Do you download music illegally?

[Guest Len B'stard]

Listen if you want to download official release music without paying the artist that is really up to you but at least be honest and admit you do it because your too fucking cheap to pay for it instead of justifying it that it is o.k. because the music industry owes you something for all the music you bought in the past and that they were ripping you off so now you are getting them back as this is bullshit...........nobody was ripping you off and that is the bottom line..............

See, this is where it gets interesting, now you're telling me about the nature of my financial in's and out's, apparently you know, with no prior knowledge of my earnings or financial standing that I'm too cheap to buy albums, so you're presuming firstly that I have the money to purchase the albums that i download and the second (and most insulting) presumption, that I'm not stealing because i have issues with the industry, so basically you're telling me what i think as well as the state of my finances?

My actions are my actions right? When you want to know why someone does something, or says something, or feels something, you ask them, you don't tell them. Is this now a functional aspect of human communication, telling people what they are thinking and what the motives behind their behaviour are? Am i allowed to do the same with you?

And once again we are back to your misunderstanding of the English language and the nature of what constitutes a rip off, as per your previous assertion if a person is aware of a rip off then it ceases to be a rip off, i.e. when you purchase something you are accepting the price and based on that you have wilfully entered into an agreement regarding the price, as evidenced by your willingness to fork out the money.

rip-off

noun

informal

1. 1.

   a fraud or swindle, especially something that is grossly overpriced.

Now…do you see any mention of the recipients awareness there? You don't, do you? And do you know why you don't? Becaaaaaaaause that is not what it meeeeeeans.

Now if you want to offer up a creative re-imagining of the meaning of the words of the English language you are welcome to do so but please make this clear at the beginning of any discussion you enter into with me because, and you can call me staid or boring or a rugged traditionalist if you like but i'm rather committed to the dictionary and the meanings it has assigned to the words of this colourful language of ours, it's sort of key to my ability to engage in day to day communications.

In conclusion, you call my position bullshit because you refuse to believe it, that is your privilege, your position however is bullshit because it does not bear scrutiny and is plain false, whether that be on the basis of your inability to understand the meaning of the phrases of the English language, or your moral inconsistency regarding the theft of intellectual property or the clairvoyant abilities you employ to read my mind and intentions despite having been provided with clear reasoning. Not to mention my bank balance.

Edited November 13, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Gordon Comstock]

Listen if you want to download official release music without paying the artist that is really up to you but at least be honest and admit you do it because your too fucking cheap to pay for it instead of justifying it that it is o.k. because the music industry owes you something for all the music you bought in the past and that they were ripping you off so now you are getting them back as this is bullshit...........nobody was ripping you off and that is the bottom line..............

What if that's not the case though? What if I actually believe 2 good songs and 12 bad ones are not worth $15-20?

I buy a lot of music, being "cheap" has nothing to do with it. The quality of the music is the deciding factor in whether or not I pay for an album.

edit: as an example, I downloaded the new Eminem album when it leaked. It took a few listens to grow on me but I liked it, so I bought it last weekend. I also downloaded the new Arctic Monkeys album, because I saw it while I was at the record store and remembered I was gonna check it out. I'm really glad I didn't waste my money on it.

Edited November 13, 2013 by RickRoses

[Apollo]

If one of you guys quit your job and wrote a book.

Being an author was now your source of income and career.

You complete and publish your first book.

You discover that I've got a website, with tens of thousands of visitors a month. On this site, I've scanned in your entire book and am giving it away for free to anybody who wants it.

So people can go to the book store or Amazon and purchase it - which pays YOU money for it, which allows you to pay for your house, food, clothes for your kids, etc.

OR, people can just come to my website and download your book for free. You get nothing.

Would you be mad about that........or would you think it was OK? Because the guy working at Taco Bell for $8 an hour thinks that you are already wealthy enough, and he doesn't want to spend money on the book in case it sucks - so he feels justified in picking your book up for free. Cool with you?

