Dear Fermanager,: A Retrospective

[Słash]

I even had my posts moved from the thread earlier for cluttering. Downzy is off my Christmas list now!

Don't Worry Alfie, you are my friend, Downzy prefers Russ over everyone

[downzy]

No. C'mon now.

Others were also deleted under the grounds that it was beyond the scope of casual talk.

Speaking of which, what is the purpose of moderating what people ask when it doesn't break the rules?

Nope, again not true. Nothing was removed because it was beyond the scope of casual talk. We moved comments by those who took issue with how we were moderating the thread (even though we provided numerous explanations as to why). We removed your question about what kind of vegetable Fernando would be because it was ridiculous. And we removed posts written in another language that was extremely insulting towards Fernando.

I realize it's somewhat unfair to ask this (considering you can't see them), but what posts specifically are you talking about that we removed that you felt should have been left alone? Russ and I have provided a summary of what was removed and none of it gels with what you're saying.

[Padme]

I think we need to go back to the begining. Fernando looked into this thread (not his official discussion thread) Then he posted "train of hatred" Is he expecting congratulations after such a comment?

Mods claim we don´t have the right to bash him but he has the right to insult us? I was pissed off and so were other people like magisme. We reacted in diferent ways. I guess because we have diffent personalities and different ways to express how we feel.

First of all that comment by Fernando is bullshit. Nobody here hates Axl nor him. Second he is just like Axl. They want us to be yes man and say everything Axl does is perfect and wonderful when that´s not the case at all!

Sorry but it is Fernando the one showing intolerance, inmaturity and arrogance. I think Fernando should apologise for the comment if he wants us to show him good maners and respect

Saying "train of hatred" isn't necessarily bashing. It's getting something wrong, but it doesn't serve any basis to launch a barrage of insults back. Some people were able to challenge his post appropriately. Others were not. It's fine to say we all act in different ways, but your own personal behavioural standards aren't want we base the rules on here. Nobody on staff is saying Fernando's comment wasn't bullshit. What we are saying is that there's a right way and a wrong way in responding to it. Telling him off and including a personal dig is the wrong way. Challenging him on the merits of the conversation is the right way.

Well please also tell him there is a right way and a wrong way to express his feelings and his thoughts.

Well, it was right for him. It was wrong for many of us. We can disagree about his assessment all day long so long as we're not telling each other off. And many people did express your sentiments but in a very constructive manner. There's no harm in that.

Not it wasn´t!!! If he wants respect he has to earn it. Besides if he was complaning about something in THIS thread then he should´ve addressed it here and not else where.

So please tell him that he is not above the law. And if he doesn´t want us to argue with him and fight him then he must also talk to us in a respectful way. He can disagree with our opinions but it is not right from his part to call us haters or something similar. This is a two way street.

[Słash]

Why would you ask what kind of a Vegetable Fernando would be LOL, Russ you would have to agree that this question was more ridiculous than mine.

[Apollo]

I think we need to go back to the begining. Fernando looked into this thread (not his official discussion thread) Then he posted "train of hatred" Is he expecting congratulations after such a comment?

Mods claim we don´t have the right to bash him but he has the right to insult us? I was pissed off and so were other people like magisme. We reacted in diferent ways. I guess because we have diffent personalities and different ways to express how we feel.

First of all that comment by Fernando is bullshit. Nobody here hates Axl nor him. Second he is just like Axl. They want us to be yes man and say everything Axl does is perfect and wonderful when that´s not the case at all!

Sorry but it is Fernando the one showing intolerance, inmaturity and arrogance. I think Fernando should apologise for the comment if he wants us to show him good maners and respect

Saying "train of hatred" isn't necessarily bashing. It's getting something wrong, but it doesn't serve any basis to launch a barrage of insults back. Some people were able to challenge his post appropriately. Others were not. It's fine to say we all act in different ways, but your own personal behavioural standards aren't want we base the rules on here. Nobody on staff is saying Fernando's comment wasn't bullshit. What we are saying is that there's a right way and a wrong way in responding to it. Telling him off and including a personal dig is the wrong way. Challenging him on the merits of the conversation is the right way.

Well please also tell him there is a right way and a wrong way to express his feelings and his thoughts.

