Do you download music illegally?

[Redhead74]

^^^ I agree Len, art is one of those things that people feel compelled to do whether they're making money or not. A painter is in a much worse situation. Most of the ones who contributed in a meaningful way to the world of visual art have rarely made a cent from their life's work. There are a few celebrity artists these days making millions but they are few and far between when you look at the overall scheme of things.

The unfortunate reality is that today we live in a world where everyone wants to be compensated for their efforts. But it's just tough luck when that no longer becomes possible. The only reason authors and musicians had such a good run for a long time was because their work was able to be reproduced in hundreds of thousands or millions of units and people would pay for it. Their gain came to existence in the first place due to the evolution of printing and manufacturing and now the evolution of technology has changed that again to their detriment. They can kick and scream all they like but it is what it is. They should accept they had a good run while it lasted. It's time for them to evolve to the same degree that technology did. That's just life.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

Oi! Why am I the ne'er do well thieving bastard here?

Be proud of the well earned and highly esteemed reputation you've made for yourself here, Christopher.

would you be O.K. if people stole your fashion designs and did not pay you for them? music is a musicians product and they deserved to be compensated for it the same as anyone else who produces a unique product..........if they chose to give it away for free that is their choice but unless they do no one has the right to steal their music without compensating them for if..............

It happens all the time in fashion and I personally don't have a problem with it. It's clothing I make, I'm not inventing a new type of vacuum cleaner or communication device. In fact, it happens every season that multiple designers come up with similar styles without ever seeing the other's work.

In my opinion, true creativity knows no bounds. I don't have to protect what I produce because my brain has the capacity to create more and the nature of fashion says that demand is always regenerating itself.

[classicrawker]

Right but i wasn't applying the 'industry is corrupt' principle here, i was just saying someone that quits his job to rely on the sales of a book that may or may not sell, as per Groghans hypothesis, he'd be fuckin' stupid. I have respect for the publishing industry and for authors, a lot more than the pop music industry anyway, i'd happily go out and pay for a book and do so when i got one i wanna read, i don't think i've ever downloaded a book. Actually, i tell a lie, i downloaded my first book a few days ago when Moz released his autobiography but i'm going out and buying that cuz i got respect for what it took to write that, i believe it has a right above and beyond pop music to be called art. Pop music has about as much to do with art as prostitution does. Not that art is the only enterprise that deserves financial recompense it's just prior to now, by classicrawker in particular, a lot was made of 'respect for the artist' when i have long since lost respect for the creators of pop music as artists, authors on the other hand I give that respect to.

Also, Groghans hypothesis was based on 'if it was you' and if it was me then what i outlined above would be the way i looked at it. Nobody on earth with an ounce of sense in their head ever quit their job cuz they got a book published, you wait til the moneys comin' in, don'tcha?

Pop music ain't art, pop music is a racket.

Len, my friend!!!! You are focusing on the wrong part.

The point wasn't him quitting his job to be an author.

So exclude that part.

Let's say YOU are working on your fifth novel.

You are making $40-50,000 a year as a full time author.

You release your sixth book.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

You go to the website and see that your book has been downloaded (for free) 30,000 times.

When you go back to your publisher to negotiate your next book deal and they say "Len, your past five novels have all sold about 30,000 copies. So we'll give you a two-book deal for $60,000. And here is your 2012 royalty check for $5,000."

You are going to be cool with the fact that the people stealing your book are literally costing you (and your family) thousands of dollars?

Instead of getting a new book deal for $60-75,000 and a yearly royalty check for $10,000.........the illegal downloads are making it so you only get HALF the money you should have earned.

I just don't get why people think it's OK to steal money from somebody - just because it is music or a book or a movie.

The guy who owns the local grocery store in my town is a millionaire and I think he charges too much for avocados, does that mean I'm allowed to shoplift all the food I want from his store?

If a book publisher was also in the software business, and they decided to make free software as part of their ereader, but it also allowed you to share and download unlimited books and magazines, how is it the end user's fault? This is essentially what Sony did with selling CD burners, blank discs, and ripping software.

They didn't shoot themselves in the foot with their own technology?

So because the technology is available to steal music that makes it acceptable for someone to do it? Sorry but I am not following your logic here.................

Acceptable? No, but the company who makes it available has an obligation to let people know the potential penalties once they agree to download the software.

I think everything is going in a streaming/subscription direction anyway, so there would be no need to have a copy if you can access it at any time.

