What do you think of Axl Rose as a songwriter?

[wasted]

So it might depend on the state of Izzy's demo? Or do Slash or Duff have to write sognificant parts on DNB to get a credit. The Chicago sessions seem like where they did stuff together?

[DieselDaisy]

Perfect Crime is another strange one; live in the 1980s it was introduced as Izzy's song (see Canter's book) yet Slash and Rose somehow pick up credits for it on the studio version!

Izzy brought it is and it was worked on by others in the band.

If it is being introduced by Axl in 1986 as ''...a new one by Mr. Izzy Stradlin'' though, you have to wonder as to the extent of Axl and Slash's contributions.

[wasted]

Izzy probably thought they ruined it.

[Rovim]

It's also in Slash's book. He says something like they got a lot of shit done in the studio one day, Izzy brought in the initial idea. His song. And it does sound like him imo.

I also think they've metalled it up. I like the result.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

I've seen different credits for Perfect Crime. I think Axl said on stage this is a Izzy Stradlin song. But basically that is Slash playing, I don't hear the Stonesy thing, it's like Parasite or another punky Izzy song.

Perfect Crime is Izzy lyrics?

Axl probably came up with the 12346678.

Bad Apples is another one I don't know who wrote lyrics. But my guess is Axl.

But point is that some songs or a lot were done musically and Axl just added vocals?

Singing lyrics over music isn't really songwriting?

It seems easier to look at Nov Rain or Breakdown and hear what he wrote.

Not trying to belittle what Axl does I'm just not a musician so have no idea about the process.

Writing lyrics does not normally make one a songwriter but a lyricist (if this was opera we were discussing you would call these writers 'librettists', as distinct from the 'composers'). Good examples of this are Bernie Taupin and Pete Brown. Axl however composed music also so qualifies as a songwriter.

I suppose you could argue Axl was largely just a lyricist on Appetite although he was working on 'November Rain' at the time and 'One In A Million' appeared soon enough.

[SoulMonster]

Perfect Crime is another strange one; live in the 1980s it was introduced as Izzy's song (see Canter's book) yet Slash and Rose somehow pick up credits for it on the studio version!

Izzy brought it is and it was worked on by others in the band.

If it is being introduced by Axl in 1986 as ''...a new one by Mr. Izzy Stradlin'' though, you have to wonder as to the extent of Axl and Slash's contributions.

They probably made some changes to it when they played it back in 1996. Sped it up, Slash added solo, Axl changed the melodic melody and deliverance, new backbeat from Adler and Duff. Then, when they were to record it for the UYIs they probably worked a bit more on it (although the version they played live in 86 sounds very close to what was released years later).

I've seen different credits for Perfect Crime. I think Axl said on stage this is a Izzy Stradlin song. But basically that is Slash playing, I don't hear the Stonesy thing, it's like Parasite or another punky Izzy song.

Perfect Crime is Izzy lyrics?

Axl probably came up with the 12346678.

Bad Apples is another one I don't know who wrote lyrics. But my guess is Axl.

But point is that some songs or a lot were done musically and Axl just added vocals?

Singing lyrics over music isn't really songwriting?

It seems easier to look at Nov Rain or Breakdown and hear what he wrote.

Not trying to belittle what Axl does I'm just not a musician so have no idea about the process.

Writing lyrics does not normally make one a songwriter but a lyricist (if this was opera we were discussing you would call these writers 'librettists', as distinct from the 'composers'). Good examples of this are Bernie Taupin and Pete Brown. Axl however composed music also so qualifies as a songwriter.

I suppose you could argue Axl was largely just a lyricist on Appetite although he was working on 'November Rain' at the time and 'One In A Million' appeared soon enough.

His attribututions weren't just to write "poems"/"lyrics" that would be sung over the song, but come up with the lyrical melodies, i.e. how those lyrics are actually sung.

[Rovim]

I suppose you could argue Axl was largely just a lyricist on Appetite although he was working on 'November Rain' at the time and 'One In A Million' appeared soon enough.

No, you really can't argue Axl was just a lyricist on Appetite. He also wrote most of the vocal melodies.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Rovim

[SoulMonster]

In addition, in the collaborative environment they had back then, Axl would probably come up with general suggestions on how the songs should be, like tempo, placements of breakdowns, and probably more detailed suggestions on various instrument parts.

[DieselDaisy]

Perfect Crime is another strange one; live in the 1980s it was introduced as Izzy's song (see Canter's book) yet Slash and Rose somehow pick up credits for it on the studio version!

Izzy brought it is and it was worked on by others in the band.

