The problem with Chinese Democracy is that I feel like I could tell Axl how to improve every song on the album

[Apollo]

I totally agree. There is quite a bit of stuff I would go in and change.

One of those changes I have in mind would be to simplifiy the arrangments by reducting the amount of layering throughout the whole album so it highlights certain parts and musical sections rather than just being very disjointed (the studio version of Catcher is a big offender of this IMO). Combine this with getting better takes of certain things and I feel like the album would be a totally different animal

I think you hit the nail on the head.

CD sounds so much different depending on what type of stereo system you are listening to it on.

Axl just spent too much time on it.

Hopefully with the next album he'll just try and produce a straight up rock and roll album. Less is More.

[magisme]

CD would have been a lot better if it had more good songs and less bad ones.

[Rovim]

CD would have been a lot better if it had more good songs and less bad ones.

A lot of good songs on there: Better, There Was A Time, Catcher, Streets Of Dreams, and more.

[wasted]

Theyre all good songs, its just the production varies. If Slash was on Street of Dreams people would love it. Same with TIL, TWAT, Catcher. Itsvjust he didnt want to do that kind of stuff anymore.

[appetite4illusions]

I'd like to hear some specific examples. For example, I know some people will say remove the choral start and end of TWAT, but I like it.

Biggest one for me is the mix on Catcher - I'll bet they probably have like 30 different mixes of these songs, but for Catcher it is basically a great song with a shitty mix.

Yeah Catcher was watered down from that classic sounding demo, but It's still a great song to me.

Too much going on, especially in the start of the song and the outro. I like Bumble's outro, but I felt they went for that whole back and forth thing that Axl and Slash did so well together, but here it was more fighting for space with the singing and the guitar.

But it's not a problem imo. If I never heard the demo, it wouldn't bother me as much.

Axl's clean vocals on I.R.S and raspy vocals on Madagascar and Streets Of Dreams come to mind too. I would put clean vocals on Maddy and SOD and raspy on I.R.S but again, not a problem.

I remember when the Rock Band tracks leaked and we got versions of the songs minus guitars, you could really hear in Catcher how some of the great piano melodies were buried underneath the wall of sound. Definitely the song that suffered the most.

There was a fan edit some years back of the album version that sounded like a stripped back Rock Band multi-track with the Brian May solo artificially inserted back into its correct place. I'd love to get my hands on that if it's still floating around...

Edited October 15, 2013 by appetite4illusions

[J Dog]

The production and mixes are kind of all over the place. Some good, some could have been better. I would have left Catcher and IRS alone.

[wasted]

There is definitely a problem with the scope of the material, as in the songs that probably sound great in a simple stripped down mode have been layered up to fit in with some of the other more complex stuff. The Blues would have been too ordinary to sit next to Shackler's and Scraped.

[Gunzen]

No offense Randy, but you could not have written that music, composed anything, you probably can't read music, or are in a band, so instead of starting a thread about a 5 year old CD ( the CD you PMED me about personally, and said was amazing and was gonna be huge) in hindsight, maybe you should just shut the fuck up, cause I doubt you could compose a peanut butter and jelly sandwhich.

Seriously, seems so easy to nitpick, when most of you guys can't do shit, and will never accomplish anything in your lives as successfully as he does. So Axl writes a solid, if not great CD, and you guys wanna pick on a track overlay like that would have changed anything? Get the fuck over yourself.

Hey Randy, why don't you start a thread about how much cooler you could make Pavoratti sing? What is the Beetoven site too busy? You gotta slum it here?

Dope.

There is definitely a problem with the scope of the material, as in the songs that probably sound great in a simple stripped down mode have been layered up to fit in with some of the other more complex stuff. The Blues would have been too ordinary to sit next to Shackler's and Scraped.

Yeah, man too bad you aren't talented or famous, or you could have saved the CD.

Just let it fucking go man, how long has it been since the CD came out?

[wasted]

Buy my book. All I need is Kenny Powers to do the audiobook and slash to play a blues solo over the sexy scenes.

I dont think what I said was criticism, its just you can see how they unified the material. Some people think its over done, I think its innovative. Its really pushing envelope to have such diverse material on one album, theres going to points where it unravels, but there arent many. CD is pretty tight. Scraped and Sorry seem from a different album though.

Edited October 15, 2013 by wasted

[HubbaBubba]

No offense Randy, but you could not have written that music, composed anything, you probably can't read music, or are in a band, so instead of starting a thread about a 5 year old CD ( the CD you PMED me about personally, and said was amazing and was gonna be huge) in hindsight, maybe you should just shut the fuck up, cause I doubt you could compose a peanut butter and jelly sandwhich.

