend long stretches where he would not even show up to the studio while the $$$ clock was ticking and had hundreds of thousands of $$$ in rented gear collecting dust on the labels dime so it is rather absurd to claim everyone was conspiring to keep Axl down..............

in 2000 Axl was to go to mix. the label hired Bob Ezrin to tell him it wasnt ready. So that knocked it back and the label werent pushing for a release. They were happyvto put out Live Era. So it got to 2004 pretty quick. Thats when they issued the ultimatum to Axl. I think the way they handled Axl was poor.

On a side note 14 mil is nothing compared with the 100s of millions Guns made for the label. And the initial advance was 4 mil. The 10 mil was Jimmys idea. At that time a GNR record would sell 4 mil easily generating 50 mil for label. Not bcos its a big GNR album but bcos thats what the basic records sold. I think its more a case of people being ambitious and indulging Axl. Anything below 20 mil would seen as a failure for GNR. Axl was probably looking for the support to do that. So I dont think its as black and white as you say.

[Bobbo]

Do I think it's all Axl's fault? No.

Do I think it was mostly his own doing? Ab-so-fuckin-lutely.

[wasted]

Because its perceived Axl broke up the band, everything is his doing. Any rational person can see he never wanted that.

The fact he wanted to go to mix in 2000 and label blocked it means its not always Axls fault.

[Bobbo]

Which is why I said most, not all.

Sure maybe Axl didn't intend, in his mind, to push the other guys out. But any rational person can see firing a member without the consent of anybody else while the original partnership was still in tact, hiring a helping hand without the consent of anybody while the original partnership was still In tact, dissolving an entity under everyone's noses, creating a new entity with the same title where they'd be nothing but employees, forcing a musical direction no one else wanted to go down, and forcing a helping hand that no one else wanted to work with down their throats might be big deal breakers.

It wasn't just as simple as slash and the others quitting. Axl quit, started a new "band" in which the others found the work environment to be strangling and unbearable, and didn't join up.

[magisme]

It's kinda depressing how retarded and pointless these arguments we're having are. No matter which side you come down on, GNR is fucked.

[dalsh327]

To me the focus in the 2000s was ALL about litigation and trying to fight piracy. They only wanted winning horses and GNR as far as they were concerned should have been sent to the glue factory.

Axl running over CDs wasn't exactly someone willing to play ball with the record company. Axl talked about having grand ambitions, but I don't know if he had the actual ability to follow through, especially when they talk about all the unreleased songs and none of them have been done in concert to give the fans any impression there's more to come.

[guitarpatch]

Posted this on another forum, but here are my thoughts...

Marketing for the album on the label side was going to be doomed from whatever angle they decided to release it. Universal had stopped funding a few years beforehand, and had probably already wrote off the debt over the years. Just from a pure business side, if you already invested 5 times what you expect to get in return on even your most best case scenario, why pour more marketing $ and effort into the project? You release it with whatever minimal obligations you need to do and cut your loss.

The Best Buy deal was just a way for Universal to wipe their hands clean. Somebody must have owed someone a favor or maybe Best Buy was feeling pressure from corporate after the announcement of the AC/DC Walmart partnership. Shame on them if that's the case. Walmart has 3 times the floor space and the flexibility to build out a virtual store with the way they change their floor on a weekly basis, while Best Buy's floor space is pretty much locked in by existing vendors. Also, Walmart has over 4,000 locations in the US while Best Buy at the time had around 600. Pretty wide range of difference on the scale and reach if you're looking for similar sales results on an exclusive at that scale.

So once the Best Buy deal was secured, there was no reason what so ever for Universal to promote this record in the US. They recouped most of their losses, and it was on Best Buy to move the units that they paid for. So whatever got sold in the US, Universal wasn't going to see any $ for them. Not too surprising that they didn't want to promote it. So now you're relying on Best Buy to handle the entire marketing plan for the album. Well, Best Buy doesn't know how to market an album release to the extent and power a major label can.

On a side note, with normal releases most stores return unsold records back to the label for credit. For this release, there was no return policy. This is why you saw Best Buy moving copies for $2 a year later, which didn't help things at all from perception stand point with the public. If this album is $2, it must really suck! Another misstep in this process if you ask me.