That is a very good point.

Fernando (and the GnR camp) can make a comment that is just a general or sweeping statement - calling fans racists, telling people to fuck off, saying the hate train. But then people respond to the comment, they are responding to a SPECIFIC person.

Fernando can say there is racism on this forum, as long as he doesn't specifically call one person a racist.

An insult is an insult, regardless if you are directing it towards one person or a group of people.

So maybe the Mods look at those comments differently. Which, imo, they shouldn't.

And to be fair, I know it must be hell to moderate a forum with this many people. I don't envy any of the mods and think they do as good of a job as anybody could.

Again, repeating myself. But maybe Fernando's "position" should have been identified before he started posting.

Was he here as an official representative of GnR's management team? If he was, then he should have answered more questions about the band.

But if he would have came on and said I'm not here in an official capacity, I'm just here as somebody who works with Axl and is his pretend son, so I'll answer general questions about the band, but I'm not giving you any specific band related details.

That would have set the stage right off the bat and let people know what kind of questions he would be answering.

[TheSeeker]

If you want to accuse us of controlling the narrative, that's fine. Because I certainly don't want any part of a narrative that's reinforced by vulgarity and overt hostility.

So you don't want any part of Axl's narrative regarding the past 20 years of Guns N' Roses.

Because that is certainly reinforced by vulgarity and hostility.

[downzy]

Why would you ask what kind of a Vegetable Fernando would be LOL, Russ you would have to agree that this question was more ridiculous than mine.

Yeah Russ, why can't the poor guy know what kind of breakfast Fernando had?

[Rustycage]

No. C'mon now.

Others were also deleted under the grounds that it was beyond the scope of casual talk.

Speaking of which, what is the purpose of moderating what people ask when it doesn't break the rules?

Again, this isn't about today or even about him. You claimed that no one is controlling or controlled the narrative and that is completely untrue.

What is it that you think should be said that you or others are prevented from being able to say?

Anything within the rules without bending them to suit a certain agenda? Maybe each topic can just have separate rules now so all bases can be covered.

The reason you guys were having to be so active in that topic is because of the inconsistent moderation and direction of the topic. It was all over the place about what can and can't be asked/stated. Now that Fernando has gone away again, the rules have relaxed. Just admit it. You guys were trying to pad the topic for him. That's all. I don't think the intent is to turn into HTGTH. I don't think it's malicious towards the users. I think that the intent was to pad the topic for him with the hopes he would stick around and return in the future with something more. Though the end result is disrespect towards the members here especially when posters see moderation of normal users' posts that are within the rules while someone of Fernando's position is allowed to insult posters and incite more negativity(like he did throughout the original topic, this one and the 2-4 months topic, as well.)

[downzy]

I think we need to go back to the begining. Fernando looked into this thread (not his official discussion thread) Then he posted "train of hatred" Is he expecting congratulations after such a comment?

Mods claim we don´t have the right to bash him but he has the right to insult us? I was pissed off and so were other people like magisme. We reacted in diferent ways. I guess because we have diffent personalities and different ways to express how we feel.

First of all that comment by Fernando is bullshit. Nobody here hates Axl nor him. Second he is just like Axl. They want us to be yes man and say everything Axl does is perfect and wonderful when that´s not the case at all!

Sorry but it is Fernando the one showing intolerance, inmaturity and arrogance. I think Fernando should apologise for the comment if he wants us to show him good maners and respect

Saying "train of hatred" isn't necessarily bashing. It's getting something wrong, but it doesn't serve any basis to launch a barrage of insults back. Some people were able to challenge his post appropriately. Others were not. It's fine to say we all act in different ways, but your own personal behavioural standards aren't want we base the rules on here. Nobody on staff is saying Fernando's comment wasn't bullshit. What we are saying is that there's a right way and a wrong way in responding to it. Telling him off and including a personal dig is the wrong way. Challenging him on the merits of the conversation is the right way.

Well please also tell him there is a right way and a wrong way to express his feelings and his thoughts.

That is a very good point.

Fernando (and the GnR camp) can make a comment that is just a general or sweeping statement - calling fans racists, telling people to fuck off, saying the hate train. But then people respond to the comment, they are responding to a SPECIFIC person.