Come on mate ignorance of the law is no excuse to break it..........do you really believe people who illegally copy music don't know it is illegal or wrong?................

^^^ I agree Len, art is one of those things that people feel compelled to do whether they're making money or not. A painter is in a much worse situation. Most of the ones who contributed in a meaningful way to the world of visual art have rarely made a cent from their life's work. There are a few celebrity artists these days making millions but they are few and far between when you look at the overall scheme of things.

The unfortunate reality is that today we live in a world where everyone wants to be compensated for their efforts. But it's just tough luck when that no longer becomes possible. The only reason authors and musicians had such a good run for a long time was because their work was able to be reproduced in hundreds of thousands or millions of units and people would pay for it. Their gain came to existence in the first place due to the evolution of printing and manufacturing and now the evolution of technology has changed that again to their detriment. They can kick and scream all they like but it is what it is. They should accept they had a good run while it lasted. It's time for them to evolve to the same degree that technology did. That's just life.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

Oi! Why am I the ne'er do well thieving bastard here?

Be proud of the well earned and highly esteemed reputation you've made for yourself here, Christopher.

would you be O.K. if people stole your fashion designs and did not pay you for them? music is a musicians product and they deserved to be compensated for it the same as anyone else who produces a unique product..........if they chose to give it away for free that is their choice but unless they do no one has the right to steal their music without compensating them for if..............

It happens all the time in fashion and I personally don't have a problem with it. It's clothing I make, I'm not inventing a new type of vacuum cleaner or communication device. In fact, it happens every season that multiple designers come up with similar styles without ever seeing the other's work.

In my opinion, true creativity knows no bounds. I don't have to protect what I produce because my brain has the capacity to create more and the nature of fashion says that demand is always regenerating itself.

So you would be O.K. with not getting paid to do your work to the point where you were not making enough to support yourself? really?

[Nosaj Thing]

Yes, but if I really like some independent musician's work that I'm not able to find for free, I'd end up buying it.

[Redhead74]

^^^ I agree Len, art is one of those things that people feel compelled to do whether they're making money or not. A painter is in a much worse situation. Most of the ones who contributed in a meaningful way to the world of visual art have rarely made a cent from their life's work. There are a few celebrity artists these days making millions but they are few and far between when you look at the overall scheme of things.

The unfortunate reality is that today we live in a world where everyone wants to be compensated for their efforts. But it's just tough luck when that no longer becomes possible. The only reason authors and musicians had such a good run for a long time was because their work was able to be reproduced in hundreds of thousands or millions of units and people would pay for it. Their gain came to existence in the first place due to the evolution of printing and manufacturing and now the evolution of technology has changed that again to their detriment. They can kick and scream all they like but it is what it is. They should accept they had a good run while it lasted. It's time for them to evolve to the same degree that technology did. That's just life.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

Oi! Why am I the ne'er do well thieving bastard here?

Be proud of the well earned and highly esteemed reputation you've made for yourself here, Christopher.

would you be O.K. if people stole your fashion designs and did not pay you for them? music is a musicians product and they deserved to be compensated for it the same as anyone else who produces a unique product..........if they chose to give it away for free that is their choice but unless they do no one has the right to steal their music without compensating them for if..............

It happens all the time in fashion and I personally don't have a problem with it. It's clothing I make, I'm not inventing a new type of vacuum cleaner or communication device. In fact, it happens every season that multiple designers come up with similar styles without ever seeing the other's work.

In my opinion, true creativity knows no bounds. I don't have to protect what I produce because my brain has the capacity to create more and the nature of fashion says that demand is always regenerating itself.

So you would be O.K. with not getting paid to do your work to the point where you were not making enough to support yourself? really?

Ironically enough, I'm already in a low income bracket, yet I still do what I do because I love it (and because my partner enables me to do it without worrying about the financial strain). The work I do is highly skilled and extremely underpaid for the experience required to be competent. On top of that a lot of the companies have sent those jobs off shore to China, Vietnam India and Bangladesh, so naturally scope for improvement in pay is almost non existent and a lot of young people wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole for these reasons. I work in one of the last remaining houses that produce high quality garments and they're dedicated to keeping the production in Australia. I'm one of the lucky ones.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Redhead74

[magisme]

I could always not download the albums illegally and definitely not buy the albums I might have bought if I had downloaded illegally and enjoyed the music. Plus I'd save myself the hundreds upon hundreds of dollars I spend going to see shows of bands I discovered by downloading illegally. I should get on that and save myself some cash.