IMO Azoff knew this. He is probably the most knowledgeable, cut throat, kinda weasly, music industry professional in the business, and if his plan as manager was to get this record released and try to coerce a reunion down the road, then this is the way to start the process. Make sure the album was considered a flop. Universal and Azoff were desperately looking for a fool to take on and pay for this project knowing that if Universal wiped their hands on a marketing level, if he could keep the band off the road, and keep Axl and Co from doing much press because he forced the decision, or that they were angry with the process, that whoever picked it up as a retailer wasn't going to have the support to make it successful.

[classicrawker]

Posted this on another forum, but here are my thoughts...

Marketing for the album on the label side was going to be doomed from whatever angle they decided to release it. Universal had stopped funding a few years beforehand, and had probably already wrote off the debt over the years. Just from a pure business side, if you already invested 5 times what you expect to get in return on even your most best case scenario, why pour more marketing $ and effort into the project? You release it with whatever minimal obligations you need to do and cut your loss.

The Best Buy deal was just a way for Universal to wipe their hands clean. Somebody must have owed someone a favor or maybe Best Buy was feeling pressure from corporate after the announcement of the AC/DC Walmart partnership. Shame on them if that's the case. Walmart has 3 times the floor space and the flexibility to build out a virtual store with the way they change their floor on a weekly basis, while Best Buy's floor space is pretty much locked in by existing vendors. Also, Walmart has over 4,000 locations in the US while Best Buy at the time had around 600. Pretty wide range of difference on the scale and reach if you're looking for similar sales results on an exclusive at that scale.

So once the Best Buy deal was secured, there was no reason what so ever for Universal to promote this record in the US. They recouped most of their losses, and it was on Best Buy to move the units that they paid for. So whatever got sold in the US, Universal wasn't going to see any $ for them. Not too surprising that they didn't want to promote it. So now you're relying on Best Buy to handle the entire marketing plan for the album. Well, Best Buy doesn't know how to market an album release to the extent and power a major label can.

On a side note, with normal releases most stores return unsold records back to the label for credit. For this release, there was no return policy. This is why you saw Best Buy moving copies for $2 a year later, which didn't help things at all from perception stand point with the public. If this album is $2, it must really suck! Another misstep in this process if you ask me.

IMO Azoff knew this. He is probably the most knowledgeable, cut throat, kinda weasly, music industry professional in the business, and if his plan as manager was to get this record released and try to coerce a reunion down the road, then this is the way to start the process. Make sure the album was considered a flop. Universal and Azoff were desperately looking for a fool to take on and pay for this project knowing that if Universal wiped their hands on a marketing level, if he could keep the band off the road, and keep Axl and Co from doing much press because he forced the decision, or that they were angry with the process, that whoever picked it up as a retailer wasn't going to have the support to make it successful.

You had me until you started blaming Azoff for Axl's inactivity and refusal to help market the album......

[dalsh327]

Posted this on another forum, but here are my thoughts...

Marketing for the album on the label side was going to be doomed from whatever angle they decided to release it. Universal had stopped funding a few years beforehand, and had probably already wrote off the debt over the years. Just from a pure business side, if you already invested 5 times what you expect to get in return on even your most best case scenario, why pour more marketing $ and effort into the project? You release it with whatever minimal obligations you need to do and cut your loss.

The Best Buy deal was just a way for Universal to wipe their hands clean. Somebody must have owed someone a favor or maybe Best Buy was feeling pressure from corporate after the announcement of the AC/DC Walmart partnership. Shame on them if that's the case. Walmart has 3 times the floor space and the flexibility to build out a virtual store with the way they change their floor on a weekly basis, while Best Buy's floor space is pretty much locked in by existing vendors. Also, Walmart has over 4,000 locations in the US while Best Buy at the time had around 600. Pretty wide range of difference on the scale and reach if you're looking for similar sales results on an exclusive at that scale.