If it is being introduced by Axl in 1986 as ''...a new one by Mr. Izzy Stradlin'' though, you have to wonder as to the extent of Axl and Slash's contributions.

They probably made some changes to it when they played it back in 1996. Sped it up, Slash added solo, Axl changed the melodic melody and deliverance, new backbeat from Adler and Duff. Then, when they were to record it for the UYIs they probably worked a bit more on it (although the version they played live in 86 sounds very close to what was released years later).

I see no discernible difference beyond the superficial (i.e. production, overdubs). Guitar solos normally do not warrant a songwriting credit, nor do drum tracks.

I suppose you could argue Axl was largely just a lyricist on Appetite although he was working on 'November Rain' at the time and 'One In A Million' appeared soon enough.

No, you really can't argue Axl was just a lyricist on Appetite. He also wrote most of the vocal melodies.

Well that is why I said 'largely'.

[wasted]

I suppose you could argue Axl was largely just a lyricist on Appetite although he was working on 'November Rain' at the time and 'One In A Million' appeared soon enough.

No, you really can't argue Axl was just a lyricist on Appetite and that's because he wrote most of the vocal melodies.

Ok, this is question I have. So how does the vocal melody effect the music? Is it like a harmony with what is already there or does it effect the music?

You know in The Doors where Morrison sings Manseric his songs? And he goes well lets put a rock n roll band together and make a million bucks. Is Axl soing that in reverse?

I suppose you could argue Axl was largely just a lyricist on Appetite although he was working on 'November Rain' at the time and 'One In A Million' appeared soon enough.

No, you really can't argue Axl was just a lyricist on Appetite and that's because he wrote most of the vocal melodies.

Ok, this is question I have. So how does the vocal melody effect the music? Is it like a harmony with what is already there or does it effect the music?

You know in The Doors where Morrison sings Manseric his songs? And he goes well lets put a rock n roll band together and make a million bucks. Is Axl soing that in reverse?

[Rovim]

Well that is why I said 'largely'.

But no. Still no. He wrote MOST of the vocal melodies. He wasn't just a lyricist. To say he was largely just a lyricist is still wrong.

He did 2 main things as a songwriter in Appetite: writing most of the lyrics and writing most of the vocal melodies.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

The vocal melody is music. Vocal melodies are traditionally transcribed. If you look on sheet music to a song, you will see musical notation. Imagine a song such as Sweet Child but replace the ''she got a smile...'' with a scale: : ''Do, Re, Mi, Fa, Sol, La, Ti'', or imagine the singing replicated on a guitar or another instrument. That is a vocal melody.

[Rovim]

Ok, this is question I have. So how does the vocal melody effect the music? Is it like a harmony with what is already there or does it effect the music?

You know in The Doors where Morrison sings Manseric his songs? And he goes well lets put a rock n roll band together and make a million bucks. Is Axl soing that in reverse?

Ok, this is question I have. So how does the vocal melody effect the music? Is it like a harmony with what is already there or does it effect the music?

It's just the melody the singer is singing. As Diesel has explained, it's just notes. In this case, the notes written for a human to sing, using their vocal chords.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

Well that is why I said 'largely'.

But no. Still no. He wrote MOST of the vocal melodies. He wasn't just a lyricist. To say he was largely just a lyricist is still wrong.

He did 2 main things as a songwriter in Appetite: writing most of the lyrics and writing most of the vocal melodies.

Stop being so pedantically defensive about your hero! I was merely thinking out aloud. The fact that Axl was certainly more the songwriter (i.e. writing music on piano and guitar) on Illusion than he was on Appetite is irrefutable.

[Rovim]

Stop being so pedantically defensive about your hero! I was merely thinking out aloud. The fact that Axl was certainly more the songwriter (i.e. writing music on piano and guitar) on Illusion than he was on Appetite is irrefutable.

You were thinking aloud? I highly doubt there was much thinking if any involved. And I'm not being anything, you're just very wrong. Let me try again:

Axl couldn't have been, like you said, largely JUST a lyricist on Appetite as he wrote MOST of the vocal melodies to the lyrics as well.

He can't be largely just a lyricist AND also be the main writer of the vocal melodies. I was specifically addressing your comment about Axl as a songwriter on Appetite, not Illusions. That's not relevant. At all.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Rovim

[wasted]

So vocal melodies are songwriting even if they can be made up on the fly?

I think Axl's delivery and vocal performance on record and live is vital. In listening many hair metal bands looking for the next AFD I realised eventually. The attitude or vibe of the singer makes the record. For me. If the singer isn't convincing it's Tigertailz or sym shit.

[DieselDaisy]

My ultimate point was, Axl was more a songwriter on Illusion than he was on Appetite: he did not write anything instrumentally on Appetite which he did on Illusion. Perhaps this came across wrong in translation.