Fernando can say there is racism on this forum, as long as he doesn't specifically call one person a racist.

An insult is an insult, regardless if you are directing it towards one person or a group of people.

So maybe the Mods look at those comments differently. Which, imo, they shouldn't.

And to be fair, I know it must be hell to moderate a forum with this many people. I don't envy any of the mods and think they do as good of a job as anybody could.

Again, repeating myself. But maybe Fernando's "position" should have been identified before he started posting.

Was he here as an official representative of GnR's management team? If he was, then he should have answered more questions about the band.

But if he would have came on and said I'm not here in an official capacity, I'm just here as somebody who works with Axl and is his pretend son, so I'll answer general questions about the band, but I'm not giving you any specific band related details.

That would have set the stage right off the bat and let people know what kind of questions he would be answering.

For fucks sake Apollo, we've been over this numerous times. I stressed that in all likelihood he meant discrimination, not racism. Again, english isn't Fernando's first language so understand if he uses the wrong word in certain contexts.

And he didn't tell anyone to fuck off in his conversation a few days ago. Someone who controls GNR's Facebook did and it's not even certain that it was directed towards the fanbase. But let's assume that Fernando did and he meant it towards the fans. It was how long ago? Does that mean everyone gets a swipe at him if and when he posts here? Here's a better idea; if you're that outraged about Fernando potentially telling fans to go fuck themselves on Facebook, why not respond on Facebook? But again, you're making assumptions on matters and pretending that they're facts.

I don't get why you liked my post that addressed many of the points you previously raised and then raise them again. Once again, it was made known at Fernando's presence here was informal at best. That the conversation was meant to be casual and not meant to serve as a true Q&A. He never stated this explicitly, but the point was made for him by myself and many other members.

This point was reiterated numerous times through the thread. You couldn't miss it.

[Rustycage]

No. C'mon now.

Others were also deleted under the grounds that it was beyond the scope of casual talk.

Speaking of which, what is the purpose of moderating what people ask when it doesn't break the rules?

Nope, again not true. Nothing was removed because it was beyond the scope of casual talk. We moved comments by those who took issue with how we were moderating the thread (even though we provided numerous explanations as to why). We removed your question about what kind of vegetable Fernando would be because it was ridiculous. And we removed posts written in another language that was extremely insulting towards Fernando.

I realize it's somewhat unfair to ask this (considering you can't see them), but what posts specifically are you talking about that we removed that you felt should have been left alone? Russ and I have provided a summary of what was removed and none of it gels with what you're saying.

If your position is that it didn't happen. You're just lying or are unaware.

Regarding my post: The reason why I asked that question was because I posted in that topic how the whole thing appeared as though Fernando's actions and responses were just a carrot(vegetable) on a stick.(Which was also removed). As a result, I kept it casual and not relative towards the band. I'm cool with that, though. I'm hip to that here so it's whatever. Attempts to joke around are seen as an attack so fuck it.

My point is about all of the other posts that were also hit with the button.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Rustycage

[downzy]

If you want to accuse us of controlling the narrative, that's fine. Because I certainly don't want any part of a narrative that's reinforced by vulgarity and overt hostility.

So you don't want any part of Axl's narrative regarding the past 20 years of Guns N' Roses.

Because that is certainly reinforced by vulgarity and hostility.

Those are two different matters. How Axl conducts his state of affairs are his business. How this forum operates and facilitates conversation is the business of the staff and those who participate.

No. C'mon now.

Others were also deleted under the grounds that it was beyond the scope of casual talk.

Speaking of which, what is the purpose of moderating what people ask when it doesn't break the rules?

Nope, again not true. Nothing was removed because it was beyond the scope of casual talk. We moved comments by those who took issue with how we were moderating the thread (even though we provided numerous explanations as to why). We removed your question about what kind of vegetable Fernando would be because it was ridiculous. And we removed posts written in another language that was extremely insulting towards Fernando.

I realize it's somewhat unfair to ask this (considering you can't see them), but what posts specifically are you talking about that we removed that you felt should have been left alone? Russ and I have provided a summary of what was removed and none of it gels with what you're saying.

If your position is that it didn't happen. You're just lying or are unaware.

