Dear Fermanager,: A Retrospective

[alfierose]

I've been trying to avoid getting involved in this, but I couldn't resist. So here is hopefully my only tirade on the subject.

I take your point. Perhaps we should lock it up again.

I don't personally know why Fernando joined the thread or what he hoped to gain from it but I do know that if we don't show a willingness to communicate civilly (and yes it goes both ways) then we have zero chance of being informed when there is something to say. At which point people will continue to moan that we are told nothing.

It might lead to nothing given past experience but if we can't be prepared to play nice ourselves then the concept of hateful, undeserving fans will remain as a reason to explain why we are kept in the dark. Remove that reason then the legitimate complaints the fan base have hold more weight and perhaps criticism can be viewed with more justification.

Completely disagree with this. It is not the fans job to initiate and promote band activity. It is the fans job to go to shows, buy CDs/MP3's, buy shirts, talk about the band, etc.. The fans have done their part (and more!) over the last 20 years. The "band" (does anyone really think this is a band anymore?) has failed miserably. Like you said, "it goes both ways," except for the last 20 years, it's only been going one way......

Management is going to withhold news because some fans on MyGNR are pissed and rude? If that's the case, that's a fucked up business model. SoulMonster covered this pretty well already: Harsh criticism from patrons of your product should not be a disincentive to productivity; quite the opposite if you want to be taken seriously.

And even more lol at the "if we're well behaved, we'll get news:" Remember that MyGNR exclusive, 2-3 new songs in last year's touring?

And alfie, I really do like your posts, but I can't believe you used the term "undeserving fans." Are some of them pissed? Yeah. Hateful at times even? Maybe some. But no one who signs up on a GNR forum to talk about the band is "undeserving" of news.

Put it this way: you're the CEO of a major corporation, you have 20,000 investors owning public stock. The COO and CFO quit within months of each other after 7 years of no new products...... and there's still not any substantive news nor are there any press releases. Is it unreasonable for the people who have put their time and money into this organization to be quite pissed?

I don't think Mags comment was out of line since GNR/management themselves told their fans that they must either get on board or fuck off. That's not very nice.

Agreed. We're (mostly) all adults here, why can't we tell someone to "fuck off?" Mags wasn't being malicious or provocative; it was a disgruntled response. Now if mags had said, "fuck you, you bitch" or something like that - I'd be more understanding of the moderation.

Maybe I should have put it quotation marks, the reference to undeserving and hateful was a deliberate mirroring of how management have maybe viewed us in the past. It's not my opinion - I thought that much would be obvious.

It's fine if you disagree with my view, I don't think it is the job of the fans to painfully extract information under any normal circumstances but as the forum is under a new administration I think we should attempt to foster good relations and if it falls flat at least we know we made the best go of it.

I don't really see why anyone has a massive issue with this.

What do you mean by foster good relations? The fans have been fostering good relations with GNR/TB for the past 20 years by being diligent fans. Can't blame them if they get pissed when management then spits it back in their face (time and time again). Fernando came, and although he did say some nice things, overall he was evasive, and a bit rude - treating it like it was a game. People saw that, and reacted.

I don't know if it's all Axl, all TB, or a mix - but there has to be accountability somewhere.

I suppose I mean keeping a dialogue open between here and the camp, one that can remain civil but with room for criticism. That's kind of what we're aiming for. No one is being stopped from calling it as they see it providing they stay in forum rules. Facekicker made an excellent such post in the Fermanager thread that highlighted fan frustrations without being antagonistic or rude.

[downzy]

I've been trying to avoid getting involved in this, but I couldn't resist. So here is hopefully my only tirade on the subject.

I take your point. Perhaps we should lock it up again.

I don't personally know why Fernando joined the thread or what he hoped to gain from it but I do know that if we don't show a willingness to communicate civilly (and yes it goes both ways) then we have zero chance of being informed when there is something to say. At which point people will continue to moan that we are told nothing.

