downzy Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 58 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: ....there's certainly a few in this video...as well as celebrities, actors, musicians, etc.... Not one Democratic candidate or politician calling for violence. Not having an abortion debate in this thread. Not the point of this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 2 hours ago, downzy said: They were never a Democrat/liberal or know nothing about what liberalism stands for. He's ascribing actions of a few to liberalism as a whole when that's not what liberalism is about. 20th century liberalism isn't college campus nonsense that calls for censorship of distasteful or different opinions. It's not democratic socialism as preached by Bernie Sanders and left-wing progressives. Liberalism isn't a tribe. It isn't the vocal minority. I have no idea who this guy is but he certainly seems interested in talking about himself in a manner that's, well, sensational and self-aggrandizing. He'd be better off making a video calling out those co-opting the liberal brand for their own nefarious ambitions. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 22 minutes ago, downzy said: Not one Democratic candidate or politician calling for violence. lol...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that Tim Kaine's comments didn't literally mean to go out and "fight"..but he did say it and who knows how some people took it. Maxine Waters has called for her supporters to harass Trump supporters/cabinet members....which could easily result in violence. Her exact quote: “If you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd and you push back on them! And you tell them that they are not welcome, anymore, anywhere.” That certainly doesn't sound "peaceful". And here's one that you can't deny no matter how you try to spin it.... ‘I hope Trump is assassinated’: A Missouri lawmaker faces mounting calls to resign after Facebook comment https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/08/18/i-hope-trump-is-assassinated-a-missouri-lawmakers-facebook-comment-leads-to-calls-for-her-resignation/?utm_term=.33ebc4847f39 Edited July 16, 2018 by Kasanova King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 18 minutes ago, downzy said: He's ascribing actions of a few to liberalism as a whole when that's not what liberalism is about. 20th century liberalism isn't college campus nonsense that calls for censorship of distasteful or different opinions. It's not democratic socialism as preached by Bernie Sanders and left-wing progressives. Liberalism isn't a tribe. It isn't the vocal minority. I have no idea who this guy is but he certainly seems interested in talking about himself in a manner that's, well, sensational and self-aggrandizing. He'd be better off making a video calling out those co-opting the liberal brand for their own nefarious ambitions. Do you think the current Democratic party...the same party who has seemingly embraced even the far left/radicals (at the very least, they don't rebuke them), is made up of the same belief system of 20th century liberalism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 10 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: lol...I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that Tim Kaine's comments didn't literally mean to go out and "fight"..but he did say it and who knows how some people took it. Maxine Waters has called for her supporters to harass Trump supporters/cabinet members....which could easily result in violence. Her exact quote: “If you see anybody from that Cabinet in a restaurant, in a department store, at a gasoline station, you get out and you create a crowd and you push back on them! And you tell them that they are not welcome, anymore, anywhere.” That certainly doesn't sound "peaceful". And here's one that you can't deny no matter how you try to spin it.... ‘I hope Trump is assassinated’: A Missouri lawmaker faces mounting calls to resign after Facebook comment https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-fix/wp/2017/08/18/i-hope-trump-is-assassinated-a-missouri-lawmakers-facebook-comment-leads-to-calls-for-her-resignation/?utm_term=.33ebc4847f39 Taking it too the streets, as I've always understood it, meant calling on people to get off their asses and protest. Maxine Waters is a bit nutty, but she never calls for violence, just confrontation. Let bit of a difference than what you're inferring here. And Maria Chapelle-Nadal was both removed from committee, called to step down, and was eventually censured by the Missouri Senate. So I will stand corrected, but let's not suggest she was given a pass for her remarks. The response was universal in its criticism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: Do you think the current Democratic party...the same party who has seemingly embraced even the far left/radicals (at the very least, they don't rebuke them), is made up of the same belief system of 20th century liberalism? How has the Democratic Party embraced the far left? Granted, I think some of the policy ideas getting thrown around out there are kind of nutty. The calls to abolish ICE is not only dumb policy but dumb politics. But on the whole, when talking about the basic tenants of liberalism, I don't see a seismic shift between the Democratic party now and Democratic Party of Roosevelt, Kennedy, Johnson, Clinton and Obama. That could change should the Bernie Sanders wing gain the upper hand. I think Trump isn't helping in this respect, as his presence in American politics is pushing members of both parties to extremes (and when I say extremes, I'm talking in relatives. The Democratic party is still to the right of most conservative parties in every other developed western nation). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, downzy said: How has the Democratic Party embraced the far left? Granted, I think some of the policy ideas getting thrown around out there are kind of nutty. The calls to abolish ICE is not only dumb policy but dumb politics. But on the whole, when talking about the basic tenants of liberalism, I don't see a seismic shift between the Democratic party now and Democratic Party of Roosevelt, Kennedy, Johnson, Clinton and Obama. That could change should the Bernie Sanders wing gain the upper hand. I think Trump isn't helping in this respect, as his presence in American politics is pushing members of both parties to extremes (and when I say extremes, I'm talking in relatives. The Democratic party is still to the right of most conservative parties in every other developed western nation). Other than the U.S., I only pay attention to Italy's politics...and the U.S. Democratic party certainly is not to the right of Italy's most conservative parties (Lega, Berlusconi)... https://www.politicalcompass.org/italy2018 But I do agree that the Democratic party is not doing themselves any favors by listening to calls to abolish ICE... Democrats have recently gone as far as introducing a bill in Congress to abolish ICE.... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/07/12/democrats-introduce-abolish-ice-bill/780906002/ Edited July 16, 2018 by Kasanova King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 6 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: Other than the U.S., I only pay attention to Italy's politics...and the U.S. Democratic party certainly is not to the right of Italy's most conservative parties (Lega, Berlusconi)... https://www.politicalcompass.org/italy2018 Some of those parties are fringe parties that don't play a factor in policy or forming governments. Others are strictly populist parties. That said, most of Europe's more established and relevant right-wing political parties do not defend capitalism as Democrats do, would not replace the government run healthcare system with whatever the Democrats are proposing (single-payer, strengthened ACA, etc.), and would likely want more government involvement in the national economy than what most Democrats would feel comfortable with. Quote But I do agree that the Democratic party is not doing themselves any favors by listening to calls to abolish ICE... Democrats have recently gone as far as introducing a bill in Congress to abolish ICE.... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/07/12/democrats-introduce-abolish-ice-bill/780906002/ A few Democrats have introduced that bill; most Democrats don't want to vote on it. That said, Republicans will likely make them vote on it. Kind of ironic that the only immigration bill Republicans will allow to come to the House floor is one that they're using for political purposes. It's a nice way to back Democrats into a corner with their more fervent base on the issue of immigration. It's not a policy that most responsible Democrats will put their arms around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 8 hours ago, downzy said: Some of those parties are fringe parties that don't play a factor in policy or forming governments. Others are strictly populist parties. That said, most of Europe's more established and relevant right-wing political parties do not defend capitalism as Democrats do, would not replace the government run healthcare system with whatever the Democrats are proposing (single-payer, strengthened ACA, etc.), and would likely want more government involvement in the national economy than what most Democrats would feel comfortable with. A few Democrats have introduced that bill; most Democrats don't want to vote on it. That said, Republicans will likely make them vote on it. Kind of ironic that the only immigration bill Republicans will allow to come to the House floor is one that they're using for political purposes. It's a nice way to back Democrats into a corner with their more fervent base on the issue of immigration. It's not a policy that most responsible Democrats will put their arms around. Err...Lega won the Italian election and setup a government with the 5 Star Party...lol. But anyway, in other news, I was wondering where I stood currently in terms of "politcal compass"...and just as I figured...I'm pretty close to center..... Economic Left/Right: -0.38 Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: 0.26 Edited July 16, 2018 by Kasanova King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Glow Inc. Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 I lean more left than right but I found myself adopting more and more conservative views lately exactly for the reasons quoted in that video as they slowly creep their way in the political life of my country. I am an egalitarian but I value free speech more than anybody's feelings. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 9 hours ago, downzy said: I've read the entire Bible, the new Testament twice. I'm well versed in Catholicism and several other Judeochristian sects, but view it as a crux used by those unwilling or unable to think for themselves. The view you express here represents a complete misunderstanding on your part. It is a statement that could be applied just as blindly to so many things. Like if someone is firmly situated in a political stand point that is heavily rooted in a specific and well studied tendency, for instance. But of course it would not be accurate in that scenario either. Identifying with something that is well established is a far cry from not thinking for ones self. Even just identifying with the cultural norms and laws of the land cold be described as not thinking for ones self. And we live in a secular hegemony. Hegemony is partially identifiable by a set of rooted assumptions. Having a Fatih in the context of a secular hegemony points towards someone who thinks for themselves. Being secular in a secular hegemony points to simply taking on the rooted assumptions of secularism. Edited July 16, 2018 by soon 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) Why was my post deleted??? You can't handle the TRUTH??? #censorship Edited July 16, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChristmasFnatic Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 A lot of savagery in this thread. Damn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downzy Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 1 hour ago, Iron MikeyJ said: Why was my post deleted??? You can't handle the TRUTH??? #censorship We're not turning this thread into another debate on abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, downzy said: We're not turning this thread into another debate on abortion. It's relevant to the discussion, so I stand by my previous post. Liberals fight for the rights of ONLY those they deem worthy. They preach equality and fair treatment, yet unborn HUMANS are deemed less than. #hypocrites 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 8 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: It's relevant to the discussion, so I stand by my previous post. Liberals fight for the rights of ONLY those they deem worthy. They preach equality and fair treatment, yet unborn HUMANS are deemed less than. #hypocrites Liberals ain't the only pro choice y'know. And unborn humans are less than human by definition, they ain't fully human until they are born. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 3 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: Liberals ain't the only pro choice y'know. And unborn humans are less than human by definition, they ain't fully human until they are born. Not true. They are HUMAN DNA. They are just in an earlier stage of development. They are not some different being All together. A caterpillar and a butterfly are still the same organism, just in different stages of development. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: Not true. They are HUMAN DNA. They are just in an earlier stage of development. They are not some different being All together. A caterpillar and a butterfly are still the same organism, just in different stages of development. So human DNA is equivalent to a person? There’s human DNA in a pube isn’t there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 22 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: Liberals ain't the only pro choice y'know. And unborn humans are less than human by definition, they ain't fully human until they are born. Why can you be charged and convicted of first degree murder of an unborn baby then? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 15 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: So human DNA is equivalent to a person? There’s human DNA in a pube isn’t there? It's not A person, but DNA from a person. You can try and spin this anyway you like, but it doesn't change the facts that unborn children are indeed human. We live in a society that have decided that the needs and rights of the mother's are MORE important than the needs and rights of these unborn children. This issue it goes against everything liberals preach. They fight for the rights of women, minorities, homosexuals, transgender, etc. But the rights of this group (unborn children) are deemed unworthy. So it's NOT a stance for equality for all, but instead equality for those that will support our cause. Which ok, that's fine. But it's time for them to be honest about it. They hide behind these social/civil rights stances, yet proceed to fight for the right for certain individuals (these mothers) to engage in the murder of another human being (the unborn children). It's the biggest case of hypocrisy that I see in our world today. Again, i am by no means conservative either. I am a true INDEPENDENT voter. I could go on and on about the problems I have with conservatives as well. Just recently Donald Trump appointed a new member to the supreme court. All I heard on the national media was about the stance and effect this judge could have on abortion. It was the liberals #1 concern. It just proves the hypocrisy, that the rights of women are deemed MORE important than the rights of these unborn children. I can't think of another example more egregious. Edited July 16, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 9 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: Why can you be charged and convicted of first degree murder of an unborn baby then? Its a contentious law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: Its a contentious law. Which is supported by both Liberals and Conservatives. It's the single biggest hypocricy in relation to the abortion debate and I have yet to hear a logical explanation from a liberal as to why they have historically supported it. Edited July 16, 2018 by Kasanova King Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 Quote It's not A person, but DNA from a person Right? Quote You can try and spin this anyway you like, but it doesn't change the facts that unborn children are indeed human. WHat possible interest would I have in spinning shit, its not like I own a string of abortion clinics here. Quote This issue is goes against everything liberals preach. They fight for the rights of women, minorities, homosexuals, transgender, etc. But the rights of this group (unborn children) are deemed unworthy. It crosses over pretty neatly with the rights of women, does it not? Quote It's the biggest case of hypocrisy that I see in our world today. Look harder. Quote It just proves the hypocrisy, that the rights of women are deemed MORE important than the rights of these unborn children. I can't think of another example more egregious. Whereas your stance is that the rights of the unborn should supercede those of the already living...and thats logical is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 7 minutes ago, Kasanova King said: Which is supported by both Liberals and Conservatives. It's the single biggest hypocracy in relation to the abortion debate and I have yet to hear a logical explanation from a liberal as to why they have historically supported it. Well I can't answer for the American voters but as I said it remains a contentious issue. The inclinations of liberals or conservatives as an American would understand the term is not really my field of expertise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wasted Posted July 16, 2018 Share Posted July 16, 2018 The impression I get is the Dems have taken liberalism and taken it to an authoritarian point. So people feel like they are being forced to submit to tolerance. And I call that Leftist, to distinguish that from my wishy washy liberal ideas of irresponsibility and crack addiction. I had this experience with people shouting at me about China’s freedom of speech violations. I was saying, well I didn’t say I just shrugged and downed a bottle of wine, that those people are seen as terrorists in china, pro democracy activists are seen to be disturbing the success of bringing billions of people out of poverty. Plus the idea that democracy isn’t something they ever embraced in a 4000 year history. On a deeper level the two party system exposes corruption and almost is a tool of control. Mostly from their perpective. The idea that both ways could work to some degree and that chance is the defining characteristic of life is never considered. I guess because tribalism is the engine of business interests. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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