You keep stating this without any actual proof.

[Rustycage]

If you want to accuse us of controlling the narrative, that's fine. Because I certainly don't want any part of a narrative that's reinforced by vulgarity and overt hostility.

So you don't want any part of Axl's narrative regarding the past 20 years of Guns N' Roses.

Because that is certainly reinforced by vulgarity and hostility.

Those are two different matters. How Axl conducts his state of affairs are his business. How this forum operates and facilitates conversation is the business of the staff and those who participate.

No. C'mon now.

Others were also deleted under the grounds that it was beyond the scope of casual talk.

Speaking of which, what is the purpose of moderating what people ask when it doesn't break the rules?

Nope, again not true. Nothing was removed because it was beyond the scope of casual talk. We moved comments by those who took issue with how we were moderating the thread (even though we provided numerous explanations as to why). We removed your question about what kind of vegetable Fernando would be because it was ridiculous. And we removed posts written in another language that was extremely insulting towards Fernando.

I realize it's somewhat unfair to ask this (considering you can't see them), but what posts specifically are you talking about that we removed that you felt should have been left alone? Russ and I have provided a summary of what was removed and none of it gels with what you're saying.

If your position is that it didn't happen. You're just lying or are unaware.

You keep stating this without any actual proof.

I can't see hidden and deleted posts. Dur

If I could link them, I would.

[RussTCB]

No. C'mon now.

Others were also deleted under the grounds that it was beyond the scope of casual talk.

Speaking of which, what is the purpose of moderating what people ask when it doesn't break the rules?

Nope, again not true. Nothing was removed because it was beyond the scope of casual talk. We moved comments by those who took issue with how we were moderating the thread (even though we provided numerous explanations as to why). We removed your question about what kind of vegetable Fernando would be because it was ridiculous. And we removed posts written in another language that was extremely insulting towards Fernando.

I realize it's somewhat unfair to ask this (considering you can't see them), but what posts specifically are you talking about that we removed that you felt should have been left alone? Russ and I have provided a summary of what was removed and none of it gels with what you're saying.

If your position is that it didn't happen. You're just lying or are unaware.

Regarding my post: The reason why I asked that question was because I posted in that topic how the whole thing appeared as though Fernando's actions and responses were just a carrot(vegetable) on a stick.(Which was also removed). As a result, I kept it casual and not relative towards the band. I'm cool with that, though. I'm hip to that here so it's whatever. Attempts to joke around are seen as an attack so fuck it.

My point is about all of the other posts that were also hit with the button.

No one is lying because it didn't happen.

Here again is the summary I posted earlier of exactly what was removed/hidden:

"I'm going through the original thread right now and I had to get to Page 3 before I found even one post that was removed. The post was a user insulting another user for no reason whatsoever and had nothing to do with GN'R. The next post that were removed are 2 pages later, which was one telling Fernando to get the fuck out of here. The next thing removed after that was on Page 9 where a user was insulting another user for no reason. The next posts removed after that are 3 on Page 11 where 2 users were insulting each other one user was insulting everyone posting in the thread. Page 12 has one removed post where someone was again insulting everyone posting in the thread. Page 13 has one removed post asking Fernando what he had for breakfast. Page 14 has one post removed from a user telling Fernando there's no need for him to be here. Pag 16 has one silly/off topic post removed.

So there's the first 20 pages of a 55 page thread, of which a grand total of 10 posts were removed/hidden, 7 of which were users insulting each other or everyone posting in the thread, 3 of which were silly/off topic. Everything else that was posted in those first 20 pages in in-tact, as posted."

[downzy]

If you want to accuse us of controlling the narrative, that's fine. Because I certainly don't want any part of a narrative that's reinforced by vulgarity and overt hostility.

So you don't want any part of Axl's narrative regarding the past 20 years of Guns N' Roses.

Because that is certainly reinforced by vulgarity and hostility.

Those are two different matters. How Axl conducts his state of affairs are his business. How this forum operates and facilitates conversation is the business of the staff and those who participate.

No. C'mon now.

Others were also deleted under the grounds that it was beyond the scope of casual talk.

Speaking of which, what is the purpose of moderating what people ask when it doesn't break the rules?