It might lead to nothing given past experience but if we can't be prepared to play nice ourselves then the concept of hateful, undeserving fans will remain as a reason to explain why we are kept in the dark. Remove that reason then the legitimate complaints the fan base have hold more weight and perhaps criticism can be viewed with more justification.

Completely disagree with this. It is not the fans job to initiate and promote band activity. It is the fans job to go to shows, buy CDs/MP3's, buy shirts, talk about the band, etc.. The fans have done their part (and more!) over the last 20 years. The "band" (does anyone really think this is a band anymore?) has failed miserably. Like you said, "it goes both ways," except for the last 20 years, it's only been going one way......

Management is going to withhold news because some fans on MyGNR are pissed and rude? If that's the case, that's a fucked up business model. SoulMonster covered this pretty well already: Harsh criticism from patrons of your product should not be a disincentive to productivity; quite the opposite if you want to be taken seriously.

And even more lol at the "if we're well behaved, we'll get news:" Remember that MyGNR exclusive, 2-3 new songs in last year's touring?

And alfie, I really do like your posts, but I can't believe you used the term "undeserving fans." Are some of them pissed? Yeah. Hateful at times even? Maybe some. But no one who signs up on a GNR forum to talk about the band is "undeserving" of news.

Put it this way: you're the CEO of a major corporation, you have 20,000 investors owning public stock. The COO and CFO quit within months of each other after 7 years of no new products...... and there's still not any substantive news nor are there any press releases. Is it unreasonable for the people who have put their time and money into this organization to be quite pissed?

I don't think Mags comment was out of line since GNR/management themselves told their fans that they must either get on board or fuck off. That's not very nice.

Agreed. We're (mostly) all adults here, why can't we tell someone to "fuck off?" Mags wasn't being malicious or provocative; it was a disgruntled response. Now if mags had said, "fuck you, you bitch" or something like that - I'd be more understanding of the moderation.

Omar,

I agree and disagree with several of the points you raise. I do agree that it's not the fans' job to initiate and promote band activity. It's not the fans role to act professionally. We're fans. We're suppose to do one thing: enjoy what the band gives us so long as we like it. That's it. And if we're being frank, what little the band has given us fans hasn't been great the past few years. No new music, no communication as to where the band stands, departing band members, less than stellar shows, etc. As a fanbase, we're well past skeptical, long behind cynicism, and have entered into disgruntled if not hostile territory. We've been asked to believe and support a band that has given us many false starts and poor implementation of years ("Round ;1" "there will be music this year;" "there are 13 Tuesday left this year," "March 6, 2007" tentative album release, and if there's a delay, "you will be notified;" no comment on the departures of Robin, DJ and a late response to Ron's departure, "two to three new songs," etc). So who we are and where we are as a fanbase isn't lost on the mod staff here and it may surprise most that it isn't lost by GNR management.

Where we need to clarify matters is on your following points. No, management isn't going to withhold news because some fans on this forum or other forums are pissed and rude. Management is going to withhold news because I would assume they've learned their lessons on what happens when you promise something and then fail to deliver. With an artist is erratic as Axl, even the best prepared plans can go to hell quickly for reasons only Axl can (but often doesn't) explain. I've spoken with Fernando and he gets it in terms of criticisms. He even told me that many of the ideas and feedback this forum and others provide are valid and worth listening to. Trust me when I say that news isn't dependent on how well we all behave. I'm sorry if Alfie gave you that impression, but that's now how this band operates. They're not waiting around until everyone here says something nice about Axl to call up the record company and tell them to come pick up the next GNR album.