[Crash Diet]

Who don't, lol?

nowadays i just use youtube or grooveshark or whatev streaming site for music, i actually donwload only some rare bootlegs which are hard to find. That's all

On very few cases i still buy my fav artist new releases from time to time. Occasionaly i buy some "underground" or "indie" music from new bands just for 5-8 dollars

[Bono]

the musicians and the record companies steal from the consumer when they charge 15 dollars for a garbage cd that you cannot bring back as well.

it goes both ways, a lot of the downloading is due to the musicians and the record companies own doing.

$15 for something that can last you forever is hardly stealing. If you don't like it then so be it but how in the fuck are people actually of the belief that buying cd for $15-$30 is a rip off? Give me a break. The amount of shit people spend their money on and people are actually bitching about $15 for a cd? Please.

Also how many of you have ever tried to take a cd back? I used to do it all the time. If I didn't like it I took it back to HMV or A&B Sound or wherever. Told them why and full refund. EVERY TIME. Also if you buy from a store that you can walk into you have always had the option of listening to the cd before you purchase it. Also in this day and age anyone who blindly buys a cd then bitches about being ripped off is a fool because we have the technology at out finger tips to sample just about everything before you pay for it.

[ITG]

downloading is green. saves fossil fuels and is good for the environment. don't forget to reupload and copy.

[Gordon Comstock]

If one of you guys quit your job and wrote a book.

Being an author was now your source of income and career.

You complete and publish your first book.

You discover that I've got a website, with tens of thousands of visitors a month. On this site, I've scanned in your entire book and am giving it away for free to anybody who wants it.

So people can go to the book store or Amazon and purchase it - which pays YOU money for it, which allows you to pay for your house, food, clothes for your kids, etc.

OR, people can just come to my website and download your book for free. You get nothing.

Would you be mad about that........or would you think it was OK? Because the guy working at Taco Bell for $8 an hour thinks that you are already wealthy enough, and he doesn't want to spend money on the book in case it sucks - so he feels justified in picking your book up for free. Cool with you?

That's not really comparable since most artists make their money touring but for the sake of the argument, let's look at it this way: people re-read their favorite books just the same as I replay my favorite albums. I enjoy the albums I replay so I bought the physical copies. It would work the same way with books, no? If you enjoyed reading it once, hopefully you enjoyed it enough to buy the physical copy. If that guy who downloads it thinks it sucks then whatever, but if he thinks it's the greatest thing ever written and still won't pay for it, then I'd have a bit of a problem with it.

The fact is, is you're selling something like an album, a book, a movie, whatever it is, if it can be uploaded, it will be uploaded. If an artist wants me to buy their album, make a good fucking album. Don't write 3-4 singles and sprinkle 10 filler tracks around them just to have a product to sell, have a product that means something.

[Sheri_Rose]

NO.

[ITG]

Would you consider someone walking into a store and stealing CDs a thief?

[bran]

If one of you guys quit your job and wrote a book.

Being an author was now your source of income and career.

You complete and publish your first book.

You discover that I've got a website, with tens of thousands of visitors a month. On this site, I've scanned in your entire book and am giving it away for free to anybody who wants it.

So people can go to the book store or Amazon and purchase it - which pays YOU money for it, which allows you to pay for your house, food, clothes for your kids, etc.

OR, people can just come to my website and download your book for free. You get nothing.

Would you be mad about that........or would you think it was OK? Because the guy working at Taco Bell for $8 an hour thinks that you are already wealthy enough, and he doesn't want to spend money on the book in case it sucks - so he feels justified in picking your book up for free. Cool with you?

That's not really comparable since most artists make their money touring but for the sake of the argument, let's look at it this way: people re-read their favorite books just the same as I replay my favorite albums. I enjoy the albums I replay so I bought the physical copies. It would work the same way with books, no? If you enjoyed reading it once, hopefully you enjoyed it enough to buy the physical copy. If that guy who downloads it thinks it sucks then whatever, but if he thinks it's the greatest thing ever written and still won't pay for it, then I'd have a bit of a problem with it.