So once the Best Buy deal was secured, there was no reason what so ever for Universal to promote this record in the US. They recouped most of their losses, and it was on Best Buy to move the units that they paid for. So whatever got sold in the US, Universal wasn't going to see any $ for them. Not too surprising that they didn't want to promote it. So now you're relying on Best Buy to handle the entire marketing plan for the album. Well, Best Buy doesn't know how to market an album release to the extent and power a major label can.

On a side note, with normal releases most stores return unsold records back to the label for credit. For this release, there was no return policy. This is why you saw Best Buy moving copies for $2 a year later, which didn't help things at all from perception stand point with the public. If this album is $2, it must really suck! Another misstep in this process if you ask me.

IMO Azoff knew this. He is probably the most knowledgeable, cut throat, kinda weasly, music industry professional in the business, and if his plan as manager was to get this record released and try to coerce a reunion down the road, then this is the way to start the process. Make sure the album was considered a flop. Universal and Azoff were desperately looking for a fool to take on and pay for this project knowing that if Universal wiped their hands on a marketing level, if he could keep the band off the road, and keep Axl and Co from doing much press because he forced the decision, or that they were angry with the process, that whoever picked it up as a retailer wasn't going to have the support to make it successful.

Azoff also has a history of giving the shirt of his back for bands he manages.

I blame the fucking Eagles.

Azoff had no ability to coerce a reunion. That's silly. Watch the Eagles documentary. All he was going to do was get Matt, Duff, Izzy, and Slash in a rehearsal room and ask if Axl wanted to check it out. Azoff asked Glenn Frey if he wanted to "check it out" and Glenn said "thanks, but no thanks, I just got married".

Is that backstabbing?

Another attempt to get Slash and Axl in the same room was when they brought Izzy in to play mediator.. All he did was hang out at the office playing solitaire and checking his mail, then when Axl was a no-show, left.

What led to the lawsuit was Irving dropping every band except the Eagles (a band Geffen had also dealt with and pissed Don Henley off twice) was Irving moving on to salvage the ticket industry, so he passed GNR off to one of his "lackeys" and Axl went "fuck you, I paid for Azoff, I want Azoff", and Front Line went "fuck you, it's in the contract, bitch", then Axl went "fuck you, I'm not paying".

He is known as the poison dwarf but he does get the job done, at least until he stopped being hands on with Front Line. He fucked up when he pissed a Springsteen fan off who happened to work for the Department of Justice and got served with some antitrust paperwork...which Axl's lawyer happened to bring up in court later on as fuel for fire.

Now he's out of the ticket biz, probably just a board member at Front Line, and running Starz channel, so he just worries about the next season of Spartacus and that show about Miami gangsters in the 50s.

He coordinated the Best Buy deal which covered bills, but it played a big part in hurting CD sales by making them exclusive. He took highest bidder in that case, but it left them with the bag at a really bad time, but they make their money in technology and appliances, music's "loss leader" stuff that they could write off.

I still think Axl has the attitude of making Universal hundreds of millions of dollars, he gets very little of that money (around 35 cents per copy of AFD & Greatest Hits sold), so if he wants to take his time and spend tens of millions of dollars on chicken coops and hundreds of engineers and Pro Tools geeks and piss money out the window by keeping multiple studios open, he should be able to do so.

For some reason he didn't want to burn bridges with Iovine so he didn't badmouth him the way 50 Cent was using Twitter to bitch about Jimmy sitting on Fitty's music,after that Fitty sent a pic of him and Jimmy together.

Jimmy's pretty much done with dealing with bands and putting new music out, and worried more about Beats By Dre, and who can blame him? Now he can just be the American Idol mentor and roll out customized headphones.

[Graeme]

Posted this on another forum, but here are my thoughts...

Marketing for the album on the label side was going to be doomed from whatever angle they decided to release it. Universal had stopped funding a few years beforehand, and had probably already wrote off the debt over the years. Just from a pure business side, if you already invested 5 times what you expect to get in return on even your most best case scenario, why pour more marketing $ and effort into the project? You release it with whatever minimal obligations you need to do and cut your loss.