Nope, again not true. Nothing was removed because it was beyond the scope of casual talk. We moved comments by those who took issue with how we were moderating the thread (even though we provided numerous explanations as to why). We removed your question about what kind of vegetable Fernando would be because it was ridiculous. And we removed posts written in another language that was extremely insulting towards Fernando.

I realize it's somewhat unfair to ask this (considering you can't see them), but what posts specifically are you talking about that we removed that you felt should have been left alone? Russ and I have provided a summary of what was removed and none of it gels with what you're saying.

If your position is that it didn't happen. You're just lying or are unaware.

You keep stating this without any actual proof.

I can't see hidden and deleted posts. Dur

If I could link them, I would.

Right, so even though Russ and I provided you a summary of posts that were removed, you still believe that we're lying about it.

[Rustycage]

Yeah, guys. It's not like there's a group of people saying you were over the top or anything.

[Słash]

I guess after seeing this thread, there are less chances of him returning. But yeah we should act civil towards with each other, using abusive language will just create negativity.

It won't matter that much if he will return or not, life moves on, IF something has to happen, then it will happen.

I know the frustration of the fans, all I can say is that just don't see him as a Manager of GNR, just see him as some random guy who just knows stuff which he won't tell, I guess all we can get from him some interesting facts about the CD tour which is happening since 2001, maybe about some past shows, about bucket or Robin and things like that.

[Rustycage]

If you want to accuse us of controlling the narrative, that's fine. Because I certainly don't want any part of a narrative that's reinforced by vulgarity and overt hostility.

So you don't want any part of Axl's narrative regarding the past 20 years of Guns N' Roses.

Because that is certainly reinforced by vulgarity and hostility.

Those are two different matters. How Axl conducts his state of affairs are his business. How this forum operates and facilitates conversation is the business of the staff and those who participate.

No. C'mon now.

Others were also deleted under the grounds that it was beyond the scope of casual talk.

Speaking of which, what is the purpose of moderating what people ask when it doesn't break the rules?

Nope, again not true. Nothing was removed because it was beyond the scope of casual talk. We moved comments by those who took issue with how we were moderating the thread (even though we provided numerous explanations as to why). We removed your question about what kind of vegetable Fernando would be because it was ridiculous. And we removed posts written in another language that was extremely insulting towards Fernando.

I realize it's somewhat unfair to ask this (considering you can't see them), but what posts specifically are you talking about that we removed that you felt should have been left alone? Russ and I have provided a summary of what was removed and none of it gels with what you're saying.

If your position is that it didn't happen. You're just lying or are unaware.

You keep stating this without any actual proof.

I can't see hidden and deleted posts. Dur

If I could link them, I would.

Right, so even though Russ and I provided you a summary of posts that were removed, you still believe that we're lying about it.

I don't need to appeal to authority when I was watching the topic and watching replies disappear.

I didn't say you personally were lying. One of you were trigger happy. That is for sure.

[RussTCB]

Yeah, guys. It's not like there's a group of people saying you were over the top or anything.

You were given a point by point list (twice) of exactly what was removed.

10 posts in 20 pages, the great majority of which was users insulting other users.

[downzy]

If you want to accuse us of controlling the narrative, that's fine. Because I certainly don't want any part of a narrative that's reinforced by vulgarity and overt hostility.

So you don't want any part of Axl's narrative regarding the past 20 years of Guns N' Roses.

Because that is certainly reinforced by vulgarity and hostility.

Those are two different matters. How Axl conducts his state of affairs are his business. How this forum operates and facilitates conversation is the business of the staff and those who participate.

No. C'mon now.

Others were also deleted under the grounds that it was beyond the scope of casual talk.

Speaking of which, what is the purpose of moderating what people ask when it doesn't break the rules?

Nope, again not true. Nothing was removed because it was beyond the scope of casual talk. We moved comments by those who took issue with how we were moderating the thread (even though we provided numerous explanations as to why). We removed your question about what kind of vegetable Fernando would be because it was ridiculous. And we removed posts written in another language that was extremely insulting towards Fernando.

I realize it's somewhat unfair to ask this (considering you can't see them), but what posts specifically are you talking about that we removed that you felt should have been left alone? Russ and I have provided a summary of what was removed and none of it gels with what you're saying.