The fact is, is you're selling something like an album, a book, a movie, whatever it is, if it can be uploaded, it will be uploaded. If an artist wants me to buy their album, make a good fucking album. Don't write 3-4 singles and sprinkle 10 filler tracks around them just to have a product to sell, have a product that means something.

i agree

the thing people are missing is the fact that people who download music buy music at a far larger rate than those who dont.

i buy music because i love the physical copy, and collecting albums has been my hobby for a very long time.

Edited November 14, 2013 by bran

[wasted]

Its debatable whether they lose money bcos of downloads bcos its possible people just wouldnt buy it anyway. CDs arent a new experience. So only real fans are going to buy the album. I guess it defeats the marketing campaign. Really tho you can save yourself a kot of hassle listening to sone songs on youtube or soundcloud and decide if u really like this stuff.

[dalsh327]

Would you consider someone walking into a store and stealing CDs a thief?

The CD was already bought in order for it to be uploaded.

[Guest Len B'stard]

If one of you guys quit your job and wrote a book.

Being an author was now your source of income and career.

You complete and publish your first book.

You discover that I've got a website, with tens of thousands of visitors a month. On this site, I've scanned in your entire book and am giving it away for free to anybody who wants it.

So people can go to the book store or Amazon and purchase it - which pays YOU money for it, which allows you to pay for your house, food, clothes for your kids, etc.

OR, people can just come to my website and download your book for free. You get nothing.

Would you be mad about that........or would you think it was OK? Because the guy working at Taco Bell for $8 an hour thinks that you are already wealthy enough, and he doesn't want to spend money on the book in case it sucks - so he feels justified in picking your book up for free. Cool with you?

If i was in a headspace whereby id quit a stable job to rely on the sales of a book to feed and clothe and put a roof over my head then i would be silly because i would starve...unless id written an absolute world changing masterpiece, in which case i'd more more reliant on the money i get for public appearances. Honestly, if the craft was more important to me than a steady wage and income to the point where i'd quit my job i dont think id be the sort of human being that cared about the download of my book, most authors are happy they get read at all.

[Dazey]

If one of you guys quit your job and wrote a book.

Being an author was now your source of income and career.

You complete and publish your first book.

You discover that I've got a website, with tens of thousands of visitors a month. On this site, I've scanned in your entire book and am giving it away for free to anybody who wants it.

So people can go to the book store or Amazon and purchase it - which pays YOU money for it, which allows you to pay for your house, food, clothes for your kids, etc.

OR, people can just come to my website and download your book for free. You get nothing.

Would you be mad about that........or would you think it was OK? Because the guy working at Taco Bell for $8 an hour thinks that you are already wealthy enough, and he doesn't want to spend money on the book in case it sucks - so he feels justified in picking your book up for free. Cool with you?

If i was in a headspace whereby id quit a stable job to rely on the sales of a book to feed and clothe and put a roof over my head then i would be silly because i would starve...unless id written an absolute world changing masterpiece, in which case i'd more more reliant on the money i get for public appearances. Honestly, if the craft was more important to me than a steady wage and income to the point where i'd quit my job i dont think id be the sort of human being that cared about the download of my book, most authors are happy they get read at all.

I think your pulling his proverbial plonker there dear boy! I'm with you in that record companies have taken the piss for years and that they're probably getting what's been coming to 'em now but there are a lot of artists out there who aren't rich and do lose money due to piracy. Thing with record companies, book publishers, film studios etc is that they're not out to do the best they can for their clients, they're there to make money. If a somebody releases their first novel and it doesn't sell then they lose their publishing deal and the company moves onto the next thing. Basically you're not gonna hurt the publisher or the established artists cuz they're already minted but the little guy is going to be the one left grabbing his ankles at the end of the day.

Oh and I say this as a dirty, filthy, rotton pirate myself by the way.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Right but i wasn't applying the 'industry is corrupt' principle here, i was just saying someone that quits his job to rely on the sales of a book that may or may not sell, as per Groghans hypothesis, he'd be fuckin' stupid. I have respect for the publishing industry and for authors, a lot more than the pop music industry anyway, i'd happily go out and pay for a book and do so when i got one i wanna read, i don't think i've ever downloaded a book. Actually, i tell a lie, i downloaded my first book a few days ago when Moz released his autobiography but i'm going out and buying that cuz i got respect for what it took to write that, i believe it has a right above and beyond pop music to be called art. Pop music has about as much to do with art as prostitution does. Not that art is the only enterprise that deserves financial recompense it's just prior to now, by classicrawker in particular, a lot was made of 'respect for the artist' when i have long since lost respect for the creators of pop music as artists, authors on the other hand I give that respect to.

