Spanking!

[magisme]

The problem with analytic approaches like this when it comes to social issues is that we're not talking about distinct elements which can simply be eliminated and then judged based on he effect of their elimination. In the social, there are no elements: there are entanglements. Displacement, substitution, sublimation, metonymy, etc. are foreign concepts to social scientists save psychoanalysts because social scientists apply models that don't fit the field of study.

[Thin White Duke]

Why are you saying this when I have hooked you up with scientific evidence that says that spanking is positively correlated with increased violence? Are you aware that you are deliberately ignoring evidence so you won't have to change your views on physical punishment on kids?

Scientific evidence my arse, thats not scientific evidence, thats a bunch of census statistic bullshit, scientific, please

Len, discussing with SM is not worth it. he will always throw a bunch of internet links into your face. The ones he is ok with, of course.

Some people have a lot of trouble understanding and respecting other people's positions. If that's how you're gonna be the perfect parent, you're doing it wrong.

[magisme]

Where did I say anything about personal anecdotes? A question like that is part of the same binary thinking that makes social scientists mangle their subject matter.

[pestilence]

my favorite part of said scientific research..." I haven't seen any research on this, but my anecdotal report is that if you talk to people in prison, you'll find they were all spanked."

[magisme]

Correlation vs. Causation. Social scientists be dumb about it.

[Thin White Duke]

"Scientific" research that says spanking is ok if the kids have love:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/10004517/Smacking-does-children-no-harm-if-they-feel-loved-study-claims.html

Edited May 19, 2014 by Thin White Duke

[magisme]

Where did I say anything about personal anecdotes? A question like that is part of the same binary thinking that makes social scientists mangle their subject matter.

You didn't, and I didn't say you did. I was asking because of your critique over social science but none about how the discussion's been going here for the most of the thread; people giving their personal anecdotes and how they feel about shit. Don't take it as an argument, a question's a question, can you answer it?

My answer is no. Anecdotes are extremely flawed as well.

[magisme]

Where did I say anything about personal anecdotes? A question like that is part of the same binary thinking that makes social scientists mangle their subject matter.

You didn't, and I didn't say you did. I was asking because of your critique over social science but none about how the discussion's been going here for the most of the thread; people giving their personal anecdotes and how they feel about shit. Don't take it as an argument, a question's a question, can you answer it?

My answer is no. Anecdotes are extremely flawed as well.

Thank you. Doesn't thinking that way make this discussion kinda pointless though, if both study and anecdotes are bullshit . I'd bet my money on social science, flawed of course but probably less than anecdotes..

Yeah, I agree that the discussion is kind of crap. To satisfy me we'd have to get all philosophical about the meaning of violence and what distinguishes the anti-social from the social and so on, and even then we wouldn't come up with answers if I had my way, because I don't like answers much - they make me suspicious.

[Guest Len B'stard]

I don't reckon all this looking down on the personal experience aspect. Nothing teaches you about life better than your own observations.

[magisme]

I don't reckon all this looking down on the personal experience aspect. Nothing teaches you about life better than your own observations.

I think there's sufficient room to distinguish between anecdotes and experience.... I think.

I laugh at myself, but it not just jokes, right? For example, the blanket idea that violence is anti-social. Really? I can't think of many things humans do more consistently when they get together in groups.

[Dazey]

Smacked children more successful later in life, study finds

Children who are smacked by their parents may grow up to be happier and more successful than those spared physical discipline, research suggests.

A study found that youngsters smacked up to the age of six did better at school and were more optimistic about their lives than those never hit by their parents. They were also more likely to undertake voluntary work and keener to attend university, experts discovered.

The research, conducted in the United States, is likely to anger childrens rights campaigners who have unsuccessfully fought to ban smacking in Britain. Currently, parents are allowed by law to mete out "reasonable chastisement'' on their children, providing smacking does not leave a mark or bruise. These limits were clarified in the 2004 Childrens Act.

But childrens groups and MPs have argued that spanking is an outdated form of punishment that can cause long-term mental health problems.