[ITG]

stop all the downloadin

[magisme]

stop all the downloadin

Here's the thing: No. Now what?

You see, this campaign against downloading is like the bizarre, full retard cousin of the war on drugs. People are not going to stop downloading. Fact. Regardless of the "morality." So what now? Well, you could waste your time calling downloaders thieves and whatnot - and go right ahead if that floats your boat, doesn't bother me none. Or you can accept that you live in a dynamic world and that present realities make some past principles entirely obsolete. Your choice.

[Guest Len B'stard]

^^^ I agree Len, art is one of those things that people feel compelled to do whether they're making money or not. A painter is in a much worse situation. Most of the ones who contributed in a meaningful way to the world of visual art have rarely made a cent from their life's work. There are a few celebrity artists these days making millions but they are few and far between when you look at the overall scheme of things.

The unfortunate reality is that today we live in a world where everyone wants to be compensated for their efforts. But it's just tough luck when that no longer becomes possible. The only reason authors and musicians had such a good run for a long time was because their work was able to be reproduced in hundreds of thousands or millions of units and people would pay for it. Their gain came to existence in the first place due to the evolution of printing and manufacturing and now the evolution of technology has changed that again to their detriment. They can kick and scream all they like but it is what it is. They should accept they had a good run while it lasted. It's time for them to evolve to the same degree that technology did. That's just life.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

Oi! Why am I the ne'er do well thieving bastard here?

Be proud of the well earned and highly esteemed reputation you've made for yourself here, Christopher.

would you be O.K. if people stole your fashion designs and did not pay you for them? music is a musicians product and they deserved to be compensated for it the same as anyone else who produces a unique product..........if they chose to give it away for free that is their choice but unless they do no one has the right to steal their music without compensating them for if..............

It happens all the time in fashion and I personally don't have a problem with it. It's clothing I make, I'm not inventing a new type of vacuum cleaner or communication device. In fact, it happens every season that multiple designers come up with similar styles without ever seeing the other's work.

In my opinion, true creativity knows no bounds. I don't have to protect what I produce because my brain has the capacity to create more and the nature of fashion says that demand is always regenerating itself.

So you would be O.K. with not getting paid to do your work to the point where you were not making enough to support yourself? really?

Ironically enough, I'm already in a low income bracket, yet I still do what I do because I love it (and because my partner enables me to do it without worrying about the financial strain). The work I do is highly skilled and extremely underpaid for the experience required to be competent. On top of that a lot of the companies have sent those jobs off shore to China, Vietnam India and Bangladesh, so naturally scope for improvement in pay is almost non existent and a lot of young people wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole for these reasons. I work in one of the last remaining houses that produce high quality garments and they're dedicated to keeping the production in Australia. I'm one of the lucky ones.

And correct me if im wrong but you're fully qualified to work in another field which, had you stuck to, you'd be in a higher earning bracket and raking it in but you chose not to due to a love for the craft in which you are involved because, if you'll permit me to speak on your behalf, the craft matters more to than the money, there is a hunger in you that pounds and pence alone simply cannot satiate? (get your mind out of the sewer )

Thank you, a living breathing embodiment of my point, im all mouth as far as high minded ideals are concerned but i give you Red, lest you doubt that there are people that reach for something other than money in this world, thank you Red, thank you for being born, its people like you that restore my faith in humanity, you are my living breathing riposte to the incredulousness with which Groghan exclaimed of receiving half measures of ones potential earnings. This isn't an attack on you by the way Groghan, just me illustrating a counter-point to the point you raised to explain how my position differs from yours, not attacking it's validity as moral issues are often predicated on personal interpretation. You're a man with a wife and (two i believe?) beautiful kids, your position and feelings on this stuff are always gonna differ from a 30 year old with no overheads or responsibilities.

Edited November 16, 2013 by sugaraylen

[classicrawker]

stop all the downloadin

Here's the thing: No. Now what?

You see, this campaign against downloading is like the bizarre, full retard cousin of the war on drugs. People are not going to stop downloading. Fact. Regardless of the "morality." So what now? Well, you could waste your time calling downloaders thieves and whatnot - and go right ahead if that floats your boat, doesn't bother me none. Or you can accept that you live in a dynamic world and that present realities make some past principles entirely obsolete. Your choice.