If your position is that it didn't happen. You're just lying or are unaware.

You keep stating this without any actual proof.

I can't see hidden and deleted posts. Dur

If I could link them, I would.

Right, so even though Russ and I provided you a summary of posts that were removed, you still believe that we're lying about it.

I don't need to appeal to authority when I was watching the topic and watching replies disappear.

I didn't say you personally were lying. One of you were trigger happy. That is for sure.

Okay, point taken. You think we're either lying or unaware even though both Russ and I have gone through the entire thread attempting to find what you claim to exist (and finding nothing of the sort).

Let's move along.

[Rustycage]

A man can't take his soon to be mother of his first child to a vacation without you guys getting back on the train of hatred?

lol. Noted. Sad. Or was it the other way around?

Noted.

lol. Sad.

Is that how long it takes you to come up with the same lame posts?

Those are 3 of his last 5 posts. All of them are either insults towards other members or stirring the pot about the skepticism.

Yeah, guys. It's not like there's a group of people saying you were over the top or anything.

You were given a point by point list (twice) of exactly what was removed.

10 posts in 20 pages, the great majority of which was users insulting other users.

It went 20 pages in what, like 30 minutes after he showed up?

[TheSeeker]

Those are two different matters. How Axl conducts his state of affairs are his business. How this forum operates and facilitates conversation is the business of the staff and those who participate.

You just claimed to not support false narratives, but you are actively supporting a man who perpetuates false narratives on behalf of Axl Rose.

And you are supporting him by re-framing narratives in his favor.

You are a liar.

[downzy]

Those are two different matters. How Axl conducts his state of affairs are his business. How this forum operates and facilitates conversation is the business of the staff and those who participate.

You just claimed to not support false narratives, but you are actively supporting a man who perpetuates false narratives on behalf of Axl Rose.

And you are supporting him by re-framing narratives in his favor.

You are a liar.

This is getting ridiculous. I disagree with the argument that the GNR fanbase is nothing more than assholes with chips on their shoulders. What does that have to do with whatever Axl is trying to achieve? Nobody is saying you can't call Axl out on things you personally disagree on. Nobody is prevent anyone here from challenging Fernando on anything he has said. All that we're trying to do is keep things a little more respectful in how we talk to one another.

You are confused.

A man can't take his soon to be mother of his first child to a vacation without you guys getting back on the train of hatred?

lol. Noted. Sad. Or was it the other way around?

Noted.

lol. Sad.

Is that how long it takes you to come up with the same lame posts?

Those are 3 of his last 5 posts. All of them are either insults towards other members or stirring the pot about the skepticism.

Yeah, guys. It's not like there's a group of people saying you were over the top or anything.

You were given a point by point list (twice) of exactly what was removed.

10 posts in 20 pages, the great majority of which was users insulting other users.

It went 20 pages in what, like 30 minutes after he showed up?

The quotes by Fernando you provided were in response to some of the uglier things said towards him. Do I think they were the proper way to respond in terms of PR? Not really. But to suggestion that they were unprovoked insults is to ignore the context in which they were made.

I've gone through pages 30 through 50. Again, nothing was removed that wasn't repetitive, wasn't insulting, and was clogging up the thread.

[RussTCB]

A man can't take his soon to be mother of his first child to a vacation without you guys getting back on the train of hatred?

lol. Noted. Sad. Or was it the other way around?

Noted.

lol. Sad.

Is that how long it takes you to come up with the same lame posts?

Those are 3 of his last 5 posts. All of them are either insults towards other members or stirring the pot about the skepticism.

Yeah, guys. It's not like there's a group of people saying you were over the top or anything.

You were given a point by point list (twice) of exactly what was removed.

10 posts in 20 pages, the great majority of which was users insulting other users.

It went 20 pages in what, like 30 minutes after he showed up?

No, it took 2 days to get to 20 page.

I just scanned the next 10 pages and here's the run down:

Page 21, 3 posts removed for being off topic or insulting other users, Page 25, 1 post removed for being off topic, Page 26, 1 post removed for insulting the forum

Page 27, 2 posts removed for insulting another user, Page 28, 1 post removed for insulting another user

Page 29, 2 posts removed for insulting another user, Page 30, 3 posts removed for not posting in English, 2 post removed for insulting the forum

15 posts removed in 10 pages, all but 2 were removed for various insults of other users.

