The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[SoulMonster]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

Exceedingly frosty.

It is because you tend to think in binary terms. Either/or. Nothing in-between. No nuances, no complexity. To you, everything is a caricature. Germans are like this. English are like that. Haha. Etc. You are even that way yourself re: GN'R, either the "biggest fan they had" or, now, their harshest critique. No room for complexity of opinion. No middle ground. So when I happen to enjoy arguing against the wildest and most baseless criticism that the band gets, and even are positive of some aspects, then, in your eyes I become an apologist of everything GN'R. And thus I must be a fan of the merchandise. It follows from your binary mind.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

It is because you tend to think in binary terms. Either/or. Nothing in-between. No nuances, no complexity. To you, everything is a caricature. Germans are like this. English are like that. Haha. Etc. You are even that way yourself re: GN'R, either the "biggest fan they had" or, now, their harshest critique. No room for complexity of opinion. No middle ground. So when I happen to enjoy arguing against the wildest and most baseless criticism that the band gets, and even are positive of some aspects, then, in your eyes I become an apologist of everything GN'R. And thus I must be a fan of the merchandise. It follows from your binary mind.

Exceedingly exceedingly frost (fuck me, it's too easy this). 

[SoulMonster]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Exceedingly exceedingly frost (fuck me, it's too easy this). 

Now you need to give me something to work on. I can't do this on my own. I need inspiration. A primer. A nucleus for my frosty crystallization. Why don't you tell us how atheists could never create great works of art?

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, SoulMonster said:

Now you need to give me something to work on. I can't do this on my own. I need inspiration. A primer. A nucleus for my frosty crystallization. Why don't you tell us how atheists could never create great works of art?

Well it is not that bad seen in a certain light. You atheists put yourself down too much. Few trees maybe? Lick of paint?

[SoulMonster]

On ‎08‎.‎12‎.‎2018 at 12:26 AM, DieselDaisy said:

Well it is not that bad seen in a certain light. You atheists put yourself down too much. Few trees maybe? Lick of paint?

With 97 % theists in Germany at the time, I am sure this was both designed and built by christians.

On ‎07‎.‎12‎.‎2018 at 10:22 PM, SoulMonster said:

What will happen?

Where?

You presented what?

Still waiting for this, @soon.

[DieselDaisy]

7 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

With 97 % theists in Germany at the time, I am sure this was both designed and built by christians.

Auschwitz-Monowitz was actually built by IG Farben. (It of course goes without saying that slave labour did the specific manual building, mostly Poles and Jews).

Edited December 9, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[SoulMonster]

27 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Auschwitz-Monowitz was actually built by IG Farben. (It of course goes without saying that slave labour did the specific manual building, mostly Poles and Jews).

The equivalent of digging one's own grave. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

The equivalent of digging one's own grave. 

Well they're very cynical like that, the Nazis. The camps were not even operated by Germans to a great extent but by the prisoners themselves. Firstly they were Kapos, usually Aryan political and criminal prisoners who had been given a position of authority as overseers - they were often more brutal in their treatment of prisoners than the SS. They were given extra privileges such as alcohol and even access to prostitutes! And then there were Jewish Sonderkommandos whose job it was to operate the crematoria and remove the bodies; they were given better barracks and were allowed to rifle through stolen goods for extra food as well as goods to sell on the black market (the SS would throw a blind eye to this). There were usually over 800 Sonderkommandos to around 120 SS personnel at Auschwitz. The Germans periodically sent Sonderkommandos to the gas chambers, replacing them with new Sonderkommandos, as they didn't like the fact they had ''knowledge'' of the workings of the camp.

[Lio]

7 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well they're very cynical like that, the Nazis. The camps were not even operated by Germans to a great extent but by the prisoners themselves. Firstly they were Kapos, usually Aryan political and criminal prisoners who had been given a position of authority as overseers - they were often more brutal in their treatment of prisoners than the SS. They were given extra privileges such as alcohol and even access to prostitutes! And then there were Jewish Sonderkommandos whose job it was to operate the crematoria and remove the bodies; they were given better barracks and were allowed to rifle through stolen goods for extra food as well as goods to sell on the black market (the SS would throw a blind eye to this). There were usually over 800 Sonderkommandos to around 120 SS personnel at Auschwitz. The Germans periodically sent Sonderkommandos to the gas chambers, replacing them with new Sonderkommandos, as they didn't like the fact they had ''knowledge'' of the workings of the camp.

There were even Jewish Kapos, who treated their fellow Jewish prisoners even worse. So odd. They can't have felt that Jews were Untermenschen or inferior, as they were Jews themselves. How do you justify your behaviour then? Not that I think your behaviour can be justified when you regard another human as inferior because of their race/gender/whatever, but still... They don't have the 'excuse' of: Oh, but it's only Jews. And they weren't forced to treat the prisoners as badly as they did. They chose to do so. Incomprehensible.

