The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[Iron MikeyJ]

2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

the plot thickens..

I don't.  But I assume its to do with a day off work, presents, an excuse to get together with family and a good ol' booze up.  You don't have to take the Christ out of Christmas to celebrate it, you can just ignore it or not give a fuck about it.

I figured you would answer like this, lol. I also assume you probably dont put up a tree and all that either. So in a way, you really are not celebrating it. But there are others, that I'm sure have a tree up in there house as we speak. That's who I'm more posing this question for.

[Len Cnut]

11 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I figured you would answer like this, lol. I also assume you probably dont put up a tree and all that either. So in a way, you really are not celebrating it. But there are others, that I'm sure have a tree up in there house as we speak. That's who I'm more posing this question for.

I'm not celebrating it in any way, which is why my post began with 'i don't'.  I was just speaking for a great deal of the population that do.  People don't give a fuck Michael.  Not everyones that preoccupied with the world and where we come from and meaning and all that shit, most of the worlds population just tend to crack on with shit.  Anyway, surely its to the benefit of these atheists that they celebrate it, its kinda bringing them closer to Jesus in a way right, your calling them hypocrites is not doing the cause any favours.  The more of these Godless sons of bitches celebrating Christmas the better surely?  Does the tree really have much to do with Christianity anyway?

Edited December 11, 2018 by Len Cnut

[soon]

In the modern context, Christian holidays being observed universally has a lot to do with Christianity's role in establishing the 5 day work week and other wins against Capitalism. Christians and Jews worked closely with the marxist and anarchist in these labour battles (or were already both Christian and Anarchist or whatever). Its no coincidence that the weekend is the Sabbath and Sunday service. And by the work day ending at 5, Jewish people have a chance to make the Sabbath preparations before sundown. The people united around shared interests and put forward arguments for 40 hour work week, sick days, holidays, etc. And the united people were able to win a Christmas Statutory holiday for everyone.

[Len Cnut]

If all the non believers backed out of Christmas tommorow Christmas as we know it would be over.

[EvanG]

7 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Why do you feel the need to celebrate Christmas and Easter? 

I'm sure many of you will point to the secular traditions,

I don't really celebrate it. Like you said, it's tradition. More people than you realize have no idea what the exact correlation between Christmas and Easter and religion is, so for them it's another holiday to spend time with family and loved ones and it has nothing to do with Jesus.

[Len Cnut]

Hypocrisy would be if you went to church or prayed to Jesus that time of the year or went to midnight mass with a solemn heart to commemorate the birth of Jesus (which I'm led to believe was in April), just not giving a fuck isn't because there's no contradiction there.  Its kinda like saying you can't hate capitalism or whatever and then enjoy its fruits like store bought cigarettes or iphones...I mean an anarchist who blows up Wall Street tommorow is hardly lacking in commitment to the cause if he happened to use an iphone at some point to co-ordinate the attack with his minions. 

[EvanG]

A lot of folks only go to church on Christmas because the local kids often do a cute play and that's a lot more fun than a regular mass which is the biggest yawn fest you can imagine.

[Len Cnut]

Yeah my little nieces and nephews often get involved in the Nativity Play at school and they're muslims.  Never really question it myself.

[EvanG]

But it is very hypocritical. I never went to church much as a kid, but my parents actually forced me to go to mass on Christmas for a couple of years when I was a kid... while my mom isn't even religious, so what the fuck that was all about I will never understand.

[SoulMonster]

46 minutes ago, soon said:

Yeah, thanks I'll pass on a survey that allows Muricans to opt in, self identifying as Christians (and other faiths).

There are studies that look at theism in general, not only christianity 

Anyway, there isn't any strong correlation between morality and religiosity. At least meta studies haven't found any as far as I have seen. 

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if some theists were slightly more moral than non-believers, because they would have the baseline morality we are all born with and which is nurtured in our upbringing, AND a religious requirement/encouragement to act good. It seems plausible to me. Yet there doesn't seem to be, or if there is, the difference could easily just be accounted for that extra theistic doctrine.  So I will repeat it, christians or other theists aren't any better than others. We struggle with the same things and having faith does not seem to offer much help. 

Which of course implies that one can easily be good with faith, and vice versa. Our innate humanity seem to completely override any religious aspirations. The dirt cannot easily be scrubbed off. 

[Iron MikeyJ]

9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

I'm not celebrating it in any way, which is why my post began with 'i don't'.  I was just speaking for a great deal of the population that do.  People don't give a fuck Michael.  Not everyones that preoccupied with the world and where we come from and meaning and all that shit, most of the worlds population just tend to crack on with shit.  Anyway, surely its to the benefit of these atheists that they celebrate it, its kinda bringing them closer to Jesus in a way right, your calling them hypocrites is not doing the cause any favours.  The more of these Godless sons of bitches celebrating Christmas the better surely?  Does the tree really have much to do with Christianity anyway?