Marjorie Gunnoe, professor of psychology at Calvin College in Grand Rapids, Michigan, said her study showed there was insufficient evidence to deny parents the freedom to determine how their children should be punished.

She said: The claims made for not spanking children fail to hold up. They are not consistent with the data. I think of spanking as a dangerous tool, but there are times when there is a job big enough for a dangerous tool. You just dont use it for all your jobs.

The research questioned 179 teenagers about how often they were smacked as children and how old they were when they were last spanked.

Their answers were then compared with information they gave about their behaviour that could have been affected by smacking. This included negative effects such as anti-social behaviour, early sexual activity, violence and depression, as well as positives such as academic success and ambitions.

Those who had been smacked up to the age of six performed better in almost all the positive categories and no worse in the negatives than those never punished physically.

Teenagers who had been hit by their parents from age seven to 11 were also found to be more successful at school than those not smacked but fared less well on some negative measures, such as getting involved in more fights.

However, youngsters who claimed they were still being smacked scored worse than every other group across all the categories. Prof Gunnoe found little difference in the results between sexes and different racial groups.

The findings were rejected by the National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children, which has fought to ban smacking. A spokesman for the charity said: "The NSPCC believes that children should have the same legal protection from assault as adults do.

Other research has shown that smacking young children affects their behaviour and mental development, and makes them more likely to be anti-social. However, Parents Outloud, the pressure group, welcomed the research, saying parents should not be criminalised for mild smacking.

Its spokeswoman, Margaret Morrissey, said: It is very difficult to explain verbally to a young child why something they have done is wrong. A light tap is often the most effective way of teaching them not to do something that is dangerous or hurtful to other people it is a preventive measure.

While anything more than a light tap is definitely wrong, parents should be allowed the freedom to discipline their children without the fear that they will be reported to police. Aric Sigman, a psychologist and author of The Spoilt Generation: Why Restoring Authority will Make our Children and Society Happier, told the Sunday Times: The idea that smacking and violence are on a continuum is a bizarre and fetishised view of what punishment or smacking is for most parents.

If its done judiciously by a parent who is normally affectionate and sensitive to their child, our society should not be up in arms about that. Parents should be trusted to distinguish this from a punch in the face. Previous studies have suggested that smacking children can lead them to develop behavioural problems such as being more aggressive.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/6926823/Smacked-children-more-successful-later-in-life-study-finds.html

*hides*

Edited May 19, 2014 by Dazey

[arnold layne]

[Guest Len B'stard]

I laugh at myself, but it not just jokes, right? For example, the blanket idea that violence is anti-social. Really? I can't think of many things humans do more consistently when they get together in groups.

I was thinking to take the discussion down this path but i was worried that it might be viewed upon as somewhat atypical of me but it is what it is, violence is a reality of our world. It's not always a good thing and it has repercussions like anything else but, i dunno, violence is kinda like the great equaliser of life, isn't it? Thats not a good thing but it is a fact.

All this stuff about violence showing up how 'weak' the other person is, hmmmm, yeah, i get where you're coming from but at the same time like, when you're the one on the pavement collecting your molars up off the floor it's difficult to invest in that particular concept 100%.

Edited May 19, 2014 by sugaraylen

[magisme]

I laugh at myself, but it not just jokes, right? For example, the blanket idea that violence is anti-social. Really? I can't think of many things humans do more consistently when they get together in groups.

I was thinking to take the discussion down this path but i was worried that it might be viewed upon as somewhat atypical of me but it is what it is, violence is a reality of our world. It's not always a good thing and it has repercussions like anything else but, i dunno, violence is kinda like the great equaliser of life, isn't it? Thats not a good thing but it is a fact.

Also, an understanding of violence in total, if one can say such a thing, cannot and should not be restricted to physical violence.

[Guest Len B'stard]

It's like when Purple Aki catches up with Dazey in the toilets of Lime Street Station, will Aki be showing how weak he is compared to Dazey by raping him brutally up against a urinal til his screams echo across the platform?