Also, Groghans hypothesis was based on 'if it was you' and if it was me then what i outlined above would be the way i looked at it. Nobody on earth with an ounce of sense in their head ever quit their job cuz they got a book published, you wait til the moneys comin' in, don'tcha?

Pop music ain't art, pop music is a racket.

Edited November 14, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Dazey]

Right but i wasn't applying the 'industry is corrupt' principle here, i was just saying someone that quits his job to rely on the sales of a book that may or may not sell, as per Groghans hypothesis, he'd be fuckin' stupid. I have respect for the publishing industry and for authors, a lot more than the pop music industry anyway, i'd happily go out and pay for a book and do so when i got one i wanna read, i don't think i've ever downloaded a book. Actually, i tell a lie, i downloaded my first book a few days ago when Moz released his autobiography but i'm going out and buying that cuz i got respect for what it took to write that, i believe it has a right above and beyond pop music to be called art. Pop music has about as much to do with art as prostitution does. Not that art is the only enterprise that deserves financial recompense it's just prior to now, by classicrawker in particular, a lot was made of 'respect for the artist' when i have long since lost respect for the creators of pop music as artists, authors on the other hand I give that respect to.

Also, Groghans hypothesis was based on 'if it was you' and if it was me then what i outlined above would be the way i looked at it. Nobody on earth with an ounce of sense in their head ever quit their job cuz they got a book published, you wait til the moneys comin' in, don'tcha?

Pop music ain't art, pop music is a racket.

I reckon that publishing's quite safe for now as the best way to read a book is still in the printed form no matter what all that Kindle cobblers has to say. The reason that the record industry is up shit creek is because the preferred medium is the one that's easiest to copy. The thing with digital music is that people don't see any inherent value in downloading an mp3 file. Remember back when you'd tape a record off a mate and you'd have this lower quality cassette whereas he'd have the real deal, dog's bollocks gatefold vinyl with all the liner notes and artwork and all that? There's a clear premium product worth parting with a few quid for there but these days an album on your iPod is an album on your iPod and it's identical whether you paid for it or nicked it. Personally I think that CDs are horrible little plasticky things that always looked fucking cheap and shit so charging £20 for one like they used to was a fuckin' piss take but proper good vinyl is well worth a few quid.

Pop music ain't art, pop music is a racket.

In more ways than one eh?

[Guest Len B'stard]

When you're skint enough to tape off a mate you don't give a toss about quality anyway, i know i didn't

[Apollo]

Right but i wasn't applying the 'industry is corrupt' principle here, i was just saying someone that quits his job to rely on the sales of a book that may or may not sell, as per Groghans hypothesis, he'd be fuckin' stupid. I have respect for the publishing industry and for authors, a lot more than the pop music industry anyway, i'd happily go out and pay for a book and do so when i got one i wanna read, i don't think i've ever downloaded a book. Actually, i tell a lie, i downloaded my first book a few days ago when Moz released his autobiography but i'm going out and buying that cuz i got respect for what it took to write that, i believe it has a right above and beyond pop music to be called art. Pop music has about as much to do with art as prostitution does. Not that art is the only enterprise that deserves financial recompense it's just prior to now, by classicrawker in particular, a lot was made of 'respect for the artist' when i have long since lost respect for the creators of pop music as artists, authors on the other hand I give that respect to.

Also, Groghans hypothesis was based on 'if it was you' and if it was me then what i outlined above would be the way i looked at it. Nobody on earth with an ounce of sense in their head ever quit their job cuz they got a book published, you wait til the moneys comin' in, don'tcha?

Pop music ain't art, pop music is a racket.

Len, my friend!!!! You are focusing on the wrong part.