The Best Buy deal was just a way for Universal to wipe their hands clean. Somebody must have owed someone a favor or maybe Best Buy was feeling pressure from corporate after the announcement of the AC/DC Walmart partnership. Shame on them if that's the case. Walmart has 3 times the floor space and the flexibility to build out a virtual store with the way they change their floor on a weekly basis, while Best Buy's floor space is pretty much locked in by existing vendors. Also, Walmart has over 4,000 locations in the US while Best Buy at the time had around 600. Pretty wide range of difference on the scale and reach if you're looking for similar sales results on an exclusive at that scale.

So once the Best Buy deal was secured, there was no reason what so ever for Universal to promote this record in the US. They recouped most of their losses, and it was on Best Buy to move the units that they paid for. So whatever got sold in the US, Universal wasn't going to see any $ for them. Not too surprising that they didn't want to promote it. So now you're relying on Best Buy to handle the entire marketing plan for the album. Well, Best Buy doesn't know how to market an album release to the extent and power a major label can.

On a side note, with normal releases most stores return unsold records back to the label for credit. For this release, there was no return policy. This is why you saw Best Buy moving copies for $2 a year later, which didn't help things at all from perception stand point with the public. If this album is $2, it must really suck! Another misstep in this process if you ask me.

IMO Azoff knew this. He is probably the most knowledgeable, cut throat, kinda weasly, music industry professional in the business, and if his plan as manager was to get this record released and try to coerce a reunion down the road, then this is the way to start the process. Make sure the album was considered a flop. Universal and Azoff were desperately looking for a fool to take on and pay for this project knowing that if Universal wiped their hands on a marketing level, if he could keep the band off the road, and keep Axl and Co from doing much press because he forced the decision, or that they were angry with the process, that whoever picked it up as a retailer wasn't going to have the support to make it successful.

All he was going to do was get Matt, Duff, Izzy, and Slash in a rehearsal room and ask if Axl wanted to check it out. Azoff asked Glenn Frey if he wanted to "check it out" and Glenn said "thanks, but no thanks, I just got married".

Is that backstabbing?

From Axl's perspective, absolutely. That shows that he took the GN'R job with the intent of reuniting the old band, that's a huge betrayal. You take on GN'R, you accept who is in the band at that time and you work to manage and promote that line-up, that should be your job and you should shut up and do it. That Azoff even considered trying to get a reunion to happen would be a dealbreaker for Axl.

[wasted]

Which is why I said most, not all.

Sure maybe Axl didn't intend, in his mind, to push the other guys out. But any rational person can see firing a member without the consent of anybody else while the original partnership was still in tact, hiring a helping hand without the consent of anybody while the original partnership was still In tact, dissolving an entity under everyone's noses, creating a new entity with the same title where they'd be nothing but employees, forcing a musical direction no one else wanted to go down, and forcing a helping hand that no one else wanted to work with down their throats might be big deal breakers.

It wasn't just as simple as slash and the others quitting. Axl quit, started a new "band" in which the others found the work environment to be strangling and unbearable, and didn't join up.

Yes, but we were talking about the Hof and how even tho they say semi nice things, we wish him the best etc. When its time to help him they do the one thing that has dogged Axl, the make him the bad guy, the sole destroyer of Guns, there was no context of other band members. I think they will regret that.

Yes he wanted control, because they were a mess. Adler and Izzy were not in great shape. Slash n duff went on to prove it was only a matter of time. Remember Niven trying to fire Axl? it was every man for himself in the end.

But now we know the business side of things just got the better of them. I do think some of what Axl did seems unnecesary but then it turned out not to be.

If you look at it from their point of view why not let Axl tour with other guys, they werent enjoying it and werent making that much from the shows after Axl blew all the cash on parties.

[Nick85]

Does anyone still have a PDF of Axl's countersuit against Azoff?

[Guest NGOG]

If Axl's GNR were a money making entity, people like Jimmy Iovine would have forgot the 'big 5'. As opposed to successfully recruiting big names that would rival the image of Slash, Axl opted for a relatively unknown crop of musicians. Additionaly, instead of releasing a digestable GNR record to begin the new era without prejudice, Axl embarked on a grand statement.