My point was NOT to turn people off from celebrating it, because yes the more people celebrating it the better. The hypocrite comment (was a bit harsh, and for that I apologize). You just dont see nonJews lighting the menorah, so why do nonChristians feel the need to celebrate Christmas? That's kinds my point. Why do you celebrate something you dont believe in? That's what I dont understand. 

[EvanG]

4 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

That's kinds my point. Why do you celebrate something you dont believe in? That's what I dont understand. 

Again, for a lot of people it has nothing to do with religion. It's a holiday, it's about santa clause, it's about presents, it's about food. Etc.

[Len Cnut]

14 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

My point was NOT to turn people off from celebrating it, because yes the more people celebrating it the better. The hypocrite comment (was a bit harsh, and for that I apologize). You just dont see nonJews lighting the menorah, so why do nonChristians feel the need to celebrate Christmas? That's kinds my point. Why do you celebrate something you dont believe in? That's what I dont understand. 

Because Christianity was the dominant religion (still is probably) and this is a leave over from that.  I mean you were once a non believer right?  What was going through your mind in them days when you celebrated Christmas, its really not a complex proposition.  Also, a Menora and a Christmas tree are not on the same level, Christian theology does not ordain plastic trees with fairy lights on them.

[SoulMonster]

56 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I have a question for (nonChristians) here, not judgemental or arguementive, but rather out of curiosity... Why do you feel the need to celebrate Christmas and Easter? 

I'm sure many of you will point to the secular traditions, but even those secular traditions date back to Christian traditions. Also (before someone mentions Saturnalia and Yule) I am FULLY capable of debunking incorrect information that is being spread in regards to those (like Adam ruins everything is NOT factually correct).

Dont get me wrong, I'm all for EVERYONE celebrating the birth and death of Christ (Christmas and Easter), after all he is your savior as well. I guess my issue is secular society seems to really trying to pervert those holidays and turn them into something else. Which as a Christian I find offensive. Secular society couldn't pervert Hannuka or an Islamic holiday (forgive me I dont know any by name), without some sort of backlash. Yet the Christian holidays are very much under attack, and most dont even bat an eye. 

I welcome and encourage everyone here to celebrate Christmas. But I find atheists and others that do, somewhat hypocritical (not trying to fire anyone up, just being honest here). No matter how you try, you cant take CHRIST out of Christmas, you just cant do it, its IN the name CHRIST'S MASS. I'm not saying its inappropriate for you to celebrate something during the holiday season or buy and exchange gifts. But the putting up a Christmas tree or Christmas decorations, etc... See my point? You are STILL celebrating Christ whether you like it or not. Which is great, he is your savior, but yet you claim to not believe in him. I just dont really understand why you do it then? Tradition? Well it is a CHRISTIAN tradition. So again...

I guess my point is, as we near Christmas, I hope you all keep that in mind when you open up your presents under your Christmas tree. You are still celebrating Christmas, a Christian holiday. I dont think nonchristians have any right to put expectations on Christian's during a Christian holiday (which IS going on right now). 

I guess in the spirit of fairness, if nonChristians still want to celebrate something during the holidays, Seinfield already gave you an idea. Put up your festivus pole, and put your gifts under that. Make up your own holiday to celebrate. But I'm sorry, you cant have Christmas. You are more than welcome to celebrate it, but be respectful to those of us that ARE actually celebrating the birth of Christ. Just a thought...

I celebrate Jul, and there are few if any christian aspects to our celebration of Jul. 

Jul was here before christianity, and obviously will survive its passing. 

[soon]

11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

There are studies that look at theism in general, not only christianity 

Anyway, there isn't any strong correlation between morality and religiosity. At least meta studies haven't found any as far as I have seen. 

Personally I wouldn't be surprised if some theists were slightly more moral than non-believers, because they would have the baseline morality we are all born with and which is nurtured in our upbringing, AND a religious requirement/encouragement to act good. It seems plausible to me. Yet there doesn't seem to be, or if there is, the difference could easily just be accounted for that extra theistic doctrine.  So I will repeat it, christians or other theists aren't any better than others. We struggle with the same things and having faith does not seem to offer much help. 

Which of course implies that one can easily be good with faith, and vice versa. Our innate humanity seem to completely override any religious aspirations. The dirt cannot easily be scrubbed off. 

I did note "and other Faiths" and you just quoted it.

The question is flawed from the outset inso far as its applied to Christianity. We come to Christ in our knowledge that we are sinners. The notion of becoming a better person is an outsider proposition that assumes one comes to faith to better themselves in a worldly way.

