Things go from really bad to a lot worse in Iraq (and Syria)

[YOUCOULDBEMINE.]

lol, the US is nothing like Europe. Hasn't been for decades.

[Thin White Duke]

Nobody cares about this particular news, that is about the middle east falling into the lap of Jihadist terrorists, because the world cup has just started.

(At least I am honest!).

No one would care anyway.

[downzy]

I'm assuming you were referring to Shades in your post? Or should I be getting my psyche checked.

Yup I quoted the wrong post, very enlightening as to the quality of my psyche....

So for the sake of showing your ideology has no reasoning beyond the shallow display shown so far.

I am assuming now your thought process is that we let Bagdahdi and his reign of terror sweep in and take over Iraq? Along with all of the US weaponry laying about scattered across the country? Set up shop with control over billions of dollars worth of oil?

The irony here is that the U.S. and Iran are now on the same page. Both are now fighting a common enemy. The other irony is that had the U.S. provided military equipment to every group supported by John McCain, the U.S. would have provided arms to all sides to the conflict.

Obama now has the leverage to gain political concessions from Maliki where the Iraqi PM was reticent in the negotiations in 2011 as the violence had ebbed.

But understand Shades, the violence will continue regardless of American involvement so long as Maliki continues to govern how he has been governing. Continual suppression of the Sunni minority will provoke this response in perpetuity. Criticisms of Obama for the mess that was the Iraqi War in 2003 are blind to the realities on the ground. It's the Iraqi people that have clean up their mess so long as they want to.

[DR DOOM]

Yeah, but Obama!!!

[Georgy Zhukov]

Should we have any reason to believe that this administration has better planners than the previous?

[downzy]

Yeah, but Obama!!!

Damn it, I concede.

[downzy]

Should we have any reason to believe that this administration has better planners than the previous?

That's a good question.

Certainly these matters involve a certain level of judgement. It's not an exact science. So the policy analysts who are advising their higher-ups, who then advises the President, may make the same mistakes as previous administrations.

That said, let's not fogey the fact that Dick Cheney, as V.P., visited the head of the CIA numerous times prior to the lead up to the war, which was an unprecedented move for a VP to do. That he and Rumsfeld set up their own intelligence committee to parse out any information that would assist their argument about going to war in Iraq. And that the original document given to Colin Powell by that same committee established by Rumsfeld and Cheney in February of 2003, which was to be presented at the UN Security Council, was so rife with unsubstantiated and false claims that Powell and his Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage had to re-write it to include only CIA derived information. When Powell brought his objections up to Cheney prior to the speech, Cheney joked about how Powell had such high approval ratings the he could afford to take a hit. What's that tell you?

I can't speak for the current administration, but the previous one was prone to making up its mind and finding evidence to support their initial policy preferences rather than letting facts on the ground dictate policy. The rationale for war in Iraq was engineered. So far, I haven't seen that course of action coming from the present administration with respect to foreign policy.

Edited June 14, 2014 by downzy

[bran]

iraq needs to stand on their own two feet. the US cannot continue to hold their hands after a decade. it is already sad enough that our own people basically died for nothing in iraq.

[Georgy Zhukov]

iraq needs to stand on their own two feet. the US cannot continue to hold their hands after a decade. it is already sad enough that our own people basically died for nothing in iraq.

I think with air support, the ground forces can hold off an attack. Maybe grow enough balls to go on the offensive and reclaim some lost territory and even Mosul. Just would be nice if those planes come from other countries but the US. Qatar, Iran, Turkey...I mean what do they do with those fighters?

I guessing the Iraqi Air Force is still not ready to handle it on its own.

Should we have any reason to believe that this administration has better planners than the previous?

That's a good question.

Certainly these matters involve a certain level of judgement. It's not an exact science. So the policy analysts who are advising their higher-ups, who then advises the President, may make the same mistakes as previous administrations.

That said, let's not fogey the fact that Dick Cheney, as V.P., visited the head of the CIA numerous times prior to the lead up to the war, which was an unprecedented move for a VP to do. That he and Rumsfeld set up their own intelligence committee to parse out any information that would assist their argument about going to war in Iraq. And that the original document given to Colin Powell by that same committee established by Rumsfeld and Cheney in February of 2003, which was to be presented at the UN Security Council, was so rife with unsubstantiated and false claims that Powell and his Deputy Secretary of State Richard Armitage had to re-write it to include only CIA derived information. When Powell brought his objections up to Cheney prior to the speech, Cheney joked about how Powell had such high approval ratings the he could afford to take a hit. What's that tell you?

I can't speak for the current administration, but the previous one was prone to making up its mind and finding evidence to support their initial policy preferences rather than letting facts on the ground dictate policy. The rationale for war in Iraq was engineered. So far, I haven't seen that course of action coming from the present administration with respect to foreign policy.

We can only hope that each administration can learn its mistakes from the previous. I know people can get tired of the "Bush bashing" but it seems his administration is the one that just ignored everything that has happened and never planned ahead.

[AxlisOld]

iraq needs to stand on their own two feet. the US cannot continue to hold their hands after a decade. it is already sad enough that our own people basically died for nothing in iraq.

Jesus fuck, yes.

bran and I need to get hammered.

edit...as long as sports aren't involved. Pfft...Rangers...pfft, Yankees.

Edited June 14, 2014 by AxlisOld

[bran]

iraq needs to stand on their own two feet. the US cannot continue to hold their hands after a decade. it is already sad enough that our own people basically died for nothing in iraq.