That's perhaps why Interscope have always treated New GNR with contempt.

[username]

Man, Storm was a fucking hero. I think I'll get that book.

But no. The main thing that prevented GnR from succeeding, imo, is Axl Rose.

[ThinkAboutYou]

End Of Days was promoted pretty heavily I think it was a decent size blockbuster for GNR to hitch their ride too

[Rustycage]

Blame everyone but Axl, huh? Surprising.

1: Guns N Roses had it's own style and changing that style may as well been creating a totally different band. You can't take Oreo, change the cookie into Chips Ahoy and market is as Oreo and expect everyone to treat it as such. People aren't THAT stupid.

2: Axl is a basket case to work with. Way too abrasive for a successful transformation as big as nugnr.

3: Their music is just not good enough to be marketed as GNR. It's B material and that's being generous.

[dalsh327]

There has to be a Timbaland remix of a Chinese Democracy song out there.

[classicrawker]

Which is why I said most, not all.

Sure maybe Axl didn't intend, in his mind, to push the other guys out. But any rational person can see firing a member without the consent of anybody else while the original partnership was still in tact, hiring a helping hand without the consent of anybody while the original partnership was still In tact, dissolving an entity under everyone's noses, creating a new entity with the same title where they'd be nothing but employees, forcing a musical direction no one else wanted to go down, and forcing a helping hand that no one else wanted to work with down their throats might be big deal breakers.

It wasn't just as simple as slash and the others quitting. Axl quit, started a new "band" in which the others found the work environment to be strangling and unbearable, and didn't join up.

Yes, but we were talking about the Hof and how even tho they say semi nice things, we wish him the best etc. When its time to help him they do the one thing that has dogged Axl, the make him the bad guy, the sole destroyer of Guns, there was no context of other band members. I think they will regret that.

Yes he wanted control, because they were a mess. Adler and Izzy were not in great shape. Slash n duff went on to prove it was only a matter of time. Remember Niven trying to fire Axl? it was every man for himself in the end.

But now we know the business side of things just got the better of them. I do think some of what Axl did seems unnecesary but then it turned out not to be.

If you look at it from their point of view why not let Axl tour with other guys, they werent enjoying it and werent making that much from the shows after Axl blew all the cash on parties.

Please stop with the nonsense that Axl took control because the rest of the band was a mess.....Slash and Duff were always ready to play on time, never missed a show and always turned up for rehearsals something Axl can't claim.

Axl took control because he wanted to run the show period end of story....IMHO of course.......

[Mysteron]

We've all heard the spiel about "managers trying to force GN'R to reform" over promoting the new band, particularly during the 2002-2010 era. I'd never really thought about why, but this article makes a good fist of explaining it:

http://www.classicrockmagazine.com/features/storms-last-stand/

Specifically, this bit:

There was a power shift from record companies to promoters and agents. In 2002 David Bowie announced that he was to perform his classic album Low in its entirety at London’s Royal Festival Hall. (“Hang on,” double-checked a cynical audience: “You’re definitely not going to play any of your new album? Really? And none of that Tin Machine guff? Ok then, I’m in!”) Acts with a similar pedigree who previously had thought that they had to release a new album in order to tour, embraced a new nothing-but-the-hits/your-favourite-album-in-full touring model. Promoters, fed-up of losing small fortunes on hot, hyped young acts with no audience, smelled money. The new law: any band that can reform, will.

The decline of record labels happened during the making of Chinese Democracy.

An interesting account of the making of the album could be written, reflecting the decline, and their changing attitudes towards bands.

[wasted]

Which is why I said most, not all.

Sure maybe Axl didn't intend, in his mind, to push the other guys out. But any rational person can see firing a member without the consent of anybody else while the original partnership was still in tact, hiring a helping hand without the consent of anybody while the original partnership was still In tact, dissolving an entity under everyone's noses, creating a new entity with the same title where they'd be nothing but employees, forcing a musical direction no one else wanted to go down, and forcing a helping hand that no one else wanted to work with down their throats might be big deal breakers.