Seriously, seems so easy to nitpick, when most of you guys can't do shit, and will never accomplish anything in your lives as successfully as he does. So Axl writes a solid, if not great CD, and you guys wanna pick on a track overlay like that would have changed anything? Get the fuck over yourself.

Hey Randy, why don't you start a thread about how much cooler you could make Pavoratti sing? What is the Beetoven site too busy? You gotta slum it here?

Dope.

There is definitely a problem with the scope of the material, as in the songs that probably sound great in a simple stripped down mode have been layered up to fit in with some of the other more complex stuff. The Blues would have been too ordinary to sit next to Shackler's and Scraped.

Yeah, man too bad you aren't talented or famous, or you could have saved the CD.

Just let it fucking go man, how long has it been since the CD came out?

If he could make Pavarotti sing at all it'd be story of the century.

The music's been released into the public domain to make money, so the public will pick over it and judge it - that' the arrangement. I don't get this idea that only artists are in a position to criticise artists. Some of the songs are very busy, and we have a reference point due to the availability of the leaks. And pasting on more licks with protools is hardly the work of a savant.

You obviously have good taste in music, because you're here. Aren't there a few things about a few songs on cd you'd change? You should chip into the discussion.

[wasted]

Are you saying I didnt invent the Pavarotti hologram tour?

[phaeryen]

Axl should have said screw the band and made an acoustic record by himself.

Holy sh*t, thanks for sharing this one.

I think it has the CD version beat. What a nice arrangement. Between the verses it could use a little breathing room from somewhere but other than that, A+.

Edited October 15, 2013 by phaeryen

[HubbaBubba]

I dont think what I said was criticism, its just you can see how they unified the material. Some people think its over done, I think its innovative. Its really pushing envelope to have such diverse material on one album, theres going to points where it unravels, but there arent many. CD is pretty tight. Scraped and Sorry seem from a different album though.

Scraped and sorry do give that vibe.

I really like the diversity thing - queen were the undisputed masters of it and axl as we know is a huge fan. Faith No More do it well too. To pull it off you've got to be really fucking talented.

I think cd is disjointed not because of the diversity, but because of the huge amount of time it was recorded over. I'm not talking about trends changing in the background either.

Remember those homework essays in school that you just couldn't face, so you'd do it over like a week, writing one paragraph at a time? Even when you re-read what you'd done so far each time you sat down to it, it would always turn out really disjointed compared to the ones you wrote in one continuous painful push. It was to do with the flow of ideas. That's kinda what I'm getting at.

[HubbaBubba]

Are you saying I didnt invent the Pavarotti hologram tour?

that's a big step up from ghetto gospel!

[wasted]

I dont think what I said was criticism, its just you can see how they unified the material. Some people think its over done, I think its innovative. Its really pushing envelope to have such diverse material on one album, theres going to points where it unravels, but there arent many. CD is pretty tight. Scraped and Sorry seem from a different album though.

Scraped and sorry do give that vibe.

I really like the diversity thing - queen were the undisputed masters of it and axl as we know is a huge fan. Faith No More do it well too. To pull it off you've got to be really fucking talented.

I think cd is disjointed not because of the diversity, but because of the huge amount of time it was recorded over. I'm not talking about trends changing in the background either.

Remember those homework essays in school that you just couldn't face, so you'd do it over like a week, writing one paragraph at a time? Even when you re-read what you'd done so far each time you sat down to it, it would always turn out really disjointed compared to the ones you wrote in one continuous painful push. It was to do with the flow of ideas. That's kinda what I'm getting at.

I think thats why CD is so good because they were forced to try to unify the sound.

I guess they used different studios. Started where AFD was made then moved to somewhere else. its like they were searching for the perfect way to say Im fucked up but fuck you. They finally did that on Scraped and Sorry. CD seems like a journey from TIL to Sorry.

Edited October 15, 2013 by wasted

[HubbaBubba]

I dont think what I said was criticism, its just you can see how they unified the material. Some people think its over done, I think its innovative. Its really pushing envelope to have such diverse material on one album, theres going to points where it unravels, but there arent many. CD is pretty tight. Scraped and Sorry seem from a different album though.

Scraped and sorry do give that vibe.

I really like the diversity thing - queen were the undisputed masters of it and axl as we know is a huge fan. Faith No More do it well too. To pull it off you've got to be really fucking talented.

I think cd is disjointed not because of the diversity, but because of the huge amount of time it was recorded over. I'm not talking about trends changing in the background either.

