Charles Manson dead!

[EvanG]

Seeing as Axl had a fascination with him, maybe he can write the soundtrack. Oh wait... he would have to release music. Never mind.

Too easy?

[Sosso]

Charles Manson was not a hippie. he just sympathized with them. That's what he said in several interviews @Len Cnut

[Len Cnut]

38 minutes ago, Sosso said:

Charles Manson was not a hippie. he just sympathized with them. That's what he said in several interviews @Len Cnut

Yes he went to great lengths in said interviews to colour himself variously as a beatnik, a product of WW2 or just a country boy, raised on Hank Williams and Lefty Frizzel.

[DieselDaisy]

It is a sufficient word though if we are discussing the implications of the Tate-La Bianca murders on the demise of the 1960s (as the theory goes).

PS

So for as it pertains to what Manson thought he was on about, a discernible Manson ideology if you will, I believe it was a mixture of racialism, eschatological gibberish combined with an 'eccentric' interpretation of the white album. 

Edited November 27, 2017 by DieselDaisy

[soon]

The US penal system is good at producing people like him.  Especially when it gets them as children. Then add the capitalist WASP repressive environment most of the women were raised in.  Mix that with LSD - used as a weapon by the CIA lets not forget - and the outcome isnt all that shocking at the end of the day.  

Its all so Americana right down to how they lived, for a time, on a hollywood fake-ranch town movie set.

[Ace Nova]

20 minutes ago, soon said:

The US penal system is good at producing people like him.  Especially when it gets them as children. Then add the capitalist WASP repressive environment most of the women were raised in.  Mix that with LSD - used as a weapon by the CIA lets not forget - and the outcome isnt all that shocking at the end of the day.  

Its all so Americana right down to how they lived, for a time, on a hollywood fake-ranch town movie set.

Sure, let's blame the U.S. government for creating Charles Manson and his followers.  

Is there anything you don't blame the U.S. government for?

 

[soon]

4 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Sure, let's blame the U.S. government for creating Charles Manson and his followers.  

 

 

Smart.  Because people arent a product of their environment. 

[Ace Nova]

Just now, soon said:

Smart.  Because people arent a product of their environment. 

Sure, they can be.  But to blame everything on the government, like you like to do in so many of your posts is absurd.

 

I'd love to have you as a judge if I ever were to get accused of something.  The pre-trial would go like this:

Soon: "KK you've been accused of an atrocious crime. How do you plea?"

Me, "Your honor, I plea not guilty.  I was raised in the United States and because of where I was raised, the government made me do it"

Soon: "Not guilty, case dismissed!"

 

[soon]

15 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Sure, they can be.  But to blame everything on the government, like you like to do in so many of your posts is absurd.

 

I'd love to have you as a judge if I ever were to get accused of something.  The pre-trial would go like this:

Soon: "KK you've been accused of an atrocious crime. How do you plea?"

Me, "Your honor, I plea not guilty.  I was raised in the United States and because of where I was raised, the government made me do it"

Soon: "Not guilty, case dismissed!"

 

I guess you must just notice post about the US more then my many other posts.  Thats your prerogative I suppose. But sometimes you go looking for it when its not there too.  If you read what I wrote you will not that I also blame WASP culture, the economic order, sexual repression, high society and gender power dynamics. Furthermore the penal system has its own illnesses in addition to be run by a corrupt regime.

You find me a case in a different nation were a govt worked to weaponize a drug and then set it free into the population, and then it produced destabilization and the group in question lived on a film set that epitomizes the country in question and we can talk.  I mean surely you dont think that the idea of a race war is a common facet of all developed countries, right?  They even reference the Black Panther Party for Self Defence for crying gout loud.  This was American as apple pie.

I have represented myself in court numerous times and have zero convictions.  So on that point your not totally misguided 

[Ace Nova]

1 hour ago, soon said:

I guess you must just notice post about the US more then my many other posts.  Thats your prerogative I suppose. But sometimes you go looking for it when its not there too.  If you read what I wrote you will not that I also blame WASP culture, the economic order, sexual repression, high society and gender power dynamics. Furthermore the penal system has its own illnesses in addition to be run by a corrupt regime.