Where I disagree is how you interpreted Alfie's comment on "undeserving fans." She didn't say that there were undeserving fans, but was arguing about the concept, or, as I would put it, the narrative. I agree, no one here is an undeserving fan (at least 99 percent to the people here, that Dazey deserves jack shit ) What she's talking about is the narrative that sometimes gets perpetuated by some of the excessively mean-spirtited comments made here and other fans. As I mentioned previously, this isn't an easy band to be a fan of and support. To go all Yoda for a moment: frustration leads to disappointment, disappointment leads to anger, and anger leads to hate. And we've gotten to the point where valid criticisms of the band, Axl, and management at times gets bathed in mean-spirited, hateful, and vulgar language. What myself and the staff are attempting to do is dial the needle back a bit so that frustrations and feelings of disappointment have a place be expressed without spilling over into a tone that no supposed online fan community should accept. Want to express your frustration and disappointment about Axl's latest performance or how the band fails to communicate with fans? Have at it. Want to call Axl a fat asshole because of it? No. I also want to avoid a situation found at other forums where criticisms of the band are immediately greeted by a condescending response by forum staff. You shouldn't be made to feel small because you take issue with what's going on (or not going on) with the band (but at the same time, you shouldn't be made to feel like a naive idiot for expressing a positive sentiment about the band). I acknowledge that this is a bit of a policy shift that hasn't been well communicated by myself, but it's a move I think this forum needs. But ultimately what this shift allows us to do is combat the narrative that all this forum permits and promotes is hate. As tired and frustrated as I am with the band's inactivity, I'm also tired of reading some really vile filth about a band we're all suppose to be a fan of. That's the narrative I want to combat, not the reality of undeserving fans because as I said, other than Dazey (j/k), no one here is undeserving.

As for Mags' one day suspension (and let's keep in mind it was for one day, some are acting like he was banned outright), we don't normally address reprimands of members but I'll make an exception here. I do so because it underscores much of what I'm addressing in this post. It's one thing to say "fuck off" in a flippant, casual manner (Len says it in response to things he doesn't believe), it's another to tell someone that they "can fuck off" under the context of telling another person off (and then following it up by calling a person a derogatory name). Context matters.

But that's all besides the point. Here's what happens if we did nothing: a) it gives the impression that it's okay for others to tell Fernando or anyone else off because they disagree with something they say; b) once others start telling Fernando to fuck off and we're forced to step in because it gets out of hand, then we're accused of playing favourites because we did nothing when Mags did it. Let's acknowledge that there is a ton of frustration and anger towards the band and that many would love an opportunity to tee off on someone connected if given the chance. We're simply not going to allow the forum to serve as a springboard for that purpose. Maybe you and others are fine with a forum where we allow others to clog up threads in nasty pissing matches but myself, the staff, and others are not. It will ultimately result in a lot more work for a staff that doesn't get paid and does volunteers their time to make this forum work.

Furthermore, MYGNRFORUM members for years have been asking for greater communication with the band and its management. We finally have a member of management stop by and willing to start an informal and casual dialogue with the fanbase. Sure, many felt that the communication and information provided by Fernando was light, inconsistent, and underwhelming. But many others enjoyed having him here and several people were able to get some of their questions answered. So for one person to think he can tell Fernando where to go is, in my opinion, a extremely selfish act. It's as if he didn't care what kind of an effect his outburst would have on others simply because he felt slighted. Were some of the things Fernando said somewhat hyperbolic and worthy of being challenged? Certainly. But as Facekicker illustrated with his post (as have others), there is a far more appropriate way to respond. And it's not as though numerous warnings weren't given by myself and other members of the staff. We explicitly stated that criticisms were fine but to please be respectful. Admittedly we supervised that thread far more than we do the rest of the site, but considering the context and how it affects all members of the forum, it was more than justified. Recall that yourself and other members only have to consider your own thoughts and feelings. Admins and moderators have to consider the welfare of the forum as a whole.

[OmarBradley]

That makes a lot more of this more transparent, thank you for typing that up Downzy. I do see the "fuck off" conundrum a bit more from your POV now. I'll admit I still have a few disagreements, but policy is policy, and I know you (and the rest of the team) have put an immense amount of work into the forum.