[Słash]

I guess everyone should calm down, Fernando came and went and we are fighting with each other.

Thanks Downzy for responding to people, I really like this cause it connects the fan base more, things should be cleared.

If this forum was in Madison's hands then 90% of the people would have been banned by now lol

[Janis]

I've been trying to avoid getting involved in this, but I couldn't resist. So here is hopefully my only tirade on the subject.

I take your point. Perhaps we should lock it up again.

I don't personally know why Fernando joined the thread or what he hoped to gain from it but I do know that if we don't show a willingness to communicate civilly (and yes it goes both ways) then we have zero chance of being informed when there is something to say. At which point people will continue to moan that we are told nothing.

It might lead to nothing given past experience but if we can't be prepared to play nice ourselves then the concept of hateful, undeserving fans will remain as a reason to explain why we are kept in the dark. Remove that reason then the legitimate complaints the fan base have hold more weight and perhaps criticism can be viewed with more justification.

Completely disagree with this. It is not the fans job to initiate and promote band activity. It is the fans job to go to shows, buy CDs/MP3's, buy shirts, talk about the band, etc.. The fans have done their part (and more!) over the last 20 years. The "band" (does anyone really think this is a band anymore?) has failed miserably. Like you said, "it goes both ways," except for the last 20 years, it's only been going one way......

Management is going to withhold news because some fans on MyGNR are pissed and rude? If that's the case, that's a fucked up business model. SoulMonster covered this pretty well already: Harsh criticism from patrons of your product should not be a disincentive to productivity; quite the opposite if you want to be taken seriously.

And even more lol at the "if we're well behaved, we'll get news:" Remember that MyGNR exclusive, 2-3 new songs in last year's touring?

And alfie, I really do like your posts, but I can't believe you used the term "undeserving fans." Are some of them pissed? Yeah. Hateful at times even? Maybe some. But no one who signs up on a GNR forum to talk about the band is "undeserving" of news.

Put it this way: you're the CEO of a major corporation, you have 20,000 investors owning public stock. The COO and CFO quit within months of each other after 7 years of no new products...... and there's still not any substantive news nor are there any press releases. Is it unreasonable for the people who have put their time and money into this organization to be quite pissed?

I don't think Mags comment was out of line since GNR/management themselves told their fans that they must either get on board or fuck off. That's not very nice.

Agreed. We're (mostly) all adults here, why can't we tell someone to "fuck off?" Mags wasn't being malicious or provocative; it was a disgruntled response. Now if mags had said, "fuck you, you bitch" or something like that - I'd be more understanding of the moderation.

Omar,

I agree and disagree with several of the points you raise. I do agree that it's not the fans' job to initiate and promote band activity. It's not the fans role to act professionally. We're fans. We're suppose to do one thing: enjoy what the band gives us so long as we like it. That's it. And if we're being frank, what little the band has given us fans hasn't been great the past few years. No new music, no communication as to where the band stands, departing band members, less than stellar shows, etc. As a fanbase, we're well past skeptical, long behind cynicism, and have entered into disgruntled if not hostile territory. We've been asked to believe and support a band that has given us many false starts and poor implementation of years ("Round ;1" "there will be music this year;" "there are 13 Tuesday left this year," "March 6, 2007" tentative album release, and if there's a delay, "you will be notified;" no comment on the departures of Robin, DJ and a late response to Ron's departure, "two to three new songs," etc). So who we are and where we are as a fanbase isn't lost on the mod staff here and it may surprise most that it isn't lost by GNR management.

Where we need to clarify matters is on your following points. No, management isn't going to withhold news because some fans on this forum or other forums are pissed and rude. Management is going to withhold news because I would assume they've learned their lessons on what happens when you promise something and then fail to deliver. With an artist is erratic as Axl, even the best prepared plans can go to hell quickly for reasons only Axl can (but often doesn't) explain. I've spoken with Fernando and he gets it in terms of criticisms. He even told me that many of the ideas and feedback this forum and others provide are valid and worth listening to. Trust me when I say that news isn't dependent on how well we all behave. I'm sorry if Alfie gave you that impression, but that's now how this band operates. They're not waiting around until everyone here says something nice about Axl to call up the record company and tell them to come pick up the next GNR album.