Edited November 27, 2015 by DieselDaisy

[wasted]

Ok, this is question I have. So how does the vocal melody effect the music? Is it like a harmony with what is already there or does it effect the music?

You know in The Doors where Morrison sings Manseric his songs? And he goes well lets put a rock n roll band together and make a million bucks. Is Axl soing that in reverse?

Ok, this is question I have. So how does the vocal melody effect the music? Is it like a harmony with what is already there or does it effect the music?

It's just the melody the singer is singing. As Diesel has explained, it's just notes. In this case, the notes written for a human to sing, using their vocal chords.

But you dont write them, then sing them. They just jam and then Axl turns up and starts singing or he just waits until they record something worth singing?

If anything i can type fast with my thumb. The only other things im good at are drinking and fucking black chicks.

[DieselDaisy]

Ok, this is question I have. So how does the vocal melody effect the music? Is it like a harmony with what is already there or does it effect the music?

You know in The Doors where Morrison sings Manseric his songs? And he goes well lets put a rock n roll band together and make a million bucks. Is Axl soing that in reverse?

Ok, this is question I have. So how does the vocal melody effect the music? Is it like a harmony with what is already there or does it effect the music?

It's just the melody the singer is singing. As Diesel has explained, it's just notes. In this case, the notes written for a human to sing, using their vocal chords.

But you dont write them, then sing them. They just jam and then Axl turns up and starts singing or he just waits until they record something worth singing?

If anything i can type fast with my thumb. The only other things im good at are drinking and fucking black chicks.

Yes, but if you required somebody else to sing that song, never having heard the song, then you need musical notation.

[wasted]

Really? Thats fucked up. Couldnt Bach just sing My Michelle by ear?

Edited November 27, 2015 by wasted

[Rovim]

My ultimate point was, Axl was more a songwriter on Illusion than he was on Appetite: he did not write anything instrumentally on Appetite which he did on Illusion. Perhaps this came across wrong in translation.

No, you were wrong. Your statement was factually incorrect. It's all in my previous post. He was not just largely a lyricist on Appetite, no matter how you slice it. This is because, again: he wrote most of the vocal melodies as well. Your "ultimate" point is not relvant, as I was just correcting your mistake about Axl as a songwriter on Appetite.

But you dont write them, then sing them. They just jam and then Axl turns up and starts singing or he just waits until they record something worth singing?

If anything i can type fast with my thumb. The only other things im good at are drinking and fucking black chicks.

You can come up with anything on the spot. It's all just notes. The importance of the notes the guitar player is playing compared to the notes the singer is singing is subjective.

Every note must be composed. Improvisation is still composing, difference is you think faster. You have to if you want to improvise.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

My ultimate point was, Axl was more a songwriter on Illusion than he was on Appetite: he did not write anything instrumentally on Appetite which he did on Illusion. Perhaps this came across wrong in translation.

No, you were wrong. Your statement was factually incorrect. It's all in my previous post. He was not just largely a lyricist on Appetite, no matter how you slice it. This is because, again: he wrote most of the vocal melodies as well. Your "ultimate" point is not relvant, as I was just correcting your mistake about Axl as a songwriter on Appetite.

What a pedant you are - complete pedant. Alright, alright, if you want to play the semantic game, I'll join in. If you look at what I wrote originally,

I suppose you could argue Axl was largely just a lyricist on Appetite although he was working on 'November Rain' at the time and 'One In A Million' appeared soon enough.

You will notice the words 'suppose', 'largely', the usage of the second person ('you') as well as the subjunctive mood ('could'). Now go and scurry off to wikipedia and search up those words and grammatical terms and see what you come up with - then get back to me.

[Rovim]

You will notice the words 'suppose', 'largely', the usage of the second person ('you') as well as the subjunctive mood ('could'). Now go and scurry off to wikipedia and search up those words and grammatical terms and see what you come up with - then get back to me.

Still, your comment was wrong. Axl wasn't largely JUST a lyricist on Appetite, simply cause he was also the MAIN contributor of the vocal melodies.

Edited November 27, 2015 by Rovim

[DieselDaisy]

My above grammar rather shields me from accusations of factual error since it was never a stance I adopted with any great conviction originally. It would be different if I put the same theory in the indicative,

You can argue Axl was a lyricist on Appetite

It would be even more forceful again if I said simply,

Axl was a lyricist on Appetite

in direct first person speech. But I didn't. I said,

I suppose you could argue Axl was largely just a lyricist on Appetite

Totally different thing!

[Rovim]

Fuck this shit.