[TheSeeker]

But that's all besides the point. Here's what happens if we did nothing: a) it gives the impression that it's okay for others to tell Fernando or anyone else off because they disagree with something they say; b) once others start telling Fernando to fuck off and we're forced to step in because it gets out of hand, then we're accused of playing favourites because we did nothing when Mags did it. Let's acknowledge that there is a ton of frustration and anger towards the band and that many would love an opportunity to tee off on someone connected if given the chance. We're simply not going to allow the forum to serve as a springboard for that purpose. Maybe you and others are fine with a forum where we allow others to clog up threads in nasty pissing matches but myself, the staff, and others are not. It will ultimately result in a lot more work for a staff that doesn't get paid and does volunteers their time to make this forum work.

So lock that thread. By pinning that thread, you basically hung a piñata and are telling people not to hit it.

We finally have a member of management stop by and willing to start an informal and casual dialogue with the fanbase. Sure, many felt that the communication and information provided by Fernando was light, inconsistent, and underwhelming.

You're admitting that the piñata is empty inside.

Take down the piñata.

[tomfriend]

Had to stop by and chip in, since I was informed offsite that Mags was suspended for essentially the same reason I left (although he wasn't lied about by the mods).

In a nutshell, I was under the impression that this forum exists as it's own community. It has no official affiliation. MyGNRForum is it's own entity. If a bandmember, manager or Axl's boot polisher stop by, they are stepping into our yard. Both my post and Mags were entirely in keeping in terms of tone, language etc. with previous posts that were taken in good humour and left unmoderrated.

The second Axl's manager's son stops by, apparently the back and forth of the community which HE has chosen to visit....is deemed no longer acceptable. Pardon me, but that is sycophancy of the highest order. Others have mentioned previously vocal opposers of the management kissing arse in that thread. Personally I find that spineless and two-faced. People with integrity are willing to 'say it to your face'. Is there a limit to that? Of course, threats, over the top abuse etc. But concluding a message with 'fuck right off' or 'get the fuck outta here' is and always has been de rigeur around here. The language of the frustration and also in both my and Mags case I'd wager, an element of tongue in cheek dismissal of the obviously sinking ship that is GNR.

It was acceptable then. It's not acceptable when we have our most honoured guest, Fernando. That seems to be the message. The community as it is day to day, based on the actions of the mods, is not good enough. Put on your Sunday best and wash your mouth's out with soap. So well done, alienate one of the best members this board has, plus my admittedly far lesser ass, and no doubt others, all in the name of finding out what kind of sandwiches Señor Periphery has when he's in Delaware. Very, very Jarmo.

This site is made by the community. Fernando came here knowing what that community is, how we talk. To me all the censoring of that thread shows is that the people who run this community are ashamed of it, or at least it's members. If you're asking your members to 'play nice', express themselves differently, modify their language all in the name of sucking up to someone we all know fully well regards us as shit on his bootheel and isn't going to tell us anything, that's betraying what the spirit of this whole place and for zero gain.

Don't management already have their own fan forum that Fernando could easily go to and they could moderate and sanitize discussion to their heart's content, by the way? Hmm, but nobody goes there. I wonder why...

I don't doubt that this entire affair has lowered the standing of fans in the eyes of 'them' even further. The mods have essentially shown management (and stated here in this thread) that if they throw them the most pitiful of crumbs, we'll make them 'jump and be good'. Well, I don't vant to do eet.

That is all.

Edited August 13, 2015 by tomfriend

[Rustycage]

For GNR and their management, it would be a hell of a lot more logical for them to wear shoes instead of trying to carpet the world.

[TheSeeker]

Don't management already have their own fan forum that Fernando could easily go to and they could moderate and sanitize discussion to their heart's content, by the way? Hmm, but nobody goes there. I wonder why...

It's almost like the admin here has a deathwish and wants the forum to become a ghost town like HTGTH.

This is a good first step.

[Apollo]

I don't think Mags comment was out of line since GNR/management themselves told their fans that they must either get on board or fuck off. That's not very nice.

I didn't know about that.

Somebody from the GnR Camp actually said that?

[tomfriend]

I don't think Mags comment was out of line since GNR/management themselves told their fans that they must either get on board or fuck off. That's not very nice.

I didn't know about that.Somebody from the GnR Camp actually said that?