The point wasn't him quitting his job to be an author.

So exclude that part.

Let's say YOU are working on your fifth novel.

You are making $40-50,000 a year as a full time author.

You release your sixth book.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

You go to the website and see that your book has been downloaded (for free) 30,000 times.

When you go back to your publisher to negotiate your next book deal and they say "Len, your past five novels have all sold about 30,000 copies. So we'll give you a two-book deal for $60,000. And here is your 2012 royalty check for $5,000."

You are going to be cool with the fact that the people stealing your book are literally costing you (and your family) thousands of dollars?

Instead of getting a new book deal for $60-75,000 and a yearly royalty check for $10,000.........the illegal downloads are making it so you only get HALF the money you should have earned.

I just don't get why people think it's OK to steal money from somebody - just because it is music or a book or a movie.

The guy who owns the local grocery store in my town is a millionaire and I think he charges too much for avocados, does that mean I'm allowed to shoplift all the food I want from his store?

[dalsh327]

Right but i wasn't applying the 'industry is corrupt' principle here, i was just saying someone that quits his job to rely on the sales of a book that may or may not sell, as per Groghans hypothesis, he'd be fuckin' stupid. I have respect for the publishing industry and for authors, a lot more than the pop music industry anyway, i'd happily go out and pay for a book and do so when i got one i wanna read, i don't think i've ever downloaded a book. Actually, i tell a lie, i downloaded my first book a few days ago when Moz released his autobiography but i'm going out and buying that cuz i got respect for what it took to write that, i believe it has a right above and beyond pop music to be called art. Pop music has about as much to do with art as prostitution does. Not that art is the only enterprise that deserves financial recompense it's just prior to now, by classicrawker in particular, a lot was made of 'respect for the artist' when i have long since lost respect for the creators of pop music as artists, authors on the other hand I give that respect to.

Also, Groghans hypothesis was based on 'if it was you' and if it was me then what i outlined above would be the way i looked at it. Nobody on earth with an ounce of sense in their head ever quit their job cuz they got a book published, you wait til the moneys comin' in, don'tcha?

Pop music ain't art, pop music is a racket.

Len, my friend!!!! You are focusing on the wrong part.

The point wasn't him quitting his job to be an author.

So exclude that part.

Let's say YOU are working on your fifth novel.

You are making $40-50,000 a year as a full time author.

You release your sixth book.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

You go to the website and see that your book has been downloaded (for free) 30,000 times.

When you go back to your publisher to negotiate your next book deal and they say "Len, your past five novels have all sold about 30,000 copies. So we'll give you a two-book deal for $60,000. And here is your 2012 royalty check for $5,000."

You are going to be cool with the fact that the people stealing your book are literally costing you (and your family) thousands of dollars?

Instead of getting a new book deal for $60-75,000 and a yearly royalty check for $10,000.........the illegal downloads are making it so you only get HALF the money you should have earned.

I just don't get why people think it's OK to steal money from somebody - just because it is music or a book or a movie.

The guy who owns the local grocery store in my town is a millionaire and I think he charges too much for avocados, does that mean I'm allowed to shoplift all the food I want from his store?

If a book publisher was also in the software business, and they decided to make free software as part of their ereader, but it also allowed you to share and download unlimited books and magazines, how is it the end user's fault? This is essentially what Sony did with selling CD burners, blank discs, and ripping software.

They didn't shoot themselves in the foot with their own technology?

Edited November 15, 2013 by dalsh327

[Dazey]

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

Oi! Why am I the ne'er do well thieving bastard here?

[classicrawker]

Right but i wasn't applying the 'industry is corrupt' principle here, i was just saying someone that quits his job to rely on the sales of a book that may or may not sell, as per Groghans hypothesis, he'd be fuckin' stupid. I have respect for the publishing industry and for authors, a lot more than the pop music industry anyway, i'd happily go out and pay for a book and do so when i got one i wanna read, i don't think i've ever downloaded a book. Actually, i tell a lie, i downloaded my first book a few days ago when Moz released his autobiography but i'm going out and buying that cuz i got respect for what it took to write that, i believe it has a right above and beyond pop music to be called art. Pop music has about as much to do with art as prostitution does. Not that art is the only enterprise that deserves financial recompense it's just prior to now, by classicrawker in particular, a lot was made of 'respect for the artist' when i have long since lost respect for the creators of pop music as artists, authors on the other hand I give that respect to.