So having morals against stealing is an obsolete past principal?...............that is the best twist I have yet heard to justify stealing musicians work........nice try but no..............

[Guest Len B'stard]

stop all the downloadin

Here's the thing: No. Now what?

You see, this campaign against downloading is like the bizarre, full retard cousin of the war on drugs. People are not going to stop downloading. Fact. Regardless of the "morality." So what now? Well, you could waste your time calling downloaders thieves and whatnot - and go right ahead if that floats your boat, doesn't bother me none. Or you can accept that you live in a dynamic world and that present realities make some past principles entirely obsolete. Your choice.

So having morals against stealing is an obsolete past principal?...............that is the best twist I have yet heard to justify stealing musicians work........nice try but no..............

Thats not actually what he's saying, he's talking about dealing with the reality of the way the world will go and dealing with it as such instead of arguing principles pointlessly, much like the war on drugs analogy, you can (and people have) argue the rights and wrongs of it but people are still gonna do it...so why not deal with adjusting oneself in an appropriate manner to the reality, whatever that may be, instead of arguing moral points and just being at loggerheads like me and you are doing....and to be fair he's got a point.

Edited November 16, 2013 by sugaraylen

[magisme]

Like I said before, I have no interest in justifying it. Not an interesting conversation to me. I'm just gonna keep on doing it. And so will millions of others. No half-baked morality that doesn't address current realities is gonna change that.

[Powerage5]

I do. But only stuff that either isn't available as an import, or is out of print.

[Guest NGOG]

When they could actually sell CDs, prices were nothing short of extortionate. This window of free downloading is merely a quasi-compensation.

Fuck the industry. Artists that are driven by capital have no integrity to begin with. If you're really being financially pressured as a result of diminishing music sales, get a job.

[Guest Len B'stard]

God i love the paddys, well said sir!

[ITG]

You guys can rationalize your social mores you've come to accept. Whether music is price fixed, price gouged, doesn't have a bearing on whether taking property you didn't create, from others that created it, simply because you can for free, isn't stealing. Two wrongs don't make a right. I'm off to buy some music online or as it can be better explained, subsidizing others ability to download music for free.

[magisme]

So this argument can still be boiled down to "it's wrong" vs. "no it's not," with neither side saying anything g that sways the other.

[Guest NGOG]

There are enough exploitive commodities in life without having to pay for something that should be enjoyed leisurely.

If your music is good I'll pay to see you perform it live. But I'm not paying for your poxy CD.

[Randy Lahey]

Most artists aren't putting out music that is worth paying for.

Edited November 16, 2013 by Randy Lahey

[Redhead74]

Ironically enough, I'm already in a low income bracket, yet I still do what I do because I love it (and because my partner enables me to do it without worrying about the financial strain). The work I do is highly skilled and extremely underpaid for the experience required to be competent. On top of that a lot of the companies have sent those jobs off shore to China, Vietnam India and Bangladesh, so naturally scope for improvement in pay is almost non existent and a lot of young people wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole for these reasons. I work in one of the last remaining houses that produce high quality garments and they're dedicated to keeping the production in Australia. I'm one of the lucky ones.

And correct me if im wrong but you're fully qualified to work in another field which, had you stuck to, you'd be in a higher earning bracket and raking it in but you chose not to due to a love for the craft in which you are involved because, if you'll permit me to speak on your behalf, the craft matters more to than the money, there is a hunger in you that pounds and pence alone simply cannot satiate? (get your mind out of the sewer )

Thank you, a living breathing embodiment of my point, im all mouth as far as high minded ideals are concerned but i give you Red, lest you doubt that there are people that reach for something other than money in this world, thank you Red, thank you for being born, its people like you that restore my faith in humanity, you are my living breathing riposte to the incredulousness with which Groghan exclaimed of receiving half measures of ones potential earnings. This isn't an attack on you by the way Groghan, just me illustrating a counter-point to the point you raised to explain how my position differs from yours, not attacking it's validity as moral issues are often predicated on personal interpretation. You're a man with a wife and (two i believe?) beautiful kids, your position and feelings on this stuff are always gonna differ from a 30 year old with no overheads or responsibilities.