Jesus fuck, yes.

bran and I need to get hammered.

edit...as long as sports aren't involved. Pfft...Rangers...pfft, Yankees.

what about the dolphins

[AxlisOld]

iraq needs to stand on their own two feet. the US cannot continue to hold their hands after a decade. it is already sad enough that our own people basically died for nothing in iraq.

Jesus fuck, yes.

bran and I need to get hammered.

edit...as long as sports aren't involved. Pfft...Rangers...pfft, Yankees.

what about the dolphins

No beef, the Dolphins don't regularly fuck my Seahawks. Rangers, beat Flyers. Yankees, fuck them in general, beat Mariners.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Europe and the U.S. have almost the same overall "system"....they're first cousins...almost brother and sister. So if you want to fault the U.S., you're faulting Europe too. (And by Europe, I mean the U.K. too... )

OK, yes, whats your point?

[magisme]

It's gonna turn out well this time.

[Georgy Zhukov]

Lets sit back and let Iran handle this. If they can't, then the US should send in fighters.

[Georgy Zhukov]

MSNBC is reporting that hundreds of Iraqi men are signing up to defend Bagdad. Iran is prepared to send assistance if asked.

[Johnny Drama]

I hope these bastards drown in their own blood as soon as they step into Baghdad by way of the local army. I'm sick of these cunts.

[Ace Nova]

Europe and the U.S. have almost the same overall "system"....they're first cousins...almost brother and sister. So if you want to fault the U.S., you're faulting Europe too. (And by Europe, I mean the U.K. too... )

OK, yes, whats your point?

You live in the UK. Do you feel you and your family are being oppressed? Is your quality of life better than the average family living in the Middle East?

[Guest Len B'stard]

Europe and the U.S. have almost the same overall "system"....they're first cousins...almost brother and sister. So if you want to fault the U.S., you're faulting Europe too. (And by Europe, I mean the U.K. too... )

OK, yes, whats your point?

You live in the UK. Do you feel you and your family are being oppressed? Is your quality of life better than the average family living in the Middle East?

What has any of that got to do with the idea that expecting other nations to accept imperialism, whether it's incarnation be of a moderate type or more pronounced, is wrong. The yardstick of whether a nation is oppressive in their dealings with other nations isn't always directly related to the way they treat their own citizens.

[Ace Nova]

Europe and the U.S. have almost the same overall "system"....they're first cousins...almost brother and sister. So if you want to fault the U.S., you're faulting Europe too. (And by Europe, I mean the U.K. too... )

OK, yes, whats your point?

You live in the UK. Do you feel you and your family are being oppressed? Is your quality of life better than the average family living in the Middle East?

What has any of that got to do with the idea that expecting other nations to accept imperialism, whether it's incarnation be of a moderate type or more pronounced, is wrong. The yardstick of whether a nation is oppressive in their dealings with other nations isn't always directly related to the way they treat their own citizens.

I used the word imperialism for its shock value initially. What were really talking about here is a system. It's not perfect but it's better than most

And in reality, the West's core belief in capitalism goes against tyranny and oppression at its very root.

[Guest Len B'stard]

Europe and the U.S. have almost the same overall "system"....they're first cousins...almost brother and sister. So if you want to fault the U.S., you're faulting Europe too. (And by Europe, I mean the U.K. too... )

OK, yes, whats your point?

You live in the UK. Do you feel you and your family are being oppressed? Is your quality of life better than the average family living in the Middle East?

What has any of that got to do with the idea that expecting other nations to accept imperialism, whether it's incarnation be of a moderate type or more pronounced, is wrong. The yardstick of whether a nation is oppressive in their dealings with other nations isn't always directly related to the way they treat their own citizens.

I used the word imperialism for its shock value initially. What were really talking about here is a system. It's not perfect but it's better than most

And in reality, the West's core belief in capitalism goes against tyranny and oppression at its very root.

I think the people we force it on would be better disposed to address that, wouldn't you say, otherwise we're playing with a marked deck. Edited June 14, 2014 by sugaraylen

[Ace Nova]

Europe and the U.S. have almost the same overall "system"....they're first cousins...almost brother and sister. So if you want to fault the U.S., you're faulting Europe too. (And by Europe, I mean the U.K. too... )

OK, yes, whats your point?

You live in the UK. Do you feel you and your family are being oppressed? Is your quality of life better than the average family living in the Middle East?

What has any of that got to do with the idea that expecting other nations to accept imperialism, whether it's incarnation be of a moderate type or more pronounced, is wrong. The yardstick of whether a nation is oppressive in their dealings with other nations isn't always directly related to the way they treat their own citizens.

I used the word imperialism for its shock value initially. What were really talking about here is a system. It's not perfect but it's better than most

And in reality, the West's core belief in capitalism goes against tyranny and oppression at its very root.

I think the people we force it on would be better disposed to address that, wouldn't you say, otherwise we're playing with a marked deck.

You would think so. And that's exactly what we tried to do with Iraq...and look at what is happening now.

[magisme]

Words like democracy, liberty, capitalism, communism and such should only be taken seriously in theory and philosophy. They're simply slogans in practice.

[NachoLZ]

Words like democracy, liberty, capitalism, communism and such should only be taken seriously in theory and philosophy. They're simply slogans in practice.

[Georgy Zhukov]

ISIL has decided to show the world how serious they are. They posted a tweet containing images of them beheading a Sunni police chief in his home

It is said that this group is so brutal and fucked up that even Al Qaeda distance themselves from them.