Also, Groghans hypothesis was based on 'if it was you' and if it was me then what i outlined above would be the way i looked at it. Nobody on earth with an ounce of sense in their head ever quit their job cuz they got a book published, you wait til the moneys comin' in, don'tcha?

Pop music ain't art, pop music is a racket.

Len, my friend!!!! You are focusing on the wrong part.

The point wasn't him quitting his job to be an author.

So exclude that part.

Let's say YOU are working on your fifth novel.

You are making $40-50,000 a year as a full time author.

You release your sixth book.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

You go to the website and see that your book has been downloaded (for free) 30,000 times.

When you go back to your publisher to negotiate your next book deal and they say "Len, your past five novels have all sold about 30,000 copies. So we'll give you a two-book deal for $60,000. And here is your 2012 royalty check for $5,000."

You are going to be cool with the fact that the people stealing your book are literally costing you (and your family) thousands of dollars?

Instead of getting a new book deal for $60-75,000 and a yearly royalty check for $10,000.........the illegal downloads are making it so you only get HALF the money you should have earned.

I just don't get why people think it's OK to steal money from somebody - just because it is music or a book or a movie.

The guy who owns the local grocery store in my town is a millionaire and I think he charges too much for avocados, does that mean I'm allowed to shoplift all the food I want from his store?

If a book publisher was also in the software business, and they decided to make free software as part of their ereader, but it also allowed you to share and download unlimited books and magazines, how is it the end user's fault? This is essentially what Sony did with selling CD burners, blank discs, and ripping software.

They didn't shoot themselves in the foot with their own technology?

So because the technology is available to steal music that makes it acceptable for someone to do it? Sorry but I am not following your logic here.................

[Guest Len B'stard]

Right but i wasn't applying the 'industry is corrupt' principle here, i was just saying someone that quits his job to rely on the sales of a book that may or may not sell, as per Groghans hypothesis, he'd be fuckin' stupid. I have respect for the publishing industry and for authors, a lot more than the pop music industry anyway, i'd happily go out and pay for a book and do so when i got one i wanna read, i don't think i've ever downloaded a book. Actually, i tell a lie, i downloaded my first book a few days ago when Moz released his autobiography but i'm going out and buying that cuz i got respect for what it took to write that, i believe it has a right above and beyond pop music to be called art. Pop music has about as much to do with art as prostitution does. Not that art is the only enterprise that deserves financial recompense it's just prior to now, by classicrawker in particular, a lot was made of 'respect for the artist' when i have long since lost respect for the creators of pop music as artists, authors on the other hand I give that respect to.

Also, Groghans hypothesis was based on 'if it was you' and if it was me then what i outlined above would be the way i looked at it. Nobody on earth with an ounce of sense in their head ever quit their job cuz they got a book published, you wait til the moneys comin' in, don'tcha?

Pop music ain't art, pop music is a racket.

Len, my friend!!!! You are focusing on the wrong part.

The point wasn't him quitting his job to be an author.

So exclude that part.

Let's say YOU are working on your fifth novel.

You are making $40-50,000 a year as a full time author.

You release your sixth book.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

You go to the website and see that your book has been downloaded (for free) 30,000 times.

When you go back to your publisher to negotiate your next book deal and they say "Len, your past five novels have all sold about 30,000 copies. So we'll give you a two-book deal for $60,000. And here is your 2012 royalty check for $5,000."

You are going to be cool with the fact that the people stealing your book are literally costing you (and your family) thousands of dollars?

Instead of getting a new book deal for $60-75,000 and a yearly royalty check for $10,000.........the illegal downloads are making it so you only get HALF the money you should have earned.

I just don't get why people think it's OK to steal money from somebody - just because it is music or a book or a movie.