You find me a case in a different nation were a govt worked to weaponize a drug and then set it free into the population, and then it produced destabilization and the group in circumstancesquestion lived on a film set that epitomizes the country in question and we can talk.  I mean surely you dont think that the idea of a race war is a common facet of all developed countries, right?  They even reference the Black Panther Party for Self Defence for crying gout loud.  This was American as apple pie.

I have represented myself in court numerous times and have zero convictions.  So on that point your not totally misguided 

There were millions of people living through those same circumstances yet only a handful decided to randomly go out and kill a bunch of innocent people.  That leads most people who think logically to conclude that it was 100% their doing and not the fault of outside influences.  If it was the fault of outside influences, tens of thousands of people would have done the same thing and killed tens of thousands of innocent people.

The same could be said for most other evil acts committed by evil people.  There are evil people in this world and evil people do evil things. 

 

Edited November 27, 2017 by Kasanova King

[soon]

5 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

There were millions of people living through those same circumstances yet only a handful decided to randomly go out and kill a bunch of innocent people.  That leads most people who think logically to conclude that it was 100% their doing and not the fault of outside influences.  If it was the fault of outside influences, tens of thousands of people would have done the same thing and killed tens of thousands of innocent people.

The same could be said for most other evil acts committed by evil people.  There are evil people in this world and evil people do evil things. 

 

Might be helpful if you actually addressed anything I said in any of your responses.  Because "millions of people" were not walkin the streets having spent most of their lives in jail.  Nor were millions of young women raised in those upper middle class positions walking the streets.  Had millions of people actually taken to habitual LSD use? Kinda doubt that too. They even had a hollywood sex predator in the story.  Cant get more American then that.

Your arguing against what you want to portray my conceit as and not what I actually said.

[DieselDaisy]

I wouldn't have thought it an uniquely American experience. What every state and civilisation, any era, is extremely good and consistent in producing are serial killers and general all-round psychopaths. Some of these maniacs even rise to the governing of their respective states!

[soon]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I wouldn't have thought it an uniquely American experience. What every state and civilisation, any era, is extremely good and consistent in producing are serial killers and general all-round psychopaths. Some of these maniacs even rise to the governing of their respective states!

This group of psychopaths is unsurprising given the conditions is what I said.  And the the trappings of the specific story is deeply rooted in Americana.  I mean I suppose Kenya might have a Holywood ranch set, but I dont think they do.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, soon said:

This group of psychopaths is unsurprising given the conditions is what I said.  And the the trappings of the specific story is deeply rooted in Americana.  I mean I suppose Kenya might have a Holywood ranch set, but I dont think they do.

Not everything is 'Americana': Charles Manson heard messages in the White Album, therefore should we blame Liverpool, England for the Tate La Bianca murders? 

[soon]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Not everything is 'Americana': Charles Manson heard messages in the White Album, therefore should we blame Liverpool, England for the Tate La Bianca murders? 

Rock n roll is Americana.  

But sure, Beatles were English, the henna and patchouli the hippies adorned themselves in was Indian, the pot was Mexican.  How does this relate to what I actually said?

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, soon said:

Rock n roll is Americana.  

But sure, Beatles were English, the henna and patchouli the hippies adorned themselves in was Indian, the pot was Mexican.  How does this relate to what I actually said?

You are certainly insinuating that people like Charles Manson are somehow an uniquely American phenomenon. 

[Ace Nova]

30 minutes ago, soon said:

Might be helpful if you actually addressed anything I said in any of your responses.  Because "millions of people" were not walkin the streets having spent most of their lives in jail.  Nor were millions of young women raised in those upper middle class positions walking the streets.  Had millions of people actually taken to habitual LSD use? Kinda doubt that too. They even had a hollywood sex predator in the story.  Cant get more American then that.