Where I disagree is how you interpreted Alfie's comment on "undeserving fans." She didn't say that there were undeserving fans, but was arguing about the concept, or, as I would put it, the narrative. I agree, no one here is an undeserving fan (at least 99 percent to the people here, that Dazey deserves jack shit ) What she's talking about is the narrative that sometimes gets perpetuated by some of the excessively mean-spirtited comments made here and other fans. As I mentioned previously, this isn't an easy band to be a fan of and support. To go all Yoda for a moment: frustration leads to disappointment, disappointment leads to anger, and anger leads to hate. And we've gotten to the point where valid criticisms of the band, Axl, and management at times gets bathed in mean-spirited, hateful, and vulgar language. What myself and the staff are attempting to do is dial the needle back a bit so that frustrations and feelings of disappointment have a place be expressed without spilling over into a tone that no supposed online fan community should accept. Want to express your frustration and disappointment about Axl's latest performance or how the band fails to communicate with fans? Have at it. Want to call Axl a fat asshole because of it? No. I also want to avoid a situation found at other forums where criticisms of the band are immediately greeted by a condescending response by forum staff. You shouldn't be made to feel small because you take issue with what's going on (or not going on) with the band (but at the same time, you shouldn't be made to feel like a naive idiot for expressing a positive sentiment about the band). I acknowledge that this is a bit of a policy shift that hasn't been well communicated by myself, but it's a move I think this forum needs. But ultimately what this shift allows us to do is combat the narrative that all this forum permits and promotes is hate. As tired and frustrated as I am with the band's inactivity, I'm also tired of reading some really vile filth about a band we're all suppose to be a fan of. That's the narrative I want to combat, not the reality of undeserving fans because as I said, other than Dazey (j/k), no one here is undeserving.

As for Mags' one day suspension (and let's keep in mind it was for one day, some are acting like he was banned outright), we don't normally address reprimands of members but I'll make an exception here. I do so because it underscores much of what I'm addressing in this post. It's one thing to say "fuck off" in a flippant, casual manner (Len says it in response to things he doesn't believe), it's another to tell someone that they "can fuck off" under the context of telling another person off (and then following it up by calling a person a derogatory name). Context matters.

But that's all besides the point. Here's what happens if we did nothing: a) it gives the impression that it's okay for others to tell Fernando or anyone else off because they disagree with something they say; b) once others start telling Fernando to fuck off and we're forced to step in because it gets out of hand, then we're accused of playing favourites because we did nothing when Mags did it. Let's acknowledge that there is a ton of frustration and anger towards the band and that many would love an opportunity to tee off on someone connected if given the chance. We're simply not going to allow the forum to serve as a springboard for that purpose. Maybe you and others are fine with a forum where we allow others to clog up threads in nasty pissing matches but myself, the staff, and others are not. It will ultimately result in a lot more work for a staff that doesn't get paid and does volunteers their time to make this forum work.

Furthermore, MYGNRFORUM members for years have been asking for greater communication with the band and its management. We finally have a member of management stop by and willing to start an informal and casual dialogue with the fanbase. Sure, many felt that the communication and information provided by Fernando was light, inconsistent, and underwhelming. But many others enjoyed having him here and several people were able to get some of their questions answered. So for one person to think he can tell Fernando where to go is, in my opinion, a extremely selfish act. It's as if he didn't care what kind of an effect his outburst would have on others simply because he felt slighted. Were some of the things Fernando said somewhat hyperbolic and worthy of being challenged? Certainly. But as Facekicker illustrated with his post (as have others), there is a far more appropriate way to respond. And it's not as though numerous warnings weren't given by myself and other members of the staff. We explicitly stated that criticisms were fine but to please be respectful. Admittedly we supervised that thread far more than we do the rest of the site, but considering the context and how it affects all members of the forum, it was more than justified. Recall that yourself and other members only have to consider your own thoughts and feelings. Admins and moderators have to consider the welfare of the forum as a whole.

Great post. The moderators do a great job on this forum.