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, Lio said:

There were even Jewish Kapos, who treated their fellow Jewish prisoners even worse. So odd. They can't have felt that Jews were Untermenschen or inferior, as they were Jews themselves. How do you justify your behaviour then? Not that I think your behaviour can be justified when you regard another human as inferior because of their race/gender/whatever, but still... They don't have the 'excuse' of: Oh, but it's only Jews. And they weren't forced to treat the prisoners as badly as they did. They chose to do so. Incomprehensible.

The Israelis tried to prosecute some of the Jewish collaborators for war crimes in the 1950s and '60s.

Opportunism I believe (ideology wouldn't play a part). Initially survival but then opportunism. Maybe there is an element of that school psychology, whereby bullied children make the worst bullies (to deflect attention from themselves, as a form of self-preservation) - well, I'm going too far into psychology which is not a subject I know much about.

All you can say is the Nazis created a brutal system which pitted prisoner against prisoner.

[Lio]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The Israelis tried to prosecute some of the Jewish collaborators for war crimes in the 1950s and '60s.

Opportunism I believe (ideology wouldn't play a part). Initially survival but then opportunism. Maybe there is an element of that school psychology, whereby bullied children make the worst bullies (to deflect attention from themselves, as a form of self-preservation) - well, I'm going too far into psychology which is not a subject I know much about.

All you can say is the Nazis created a brutal system which pitted prisoner against prisoner.

Yeah, true. Plus you have evil asshole psychopaths everywhere, of course.

I know of some kapos eventually losing their status and ending up in camps along with their prisoners. They encountered swift justice.

[DieselDaisy]

1 hour ago, Lio said:

Yeah, true. Plus you have evil asshole psychopaths everywhere, of course.

I know of some kapos eventually losing their status and ending up in camps along with their prisoners. They encountered swift justice.

That would have only ever been the outcome for all of them until the collapse of the regime.

[Len Cnut]

Its makes fuckin' sense though, morally fuckin' ugly though it is when you're facing the fuckin' chop I'd imagine more than a few people would send their own up the river.  On the topic of ugliness in WW2 and the fucked up people is brought out, check this fucker out, I cant believe this man existed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger

Edited December 9, 2018 by Len Cnut

[Len Cnut]

Quote

There were even Jewish Kapos, who treated their fellow Jewish prisoners even worse. So odd. They can't have felt that Jews were Untermenschen or inferior, as they were Jews themselves. How do you justify your behaviour then? Not that I think your behaviour can be justified when you regard another human as inferior because of their race/gender/whatever, but still... They don't have the 'excuse' of: Oh, but it's only Jews. And they weren't forced to treat the prisoners as badly as they did. They chose to do so. Incomprehensible.

Because you probably hate Jews for being Jewish and being like...the cause of all this shit, even though you are Jewish.  And envoirnment plays a big part too, I mean if anti-semitism is literally EVERYWHERE, its hard not get caught up in it to some degree.  Envoirnment is so powerful, it can have you believing all sorts of things, like black people back in the day, a great many actually believed they were inferior, some argue that even today a lot of black people are kinda prey to these forms of thinking.  Also if its gonna get you on the commandants good side, i.e. you get free booze and prossies, I can imagine a few thinking why not stick the boot in, its happening all around you anyway, not like you can save them from this immense machinery.  

I think the human race meets a psychopath halfway and we all have a lot of psychopathic or unempathetic or animalistic traits that have been suppressed by circumstances.

[soon]

Like the Stanford Prison Experiment 

[Sosso]

I wouldn't describe myself as religious anymore, even though I'm still reading a lot in the holy books. I can still absorb some import lessons. 

"Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened." 

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+5-7&version=NIV

Edited December 9, 2018 by Sosso

[DieselDaisy]

12 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Its makes fuckin' sense though, morally fuckin' ugly though it is when you're facing the fuckin' chop I'd imagine more than a few people would send their own up the river.  On the topic of ugliness in WW2 and the fucked up people is brought out, check this fucker out, I cant believe this man existed:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oskar_Dirlewanger

Ahh, Dirlewanger, The Dirlewanger Brigade.

You know how some people are interested in serial killers and gangsters? I have an encyclopedic knowledge of fucked up Nazis.  

8 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Because you probably hate Jews for being Jewish and being like...the cause of all this shit, even though you are Jewish.  And envoirnment plays a big part too, I mean if anti-semitism is literally EVERYWHERE, its hard not get caught up in it to some degree.  Envoirnment is so powerful, it can have you believing all sorts of things, like black people back in the day, a great many actually believed they were inferior, some argue that even today a lot of black people are kinda prey to these forms of thinking.  Also if its gonna get you on the commandants good side, i.e. you get free booze and prossies, I can imagine a few thinking why not stick the boot in, its happening all around you anyway, not like you can save them from this immense machinery.  