[SoulMonster]

Why are you saying this when I have hooked you up with scientific evidence that says that spanking is positively correlated with increased violence? Are you aware that you are deliberately ignoring evidence so you won't have to change your views on physical punishment on kids?

Scientific evidence my arse, thats not scientific evidence, thats a bunch of census statistic bullshit, scientific, please

Len, discussing with SM is not worth it. he will always throw a bunch of internet links into your face. The ones he is ok with, of course.

Don't be like that. I have had 20-30 posts in this thread and only a couple have contained links to studies. And I would argue that if we were to discuss the effects of spanking and corporal punishments it is only relevant to point to scientific studies covering the subject. Don't you? And I am not cherry-picking studies here, either, I am pointing to current meta-studies (e.g. studies that summarizes the entire scientific corpus).

[Dazey]

What do people think about the ban on corporal punishment in schools?

Standards of behaviour these days are far worse than back when a teacher was allowed to give the kids a good kicking.

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

Teachers get no respect nowadays, it's ridiculous how far kids are allowed to go before they get 'punished'.

[SoulMonster]

I don't reckon all this looking down on the personal experience aspect. Nothing teaches you about life better than your own observations.

Your own observations only teach you about your own observations.

What you need to do is look at larger groups of humans and then divide them into two subgroups: one that have been spanked and one who hasn't. You can then look at differences in crime records, especially in regards to violence among these groups. If one of the groups differs from the other in a statistically significant manner, then that information is immensely more valuable than one's own personal experiences. In other word, the experiences of MANY is much more interesting than the experiences of ONE when it comes to establishing general trends among large population groups. If the groups are large enough, and the studies are done properly, you can reveal patter/trends/laws that are relevant for humans in general. This is trivial to one as intelligent as you.

Of course the studies underlying the findings that spanking cause a higher probability for violence and anti-social behaviour are much more complex than what I have sketched out above, for various reasons; I just wanted to describe the general principle. Dismissing group studies where thousands of people have been studied in favour of one's own highly limited experiences is a weird thing to do - do people think their own experiences are somehow more reflective of how humans behave than the accumulated experiences of thousands of others? That is so delightfully arrogant that it makes me all warm inside.

[Guest Len B'stard]

I went to school in Kashmir for a year in 1991 when i was like 7 or 8 years old and they still had punishment in schools. They used like, table legs, like the legs of a small coffee table to bash you on the back of the hand with (and even elsewhere) or they could give you back-handers or, the worst one, they'd send you out into the outer grounds of the school to break off a stick to bring back to them for them to beat your fuckin' arse with.

I'll tell you what, there weren't a single kid that stepped out of line in that fuckin' school

[SoulMonster]

What do people think about the ban on corporal punishment in schools?

Standards of behaviour these days are far worse than back when a teacher was allowed to give the kids a good kicking.

Corporal punishment IS bad behaviour.

[Thin White Duke]

Oh please, corporal punishment is still very frequent in schools. Only that now it's the other way around.

[Dazey]

What do people think about the ban on corporal punishment in schools?

Standards of behaviour these days are far worse than back when a teacher was allowed to give the kids a good kicking.

Corporal punishment IS bad behaviour.

Yeah but some kids deserve a good fucking walloping!!!

[magisme]

i flicked a student's forehead yesterday. Does that count?

[SoulMonster]

What do people think about the ban on corporal punishment in schools?

Standards of behaviour these days are far worse than back when a teacher was allowed to give the kids a good kicking.

Corporal punishment IS bad behaviour.

Yeah but some kids deserve a good fucking walloping!!!

Regardless, I don't think teachers should be empowered by the right to exercise violence on kids. I don't think anyone should. I am confident other tools are available to teachers as it is to parents.

The correlation between absence of corporal punishment in school and kids misbehaving, is also only correlation. We haven't had corporal punishment in Norwegian school in decades and as far as I know, the current generations are super-polite . Sure, hitting kids will make they behave, at least temporarily, but as I said, there are other ways. Using violence should never really be an option.