Remember those homework essays in school that you just couldn't face, so you'd do it over like a week, writing one paragraph at a time? Even when you re-read what you'd done so far each time you sat down to it, it would always turn out really disjointed compared to the ones you wrote in one continuous painful push. It was to do with the flow of ideas. That's kinda what I'm getting at.

I think thats why CD is so good because they were forced to try to unify the sound.

I guess they used different studios. Started where AFD was made then moved to somewhere else. its like they were searching for the perfect way to say Im fucked up but fuck you. They finally did that on Scraped and Sorry. CD seems like a journey from TIL to Sorry.

Now that's an interesting idea. It's kinda similar to the gnr chemistry thing i was trying to express in the other thread, but way, way more abstract.

Take three song ideas from three different years that seem worlds apart. None of them will budge. Now make them. Out of the fire comes something unique.

Slash will only do 5 o'clock. Izzy only Hounds. Axl only grand designs. They each budge a little and you've got magic. Nobody budges and it all falls apart. But it HAD to be that way.

[wasted]

They forced a nu metal song like Shacklers into the GNR dynamic. The gave stuff like SOD a nu metal glint, like Faith no More playing Elton John. Scraped is like Prodigy playing Out Ta Get Me. Its an oxymoron musically, its a Chinese Democracy.

[HubbaBubba]

They forced a nu metal song like Shacklers into the GNR dynamic. The gave stuff like SOD a nu metal glint, like Faith no More playing Elton John. Scraped is like Prodigy playing Out Ta Get Me. Its an oxymoron musically, its a Chinese Democracy.

I know. Too much force!

[wasted]

They forced a nu metal song like Shacklers into the GNR dynamic. The gave stuff like SOD a nu metal glint, like Faith no More playing Elton John. Scraped is like Prodigy playing Out Ta Get Me. Its an oxymoron musically, its a Chinese Democracy.

I know. Too much force!

Or is it just a nu metal super group playing Axl Rose songs?

[onetimer]

The problem seems to be Axl himself felt he could improve every song on the album and look at what we got ....

[IncitingChaos]

Axl should have said screw the band and made an acoustic record by himself.

Holy sh*t, thanks for sharing this one.

I think it has the CD version beat. What a nice arrangement. Between the verses it could use a little breathing room from somewhere but other than that, A+.

Yea, when I hear the songs in this form it reminds me how strong Axl's lyrics can be.

[GivenToFly]

I don't think the approach itself is wrong, it's just that the layers drown each other out. There's some good stuff in there that you just can't hear. When I listen to CD on headphones with silence around me it's a pretty different album. It's like you're listening to three or four albums at the same time - which one do you focus on?

No offense Randy, but you could not have written that music, composed anything, you probably can't read music, or are in a band, so instead of starting a thread about a 5 year old CD ( the CD you PMED me about personally, and said was amazing and was gonna be huge) in hindsight, maybe you should just shut the fuck up, cause I doubt you could compose a peanut butter and jelly sandwhich.

Seriously, seems so easy to nitpick, when most of you guys can't do shit, and will never accomplish anything in your lives as successfully as he does. So Axl writes a solid, if not great CD, and you guys wanna pick on a track overlay like that would have changed anything? Get the fuck over yourself.

Hey Randy, why don't you start a thread about how much cooler you could make Pavoratti sing? What is the Beetoven site too busy? You gotta slum it here?

Dope.

There is definitely a problem with the scope of the material, as in the songs that probably sound great in a simple stripped down mode have been layered up to fit in with some of the other more complex stuff. The Blues would have been too ordinary to sit next to Shackler's and Scraped.

Yeah, man too bad you aren't talented or famous, or you could have saved the CD.

Just let it fucking go man, how long has it been since the CD came out?

We're consumers criticizing a product. I don't see the problem.

[wasted]

I wasn't being critical anyway, I think it's a problem they solved for the most part. I've been trying hard not to get into trouble...

[rhiad85]

So what if Randy's opinion of the album changed - generally speaking ones opinion or perspective of something can change over time. I thought very highly of CD just prior and following the release at the time. In terms of Axl I believe he himself doesn't consider the released product as his vision for it, yet he hasn't hasn't taken any steps to correct or reinforce that - if anything, over time he seems to have disassociated himself from it, reducing the airtime it gets live and in interviews referring to it negatively. In terms of my own perspective, as I said I really felt strongly about the album before, musically and for what it represents, but ultimately it doesn't feel relevant for me anymore due to the above reasons which has affected my connection to it.

[wasted]

Most artists reinvent themselves everyday.