Yes, on Facebook last year if memory serves. And it was an actual post, not a comment reply.

[Rustycage]

Don't management already have their own fan forum that Fernando could easily go to and they could moderate and sanitize discussion to their heart's content, by the way? Hmm, but nobody goes there. I wonder why...

It's almost like the admin here has a deathwish and wants the forum to become a ghost town like HTGTH.

This is a good first step.

I don't think it is that malicious.

I have clashed with a few of the guys from the past admin and I think each new group is trying too hard to conform to what the GNR camp expects. Eventually, they see it is pointless and move on. Only for the next group to try it again. Good intentions that will lead to nothing but ruin. It's unrealistic. In the land of no news and total disrespect, cracking jokes and bashing is what has killed time for over a decade. Taking that away may seem minor but it's only going to snowball into a more boring and less frequented place with the same amount of GNR involvement as today.

Look at the GNR fan club. Look at HTGTH. Nothing noteworthy.

People finally see something going on with members leaving and a "manager" stopping by and expect something other than bullshit. And what happens? More bullshit. Then the excuse for the bullshit is: "Because of the bullshit." Just WTF.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Rustycage

[Apollo]

You really think there's a chance he is going to fire Beta's son? Over some pretty typical questions?

This is the same guy most likely behind the leaks.

Fernando has no reason to do that. I think one only needs to look at Axl's track record with people who went against him in some way (as he sees it)

Marc was one of his best friends. Managers came and went. He can fire Fernando and still be his fake big brother.

Look at the post above yours.

What do you mean he has no reason to do that?

Merck wasn't the son of his closest relationship figure. Never mix family/friends with business. Axl's already too late for that lesson and it's rather naive to think that TB has no power at all.

If Merck had leaked the album or booked a bowling alley gig he would have been shown the door.

Your conspiracy theory about Fernando leaking shit is unlikely at best imo.

It's naive to think Axl can be controlled by anyone. He has worked very hard to make sure he is the boss. And he's not stupid. I believe he has total control and TB sometimes acts to shield him from what and who they think might piss him off.

You have no proof for what you're suggesting and those are pretty wild claims. Nothing we've seen has indicated Axl is not the only one who calls the shots. TB works for him. He trusts them, and in return they get to live the good life. They've got it made, why would they risk that? makes no sense to me.

Sad - but that makes the most sense.

The only bad part is there is ONE loser in that scenario. FANS of Axl Rose's music.

Fans of Axl Rose music have gotten on album of original material in the last 24 years, with no new album in site. Any management team worth a 1/4 of a shit would do everything that they could to convince Axl to share more music with his fans.

[downzy]

But that's all besides the point. Here's what happens if we did nothing: a) it gives the impression that it's okay for others to tell Fernando or anyone else off because they disagree with something they say; b) once others start telling Fernando to fuck off and we're forced to step in because it gets out of hand, then we're accused of playing favourites because we did nothing when Mags did it. Let's acknowledge that there is a ton of frustration and anger towards the band and that many would love an opportunity to tee off on someone connected if given the chance. We're simply not going to allow the forum to serve as a springboard for that purpose. Maybe you and others are fine with a forum where we allow others to clog up threads in nasty pissing matches but myself, the staff, and others are not. It will ultimately result in a lot more work for a staff that doesn't get paid and does volunteers their time to make this forum work.

So lock that thread. By pinning that thread, you basically hung a piñata and are telling people not to hit it.

We finally have a member of management stop by and willing to start an informal and casual dialogue with the fanbase. Sure, many felt that the communication and information provided by Fernando was light, inconsistent, and underwhelming.

You're admitting that the piñata is empty inside.

Take down the piñata.

No, because the other option is that we ask people to see it for what it is. If you don't find it worthwhile or you can't be respectful then don't participate. Again, you're welcome to criticize and voice your frustrations, but if you can't be mature about it then your post will be removed and you'll be asked to leave. That thread represents less than one percent of the forum. There is way more to this forum that that one thread. There's plenty of other topics you and others can participate in if you're not down for following the guidelines of that one thread. Many others do enjoy it for what it is. Why should we close it because yourself and others don't agree?