I think the human race meets a psychopath halfway and we all have a lot of psychopathic or unempathetic or animalistic traits that have been suppressed by circumstances.

Antisemitism was so omnipresent. Have a look at this, Juden Raus! (1936), a family board game,

Quote

Players take turns rolling the dice and moving their "Jews" across the map toward "collection points" outside the city walls for deportation to Mandatory Palestine.[7] Written on the game board, it says "If you manage to see off 6 Jews, you’ve won a clear victory!

 

[arnold layne]

Fucking Hell.

[Len Cnut]

5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Ahh, Dirlewanger, The Dirlewanger Brigade.

You know how some people are interested in serial killers and gangsters? I have an encyclopedic knowledge of fucked up Nazis.  

Antisemitism was so omnipresent. Have a look at this, Juden Raus! (1936), a family board game,

 

Even in Europe prior to that, a lot of people think it just appeared because of Nazis but thats kinda why the German people swallowed so much of it so readily, cuz it was kinda already there to a point.

I remember reading this essay thing by Wagner saying that the best thing that the Jew could do for the human race is to go out to the town square and set himself on fire.  

So...what other fucked up nazis are there?   

[Sosso]

Europe has a long tradition of antisemitism, which goes back to the 1400's/1500's. Martin Luther, who translated the Bible into German, was the writer of anti-jewish essays. 

Edited December 9, 2018 by Sosso

[arnold layne]

Somebody enlighten me.

Why do people hate Jews again? Is it because they don't believe Jesus was the Messiah? If so why not hate Atheists as well?

[Lio]

I think it was everywhere in Europe, and the US too. Jews seem to be a very hated people throughout history.

Christians used to hate Jews because they were told that Jews murdered Christ. The church omitted that Jesus was in fact a Jew.

[arnold layne]

1 minute ago, Lio said:

I think it was everywhere in Europe, and the US too. Jews seem to be a very hated people throughout history.

Christians used to hate Jews because they were told that Jews murdered Christ. The church omitted that Jesus was in fact a Jew.

Yeah but didn't the Romans kill Jesus?

[Sosso]

6 minutes ago, arnold layne said:

Somebody enlighten me.

Why do people hate Jews again? Is it because they don't believe Jesus was the Messiah? If so why not hate Atheists as well?

"The main causes of anti-Semitism in Europe go back a very long way.

There seems to have been a widespread European suspicion that Jews somehow
retained too much racial autonomy, cultural identity and an unwelcome
degree of disconnection from the host societies they joined. This autonomy
revolved about their religious otherness, their social clannishness, their
strong cultural richness and their frequent rise to eminence or economic
success. Resentment against these factors underscored their seeming
failure to dilute away their identity as Jews and a corresponding failure
to integrate sufficiently into becoming non-Jew Europeans. This
‘marginality’ restrained their greater integration and gave them an
ambivalence and a disconnectedness from European cultures. It was also
suggestive of a lack of interest on Jews’ part of ever becoming more truly
integrated Europeans. They often therefore appeared aloof and arrogant.

By failing sufficiently to lose their identity as Jews, and retaining
the ‘otherness’ alluded to above, this demarcated them from other members
of their host societies. An important reason for this is their rich
cultural heritage, their intelligence, their artistic and musical
abilities; their apparent classlessness, or middle-class-ness and their
long-established nomadic nature. Such features combined with their dream
of returning to their homeland; this deep yearning of a mythical future in
Zion, some future peaceful Jewish state; and a belief in a future Messiah,
or saviour of their race. These amounted to exclusive aspects of
Jewishness that conspired against them being seen as anything other than
Jews, and not as integrated Europeans.

The resentment, therefore, against Jews, arose because they were
blatantly non-Christians in a Christian Europe; in Europe but not of it;
footloose; cultured but cultureless – a host of such factors about their
identity as Jews cast doubt on the credibility of any claim they might
make to become more fully absorbed into mainstream European culture.
Though this resentment, this ‘proto-anti-Semitism’, came from Europeans
themselves, it was, from their perspective, a valid concern, a natural
reaction against the Jews’ failure to become more socially absorbed, more
Europeanised. Thus, responsibility for this response was deemed by
Europeans to rest solely with the Jews themselves and not with the Europe
into which they had wandered. Therefore, Europeans regarded the Jews as a
people who had made outcasts of themselves by their own behaviour, by
their social deviance, and by their insistence in retaining such strong
cultural independence and social distance from Europeans."

https://www.bmj.com/rapid-response/2011/10/29/causes-anti-semitism

Edited December 9, 2018 by Sosso

[soon]

Anti-semitism is recorded in the Old Testament. Enslavement in Egypt. Exile to Babylon, all that. Thousands of years before Christ.

Anti-semitism is present in the narrative that Christ was born as a jewish person under occupation by Rome. Then Rome executed the Christ.