The guy who owns the local grocery store in my town is a millionaire and I think he charges too much for avocados, does that mean I'm allowed to shoplift all the food I want from his store?

Honestly, i wouldn't care. Especially if I was a few thousand to the good already and most especially if i was an author. If money were a primary concern and i was an author of the wit and talent to write novels of such popularity I could probably use the same literary wit elsewhere, in advertising or whatever and spare myself the effort, the the time and the expenditure of passion to write books were money my primary concern but were i to write books my interest first and foremost would be in people reading them, the more the better.

Art is a high minded pursuit, it is the need to express oneself as a physical and spiritual necessity and furthermore the cultures it informs and creates, to me, is the lifeblood of a peoples, this is why governments offer grants so that plays and such can be bought to people that they can't reach for free.

Call me a liar, call me a charlatan or call me a fool i believe these things to be self evident through the history of humankind. Music, art, literature, these things are free and they speak of freedoms, not just in their words or in the sounds of their melodies but in the fact that they exist, these things came first as an expression of the human soul, the fact that man has seen fit later to put a price tag on them or that artists now seek recompense as if they petty labourers is neither here nor there.

If this were a product, soap, shampoo, linen, literally anything else in the world i might agree with you…but art, really? Do you think Oscar Wilde gave a flying fuck about money as he wrote The Ballad of Reading Gaol or Wilfred Owen was thinking about money when he wrote Dulce Et Dacorum Est at Craiglockhart?

This isn't to (not does it) justify the thief that I am today but rather, to explain the artist i think I would be, which appears to be what you're asking of me, were I an author and i was presented with the above situation how would I feel, well I wouldn't be an author if money was my primary concern, if I was to be an author i think I'd be of far more high minded ideals than that.

That my feelings on issue based on the literary hypothesis you provided. Having said all that though, it's easy for me to sit here and be high minded and snotty when it's all hypothetical, when the moneys dangling right there is has the tendency to make many-a high minded aesthetes ideals go walkies but i can only speak for who I am in the here and now.

I'd like to think i'm a pretty down to earth guy 99.9% of the time but this, especially literature, is something i feel strongly about. Perhaps i read too much as a young man

As far as albums though, pop music, which is the core of what this is all really about, i make no attempt to justify, like I've been saying previously what I do is stealing and it's wilful stealing and i don't care if it's right or wrong, i have no pretensions regarding it's illegality, I'm a simple fella like that, eye for an eye, rip me off and i'm gonna rip you off back, I realise that that logic is flawed and an eye for an eye makes the world blind etc etc and two wrongs don't make a right but thats my response. It's like if i smacked you in the mouth I'd expect it back.

And yeah, if i was getting ripped off for avocados and avocados occupied a space in my life in the way music does and I could get away with it as quickly, cleanly and easily and consistently with virtually no risk of getting hit up for it, fuck yes, i would rob Mr store-owner of his avocados all day long. Once again, i realise that morally thats more Old Testament than New Testament but what can i say, i'm a black and white kinda guy.

Edited November 16, 2013 by sugaraylen

[Redhead74]

^^^ I agree Len, art is one of those things that people feel compelled to do whether they're making money or not. A painter is in a much worse situation. Most of the ones who contributed in a meaningful way to the world of visual art have rarely made a cent from their life's work. There are a few celebrity artists these days making millions but they are few and far between when you look at the overall scheme of things.

The unfortunate reality is that today we live in a world where everyone wants to be compensated for their efforts. But it's just tough luck when that no longer becomes possible. The only reason authors and musicians had such a good run for a long time was because their work was able to be reproduced in hundreds of thousands or millions of units and people would pay for it. Their gain came to existence in the first place due to the evolution of printing and manufacturing and now the evolution of technology has changed that again to their detriment. They can kick and scream all they like but it is what it is. They should accept they had a good run while it lasted. It's time for them to evolve to the same degree that technology did. That's just life.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

Oi! Why am I the ne'er do well thieving bastard here?

Be proud of the well earned and highly esteemed reputation you've made for yourself here, Christopher.