Your arguing against what you want to portray my conceit as and not what I actually said.

You're argument doesn't make any sense.  It probably was 'millions of people' that grew up as hippies and yes, probably took LSD at some point and had that 'Americana' influence.  Yet only a handful were demented serial killers.  If anything, they would be a statistical anomaly as most people that grew up in that era and under those circumstances probably ended up having very good, successful lives.  

[soon]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

You are certainly insinuating that people like Charles Manson are somehow an uniquely American phenomenon. 

I did say its unsurprising and I laid out the reasons why I view it that way.  And I also pointed out how steeped in Americana it all is. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, soon said:

I did say its unsurprising and I laid out the reasons why I view it that way.  And I also pointed out how steeped in Americana it all is. 

There has been serial killers before Columbus discovered America. It is the one thing we all do extremely well, producing serial killers!

[soon]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

There has been serial killers before Columbus discovered America. It is the one thing we all do extremely well, producing serial killers!

I never said anything to the contrary, if facts are something youre into

[DieselDaisy]

Luis Garavito, 147 victims (Columbia)? United States's fault.

Yang Xinhai, 67 murders (Chinese)? Uncle Sam's fault again.

Pichushkin, ''The Chessboard Killer'', 60 odd victims (Russia)? You guessed correctly? The United States of America.

I could go on...

And yes there are some notorious examples that are from the United States.

We all have them. Britain has Shipman, Saucy Jack, the Yorkshire Ripper (the old-school 'archetype' I'd say), the ''Moors' murderers'' (Hindley and Brady), that wanker who killed those two girls, Ian something or other etc etc. We all have them. It is the one thing humans are extremely good at producing whatever their environment, psychopaths. 

 

[Len Cnut]

Personally, i think some people are just fuckin' evil.  And I'm not happy with that explanation because it is lacking in reason.  But ultimately i think thats it, there are just some mad fuckers out there, ones that logic can't...explain.  Which is not to say that envoirnment don't have some kind of a bearing and the various psychological explanations of this shit aren't valuable because they are...but at the same time I just think there are some serious loonies out there. 

[SoulMonster]

Morality has a genetic basis, and since genetics differ between individuals some will inherently be weaker in that regards and be more prone to various anti-social behaviours. Then the environment can either augment or suppress this, to various extent.

In my opinion, and this is nothing but musings from my side, you could take ANY baby and through fucked up environment turn that kid into a monster. Similarly, some kids are so genetically fucked up they become monsters no matter how they are brought up. The most reasonable explanation for most serial killers - again, in my humble opinion - is bad genes combined with bad environment.

 

[Len Cnut]

I always found that Leopold and Loeb case fascinating...cuz what reason could those two possibly have had?

[SoulMonster]

20 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

"Morality has a genetic basis"...does it? 

Yes, every human behaviour has a genetic basis. Our genes either allows us to do certain things by providing us with the means to do them (like genes encoding wings in birds allowing them to fly), or more directly induce and/or control our behaviour (like genes encoding migrating behaviour in migrating birds).

So yes, if humans are moral creatures then at least we must have genes allowing this behaviour. And these genes can become corrupted resulting in anti-moral behaviour. 

Scientists have also started to unravel the connection between specific genes and specific components of morality, like empathy, indicating that our genes not only allow us to be moral, but induces us to be moral. So empathy, as an example of a moral component, is not just something we learn through our environment and which our genetics allows us to have, but a gene-encoded trait in humans that we are born with. 

From an evolutionary viewpoint it is also obvious how morality can develop in a social species. You also see aspects of human morality in other social species, like altruism, a sense of fairness, and empathy.

So we both have the data indicating that our genes confer morality, and the theory explaining why it must be so, which together imply that morality is something we are, more or less, born with. And the more or less comes down to genetic differences between individuals. The individual variation is pretty large.

Edited November 28, 2017 by SoulMonster