That said the moment and journey of Salvation does transform a person. Having an apostle state gifts of the Spirt - or far better for purposes, the core of Chrsts way - is a clear indication that the Christian journey takes care, time and nurturing to flourish. We will never be Christ like, but its the work that bares fruit. So, given that Scripture is instructive with regards to a journey of understandin and renewal, we can clearly see that Christianity wasnt set up as a magical, one stop, self help system.

[Len Cnut]

I probably would celebrate Christmas if I could, in the proper family sense of it, I think its really nice.  Including the religious aspect (meaning i think the religious aspect is nice, not that I'd engage in it though i wouldn't mind going to church either).

[SoulMonster]

58 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Evolution is the strict sense of the word yes, I just mean in 2000 years (i hope) we're a little more knowledgable about shit than they were back in the day.  

We are a lot more knowledgeable. And generally speaking, theism, and any other belief in the supernatural, does not thrive in knowledgeable, rational societies. If you are going to believe in bullshit, it really helps if you are ignorant (or stupid). 

Back when chrstianity evolved from judaism, people weren't by far as knowledgeable as we are today, and theisms could exploit this ignorance by presenting answers to all we didn't know - the god of the gaps (in our knowledge) theory. 

As I said, christianity didn't appeal as much to knowledgeable, intelligent people (because it isn't a knowledgable, intelligent religion), but to people who wanted hope, social salvation, and identity. 

 

[Len Cnut]

9 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

If you go to Church and enjoy it I'll join Catholicism. 

I've been to church before y'know   As for enjoy it, well, depends what you mean by enjoy.  It wasn't the best time of my life but it was alright, as an impartial observer, it doesn't do to go through life being militant about shit, its just a building where people gather, often some quite nice people, its not like I joined the fuckin' Moonies

[EvanG]

2 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

If you go to Church and enjoy it I'll join Catholicism. 

You wouldn't like the communion bread, that shit's hard to swallow. I'm not kidding.

[Len Cnut]

12 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

We are a lot more knowledgeable. And generally speaking, theism, and any other belief in the supernatural, does not thrive in knowledgeable, rational societies. If you are going to believe in bullshit, it really helps if you are ignorant (or stupid). 

Back when chrstianity evolved from judaism, people weren't by far as knowledgeable as we are today, and theisms could exploit this ignorance by presenting answers to all we didn't know - the god of the gaps (in our knowledge) theory. 

As I said, christianity didn't appeal as much to knowledgeable, intelligent people (because it isn't a knowledgable, intelligent religion), but to people who wanted hope, social salvation, and identity. 

 

But if what Dies' says is true, and I have no particular reason to doubt it, and people in those times were also reasonably far along in terms of like...rationale thought etc then it makes the whole thing that much more interesting because you can't just say 'oh they were thick in them days' (thick is a extreme term but you know what I mean).

11 minutes ago, EvanG said:

You wouldn't like the communion bread, that shit's hard to swallow. I'm not kidding.

Its a fuckin' wafer innit, i thought it'd dissolve, i thought that was the point of it. 

Edited December 11, 2018 by Len Cnut

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, soon said:

That said the moment and journey of Salvation does transform a person.

Obviously, not in a moral sense that is apparent on the outside  Because if it did, there would be empiri indicating that christians are better people than the rest of us. 

 

[Len Cnut]

9 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

I've been to church several times - hated it. I'm just winding you up. If I ever kids they can be Christian if they want. 

I actually recall enjoying bits of it.  We used to go during Harvest festival and you'd sing hymns or whatever, that was nice, half a day out of class and you get to all go to this place, give to charity and have a bit of a sing song, beats the hell out of doing long division when you're 8 yrs old or however old I was.

[soon]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Obviously, not in a moral sense that is apparent on the outside  Because if it did, there would be empiri indicating that christians are better people than the rest of us. 

 

Thats not the Chrsitian world view. You will always be at a loss if you apply your understanding, overlaid on Christianity.

But for the sake of gameplay. MLK is a better person than you!

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

But if what Dies' says is true, and I have no particular reason to doubt it, and people in those times were also reasonably far along in terms of like...rationale thought etc then it makes the whole thing that much more interesting because you just say 'oh they were thick in them days' (thick is a extreme term but you know what I mean).

Again, there is a difference between being intelligent and being knowledgable. As I said, people back then was just as intelligent as us, but they didn't know as much. 

[EvanG]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

But if what Dies' says is true, and I have no particular reason to doubt it, and people in those times were also reasonably far along in terms of like...rationale thought etc then it makes the whole thing that much more interesting because you just say 'oh they were thick in them days' (thick is a extreme term but you know what I mean).

Its a fuckin' wafer innit, i thought it'd dissolve, i thought that was the point of it. 

Officially you're not allowed to chew on it because then you're chewing on Jesus. I've always had trouble swallowing it... once it got stuck down my throat and I started to panic. Good excuse to bring a beer to chuch.