[classicrawker]

^^^ I agree Len, art is one of those things that people feel compelled to do whether they're making money or not. A painter is in a much worse situation. Most of the ones who contributed in a meaningful way to the world of visual art have rarely made a cent from their life's work. There are a few celebrity artists these days making millions but they are few and far between when you look at the overall scheme of things.

The unfortunate reality is that today we live in a world where everyone wants to be compensated for their efforts. But it's just tough luck when that no longer becomes possible. The only reason authors and musicians had such a good run for a long time was because their work was able to be reproduced in hundreds of thousands or millions of units and people would pay for it. Their gain came to existence in the first place due to the evolution of printing and manufacturing and now the evolution of technology has changed that again to their detriment. They can kick and scream all they like but it is what it is. They should accept they had a good run while it lasted. It's time for them to evolve to the same degree that technology did. That's just life.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

Oi! Why am I the ne'er do well thieving bastard here?

Be proud of the well earned and highly esteemed reputation you've made for yourself here, Christopher.

would you be O.K. if people stole your fashion designs and did not pay you for them? music is a musicians product and they deserved to be compensated for it the same as anyone else who produces a unique product..........if they chose to give it away for free that is their choice but unless they do no one has the right to steal their music without compensating them for if..............

[dalsh327]

Right but i wasn't applying the 'industry is corrupt' principle here, i was just saying someone that quits his job to rely on the sales of a book that may or may not sell, as per Groghans hypothesis, he'd be fuckin' stupid. I have respect for the publishing industry and for authors, a lot more than the pop music industry anyway, i'd happily go out and pay for a book and do so when i got one i wanna read, i don't think i've ever downloaded a book. Actually, i tell a lie, i downloaded my first book a few days ago when Moz released his autobiography but i'm going out and buying that cuz i got respect for what it took to write that, i believe it has a right above and beyond pop music to be called art. Pop music has about as much to do with art as prostitution does. Not that art is the only enterprise that deserves financial recompense it's just prior to now, by classicrawker in particular, a lot was made of 'respect for the artist' when i have long since lost respect for the creators of pop music as artists, authors on the other hand I give that respect to.

Also, Groghans hypothesis was based on 'if it was you' and if it was me then what i outlined above would be the way i looked at it. Nobody on earth with an ounce of sense in their head ever quit their job cuz they got a book published, you wait til the moneys comin' in, don'tcha?

Pop music ain't art, pop music is a racket.

Len, my friend!!!! You are focusing on the wrong part.

The point wasn't him quitting his job to be an author.

So exclude that part.

Let's say YOU are working on your fifth novel.

You are making $40-50,000 a year as a full time author.

You release your sixth book.

Are you cool with finding out that Dazey has set up freebooks.com, where he buys a novel and scans it into his website and makes it free for anybody to read?

You go to the website and see that your book has been downloaded (for free) 30,000 times.

When you go back to your publisher to negotiate your next book deal and they say "Len, your past five novels have all sold about 30,000 copies. So we'll give you a two-book deal for $60,000. And here is your 2012 royalty check for $5,000."

You are going to be cool with the fact that the people stealing your book are literally costing you (and your family) thousands of dollars?

Instead of getting a new book deal for $60-75,000 and a yearly royalty check for $10,000.........the illegal downloads are making it so you only get HALF the money you should have earned.

I just don't get why people think it's OK to steal money from somebody - just because it is music or a book or a movie.

The guy who owns the local grocery store in my town is a millionaire and I think he charges too much for avocados, does that mean I'm allowed to shoplift all the food I want from his store?

If a book publisher was also in the software business, and they decided to make free software as part of their ereader, but it also allowed you to share and download unlimited books and magazines, how is it the end user's fault? This is essentially what Sony did with selling CD burners, blank discs, and ripping software.

They didn't shoot themselves in the foot with their own technology?

So because the technology is available to steal music that makes it acceptable for someone to do it? Sorry but I am not following your logic here.................

Acceptable? No, but the company who makes it available has an obligation to let people know the potential penalties once they agree to download the software.

I think everything is going in a streaming/subscription direction anyway, so there would be no need to have a copy if you can access it at any time.