Thanks Len, I appreciate that. And you're right, I hadn't even mentioned that I did work previously in a well paid industry, where if I had continued I would be sitting pretty right now, but also would be the living embodiment of a soulless shell of a person. I'm not into selling my soul for the sake of cash, I like to get up in the morning and feel excited by what I'm doing and go to bed at night proud of what I did that day. And I do. It just means I have less money in the process. If I had kids I'd be struggling to keep my head above water, but I don't. I guess it's lucky for me I don't have a strong urge to be a mother otherwise I'd have a serious choice to make in my life.

[Redhead74]

stop all the downloadin

Here's the thing: No. Now what?

You see, this campaign against downloading is like the bizarre, full retard cousin of the war on drugs. People are not going to stop downloading. Fact. Regardless of the "morality." So what now? Well, you could waste your time calling downloaders thieves and whatnot - and go right ahead if that floats your boat, doesn't bother me none. Or you can accept that you live in a dynamic world and that present realities make some past principles entirely obsolete. Your choice.

I agree. The way I see it is these musicians and authors are just the current victim of evolution and development but because they have a platform (ie, the media) with which to complain their case, they have turned this into a 'big problem'. To me it's no different than when the automobile was invented and went into large scale production. What do you think happened to all the businesses that made their living building carriages and all the saddle makers, etc? They evolved or went out of business. One of the the most prestigious, in fact I would say THE most prestigious, fashion house, Hermes, started off as saddle and harness makers in 1837. They now make leather handbags, shoes, leather clothing and then went into textile printing. They evolved. They could have whinged and whined about cars destroying their means of making a living but they recognised the inevitability of progress. And instead of sinking they chose to swim.

The development of printing made many authors very rich. The development of sound recording made many musicians very rich. Times have changed. Big deal, suck it up you whiney cunts.

[Johnny Drama]

Well the question is how do musicians make a shit tonne of cash then if we don't buy their shit? Don't know about you lot but I like the idea of my favourite musos being a bunch of rich motherfucking gregarious cunts.

[izzygirl]

Well the question is how do musicians make a shit tonne of cash then if we don't buy their shit? Don't know about you lot but I like the idea of my favourite musos being a bunch of rich motherfucking gregarious cunts.

Concerts? My favourite working class hero has made a few million dollars last year and 92% of his income came from concerts.

------------

I download as if there was no tomorrow and I have no regrets. Not in the slightest.

The old record companies oligarchy is the most concerned and outraged for this and they have been the first ones "robbing" the artists, giving them a ridiculous percentage of the sales. And now they don't know how to adapt their business to the current times. And am I supposed to lose my sleep over it? Maybe, but it's not happening.

Does youtube charge us for their content? No. Do they make money? A ton. Same with movies. I watch my movies from a place that gets a lot of money but I download them for free. Producers or film distributors could make a fancy web where you would watch their films and with a couple of ads... there you have, money.

Edited November 17, 2013 by izzygirl

[bran]

Well the question is how do musicians make a shit tonne of cash then if we don't buy their shit? Don't know about you lot but I like the idea of my favourite musos being a bunch of rich motherfucking gregarious cunts.

Concerts? My favourite working class hero has made a few million dollars last year and 92% of his income came from concerts.

------------

I download as if there was no tomorrow and I have no regrets. Not in the slightest.

The old record companies oligarchy is the most concerned and outraged for this and they have been the first ones "robbing" the artists, giving them a ridiculous percentage of the sales. And now they don't know how to adapt their business to the current times. And am I supposed to lose my sleep over it? Maybe, but it's not happening.

Does youtube charge us for their content? No. Do they make money? A ton. Same with movies. I watch my movies from a place that gets a lot of money but I download them for free. Producers or film distributors could make a fancy web where you would watch their films and with a couple of ads... there you have, money.

yup, exactly. i remember hearing brad delp give an interview years ago. they asked how much they made from boston's debut album that sold 17 million albums in the US alone. an album that was recorded in the guitarists own basement, the album sold for a little over 5 dollars in 1976. brad delp said the band made 7 cents on the dollar per album sold.

the record industry is pissed because someone is fucking them now instead of them fucking everyone else.

[RussTCB]

I do. But only stuff that either isn't available as an import, or is out of print.

Same here. I also don't buy anything that's not available on my preferred format: vinyl. I've had Lorde's Pure Heroine for months but never purchased it until I found it 2 days ago on vinyl. Same thing with MMLP2, if/when they get around to releasing it on the format I prefer, I'll pay for it.

[John Bonham]

MP3s sound like shit.