[TheSeeker]

But that's all besides the point. Here's what happens if we did nothing: a) it gives the impression that it's okay for others to tell Fernando or anyone else off because they disagree with something they say; b) once others start telling Fernando to fuck off and we're forced to step in because it gets out of hand, then we're accused of playing favourites because we did nothing when Mags did it. Let's acknowledge that there is a ton of frustration and anger towards the band and that many would love an opportunity to tee off on someone connected if given the chance. We're simply not going to allow the forum to serve as a springboard for that purpose. Maybe you and others are fine with a forum where we allow others to clog up threads in nasty pissing matches but myself, the staff, and others are not. It will ultimately result in a lot more work for a staff that doesn't get paid and does volunteers their time to make this forum work.

So lock that thread. By pinning that thread, you basically hung a piñata and are telling people not to hit it.

We finally have a member of management stop by and willing to start an informal and casual dialogue with the fanbase. Sure, many felt that the communication and information provided by Fernando was light, inconsistent, and underwhelming.

You're admitting that the piñata is empty inside.

Take down the piñata.

No, because the other option is that we ask people to see it for what it is. If you don't find it worthwhile or you can't be respectful then don't participate. Again, you're welcome to criticize and voice your frustrations, but if you can't be mature about it then your post will be removed and you'll be asked to leave. That thread represents less than one percent of the forum. There is way more to this forum that that one thread. There's plenty of other topics you and others can participate in if you're not down for following the guidelines of that one thread. Many others do enjoy it for what it is. Why should we close it because yourself and others don't agree?

You drank the Kool Aid, man. I've already talked to like 20 people who aren't posting here anymore because of this.

MyGNR was the refuge of freedom after Jarmo went insane and started obsessively deleting posts on HTGTH, trying to censor opposing viewpoints.

So i ask you this - how is what you're doing any different than what Jarmo was doing?

[downzy]

Had to stop by and chip in, since I was informed offsite that Mags was suspended for essentially the same reason I left (although he wasn't lied about by the mods).

In a nutshell, I was under the impression that this forum exists as it's own community. It has no official affiliation. MyGNRForum is it's own entity. If a bandmember, manager or Axl's boot polisher stop by, they are stepping into our yard. Both my post and Mags were entirely in keeping in terms of tone, language etc. with previous posts that were taken in good humour and left unmoderrated.

The second Axl's manager's son stops by, apparently the back and forth of the community which HE has chosen to visit....is deemed no longer acceptable. Pardon me, but that is sycophancy of the highest order. Others have mentioned previously vocal opposers of the management kissing arse in that thread. Personally I find that spineless and two-faced. People with integrity are willing to 'say it to your face'. Is there a limit to that? Of course, threats, over the top abuse etc. But concluding a message with 'fuck right off' or 'get the fuck outta here' is and always has been de rigeur around here. The language of the frustration and also in both my and Mags case I'd wager, an element of tongue in cheek dismissal of the obviously sinking ship that is GNR.

It was acceptable then. It's not acceptable when we have our most honoured guest, Fernando. That seems to be the message. The community as it is day to day, based on the actions of the mods, is not good enough. Put on your Sunday best and wash your mouth's out with soap. So well done, alienate one of the best members this board has, plus my admittedly far lesser ass, and no doubt others, all in the name of finding out what kind of sandwiches Señor Periphery has when he's in Delaware. Very, very Jarmo.

This site is made by the community. Fernando came here knowing what that community is, how we talk. To me all the censoring of that thread shows is that the people who run this community are ashamed of it, or at least it's members. If you're asking your members to 'play nice', express themselves differently, modify their language all in the name of sucking up to someone we all know fully well regards us as shit on his bootheel and isn't going to tell us anything, that's betraying what the spirit of this whole place and for zero gain.

Don't management already have their own fan forum that Fernando could easily go to and they could moderate and sanitize discussion to their heart's content, by the way? Hmm, but nobody goes there. I wonder why...