It wasn't just as simple as slash and the others quitting. Axl quit, started a new "band" in which the others found the work environment to be strangling and unbearable, and didn't join up.

Yes, but we were talking about the Hof and how even tho they say semi nice things, we wish him the best etc. When its time to help him they do the one thing that has dogged Axl, the make him the bad guy, the sole destroyer of Guns, there was no context of other band members. I think they will regret that.

Yes he wanted control, because they were a mess. Adler and Izzy were not in great shape. Slash n duff went on to prove it was only a matter of time. Remember Niven trying to fire Axl? it was every man for himself in the end.

But now we know the business side of things just got the better of them. I do think some of what Axl did seems unnecesary but then it turned out not to be.

If you look at it from their point of view why not let Axl tour with other guys, they werent enjoying it and werent making that much from the shows after Axl blew all the cash on parties.

Please stop with the nonsense that Axl took control because the rest of the band was a mess.....Slash and Duff were always ready to play on time, never missed a show and always turned up for rehearsals something Axl can't claim.

Axl took control because he wanted to run the show period end of story....IMHO of course.......

seeing as Izzy quit bcos he couldnt handle touring. They had studio time why couldnt the produce anything like they did with UYI. Waiting for Axl? its more than Slash was high and couldnt be bothered to play solos for Axl.

They always a mess but when it was time straighten up and get down to business they went solo.

And who could blame them?

but they act as if they didnt cime out of pure chaos in first place and they were nuns and Axl was satan.

Cokeheads and heroins addicts shouldnt tell people not to be late.

[DieselDaisy]

Which is why I said most, not all.

Sure maybe Axl didn't intend, in his mind, to push the other guys out. But any rational person can see firing a member without the consent of anybody else while the original partnership was still in tact, hiring a helping hand without the consent of anybody while the original partnership was still In tact, dissolving an entity under everyone's noses, creating a new entity with the same title where they'd be nothing but employees, forcing a musical direction no one else wanted to go down, and forcing a helping hand that no one else wanted to work with down their throats might be big deal breakers.

It wasn't just as simple as slash and the others quitting. Axl quit, started a new "band" in which the others found the work environment to be strangling and unbearable, and didn't join up.

Yes, but we were talking about the Hof and how even tho they say semi nice things, we wish him the best etc. When its time to help him they do the one thing that has dogged Axl, the make him the bad guy, the sole destroyer of Guns, there was no context of other band members. I think they will regret that.

Yes he wanted control, because they were a mess. Adler and Izzy were not in great shape. Slash n duff went on to prove it was only a matter of time. Remember Niven trying to fire Axl? it was every man for himself in the end.

But now we know the business side of things just got the better of them. I do think some of what Axl did seems unnecesary but then it turned out not to be.

If you look at it from their point of view why not let Axl tour with other guys, they werent enjoying it and werent making that much from the shows after Axl blew all the cash on parties.

Please stop with the nonsense that Axl took control because the rest of the band was a mess.....Slash and Duff were always ready to play on time, never missed a show and always turned up for rehearsals something Axl can't claim.

Axl took control because he wanted to run the show period end of story....IMHO of course.......

seeing as Izzy quit bcos he couldnt handle touring. They had studio time why couldnt the produce anything like they did with UYI. Waiting for Axl? its more than Slash was high and couldnt be bothered to play solos for Axl.

They always a mess but when it was time straighten up and get down to business they went solo.

And who could blame them?

but they act as if they didnt cime out of pure chaos in first place and they were nuns and Axl was satan.

Cokeheads and heroins addicts shouldnt tell people not to be late.

Slash couldn't be bothered to play solos for Axl? What sort of stupidity is this. It is simply so lame to blame the drugs. And Izzy also left because he was sick of Axl's bullshit; Axl tried to get Izzy to sign bullshit contracts (to reduce his wage) and he hated the homosexual videos like Don't Cry which were all Axl's idea. Genius that Axl. Axl is also the genius who added crappy overdubs to UYI, ruining an otherwise good album. Cool Ranch dressing indeed.

[ThinkAboutYou]

Duff and Slash could always play even fucked up for them being fucked up was never a problem in regards to the music