I don't doubt that this entire affair has lowered the standing of fans in the eyes of 'them' even further. The mods have essentially shown management (and stated here in this thread) that if they throw them the most pitiful of crumbs, we'll make them 'jump and be good'. Well, I don't vant to do eet.

That is all.

You were told why your post was deleted. I apologize if you re-added the as a result of you editing the post, but it still doesn't change the fact that you can't tell someone to fuck off as a means of telling them off. If you have a problem with that, then find another place to discuss. Why you feel it's so important and necessary to be antagonistic is beyond me. As I stated in my long-worded post, I get the frustration and I get the anger. But I disagree with the argument that such disappointment and frustration warrant that kind of dialogue.

Furthermore, as a result of your post, I left a general warning that explicitly stated that telling someone to fuck off would not be tolerated:

http://www.mygnrforum.com/index.php?/topic/212220-dear-fermanager/?p=4001959

It can't be argued that fair warning wasn't given. Mods/admins generally conduct ourselves by removing the first offending post but not providing any kind of reprimand other than a general warning. It's those who disregard the general warning that then received warning points and suspensions. It's how we've done it since the end of last year when I took an admin job.

But that's all besides the point. Here's what happens if we did nothing: a) it gives the impression that it's okay for others to tell Fernando or anyone else off because they disagree with something they say; b) once others start telling Fernando to fuck off and we're forced to step in because it gets out of hand, then we're accused of playing favourites because we did nothing when Mags did it. Let's acknowledge that there is a ton of frustration and anger towards the band and that many would love an opportunity to tee off on someone connected if given the chance. We're simply not going to allow the forum to serve as a springboard for that purpose. Maybe you and others are fine with a forum where we allow others to clog up threads in nasty pissing matches but myself, the staff, and others are not. It will ultimately result in a lot more work for a staff that doesn't get paid and does volunteers their time to make this forum work.

So lock that thread. By pinning that thread, you basically hung a piñata and are telling people not to hit it.

We finally have a member of management stop by and willing to start an informal and casual dialogue with the fanbase. Sure, many felt that the communication and information provided by Fernando was light, inconsistent, and underwhelming.

You're admitting that the piñata is empty inside.

Take down the piñata.

No, because the other option is that we ask people to see it for what it is. If you don't find it worthwhile or you can't be respectful then don't participate. Again, you're welcome to criticize and voice your frustrations, but if you can't be mature about it then your post will be removed and you'll be asked to leave. That thread represents less than one percent of the forum. There is way more to this forum that that one thread. There's plenty of other topics you and others can participate in if you're not down for following the guidelines of that one thread. Many others do enjoy it for what it is. Why should we close it because yourself and others don't agree?

You drank the Kool Aid, man. I've already talked to like 20 people who aren't posting here anymore because of this.

MyGNR was the refuge of freedom after Jarmo went insane and started obsessively deleting posts on HTGTH, trying to censor opposing viewpoints.

So i ask you this - how is what you're doing any different than what Jarmo was doing?

Nobody is censuring shit. All that we're asking is that people dial down the disrespect and vulgarness. Look through the two threads related to Fernando, there are a ton of posts in there that are highly critical of TB, Axl, and the band.

How we're different is that you don't have mods and admins jumping down people's throats whenever they voice criticisms of the band. We allow for a broad range of opinions. Show me where a mod or an admin jumped down someone's throat for voicing their opinion on the band? We don't do that here.

[Rustycage]

Seeing it as it is: Do you really think that this casual conversation is going to lead to more visits and more information in the future?

How did that work out for the other fansite and the fanclub?

[Apollo]

I don't think Mags comment was out of line since GNR/management themselves told their fans that they must either get on board or fuck off. That's not very nice.

I didn't know about that.Somebody from the GnR Camp actually said that?

Yes, on Facebook last year if memory serves. And it was an actual post, not a comment reply.

I suppose there is some validity to the idea that you get what you give.

Telling fans to f*ck off. Callings fans racists. Saying somebody leaking a song is the reason we don't get new music. Saying all we do is complain, complain, complain. Rarely updating fans on the status of the band. Do all that and then expect fans to kiss your ass when you drop by and chat for a few minutes? Especially when we are supposed to give you more respect than the normal poster because you are affiliated with the band......even though you aren't here to represent the band with what you are posting.

That's just a recipe for negativity.

I'm pretty sure I remember a Mod on here telling another poster to "f*ck off" in a political thread. But Mags gets suspended for doing the same thing?

I really think that to avoid all the drama, it's as simple as Fernando or Downzy declaring what hat Fernando is wearing when he decides to post here. Management. Axl's Camp. Friend of the band. And if he is coming here to answer questions or just to chat and chill.

But the suspensions, post deletions and heavy hand at moderating.......sure makes is look like the forum owners are just kissing Fernando's ass.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

[TheSeeker]

Show me where a mod or an admin jumped down someone's throat for voicing their opinion on the band? We don't do that here.

You are deleting posts without explanation - that is ten times worse. Controlling the narrative is not the job of a moderator.

If you can't accept someone saying "fuck", just add a wordfilter that changes "fuck" to "forget" and be done with it.

[downzy]

I don't think Mags comment was out of line since GNR/management themselves told their fans that they must either get on board or fuck off. That's not very nice.

I didn't know about that.Somebody from the GnR Camp actually said that?

Yes, on Facebook last year if memory serves. And it was an actual post, not a comment reply.

I suppose there is some validity to the idea that you get what you give.

Telling fans to f*ck off. Callings fans racists. Saying somebody leaking a song is the reason we don't get new music. Saying all we do is complain, complain, complain. Rarely updating fans on the status of the band. Do all that and then expect fans to kiss your ass when you drop by and chat for a few minutes? Especially when we are supposed to give you more respect than the normal poster because you are affiliated with the band......even though you aren't here to represent the band with what you are posting.

That's just a recipe for negativity.

I'm pretty sure I remember a Mod on here telling another poster to "f*ck off" in a political thread. But Mags gets suspended for doing the same thing?

I really think that to avoid all the drama, it's as simple as Fernando or Downzy declaring what hat Fernando is wearing when he decides to post here. Management. Axl's Camp. Friend of the band. And if he is coming here to answer questions or just to chat and chill.

But the suspensions, post deletions and heavy hand at moderating.......sure makes is look like the forum owners are just kissing Fernando's ass.

Just my opinion. I could be wrong.

I don't disagree with your first couple of points in regards to why there's so much negativity. Lack of product minus no communication equals a lot of negative vibes.

Again, understand the context of why at certain times certain matters are allowed to fly and others aren't. Are you saying you don't agree or are you telling someone off. Generally the context of the conversation provides which use of a phrase a person is making. Moreover, it was clearly stated in the thread not to say anything along those lines.

It was clearly stated that Fernando was here to chill and chat. Sure, he gave out some answers and took a few questions, but it was reiterated again and again that the conversation was meant to be a casual conversation.

As for your last point, there's only been one suspension, so not sure why you're pluralizing that word. Second, we provided explanation why posts were removed (person was clogging up the thread, the question/point had already been previously made, rule violations). And to your final point, if we're here just to kiss Fernando and TB's ass, why would we leave posts like this, and this, and this (among others).

Show me where a mod or an admin jumped down someone's throat for voicing their opinion on the band? We don't do that here.

You are deleting posts without explanation - that is ten times worse. Controlling the narrative is not the job of a moderator.

If you can't accept someone saying "fuck", just add a wordfilter that changes "fuck" to "forget" and be done with it.

A) we were providing explanations. B) We have no problem with the word fuck. We have a problem with people telling others off when there was no basis for it.

[tomfriend]

Downzy, I'm not block quoting everything again but your post entirely sidesteps the fact that the language used by board members only became an issue the moment there was a member of band management (or whatever the hell Fernando's title is - I don't even know) came by to suck up to.

If Fernando chooses to come here, why do the rules of what 'here' is suddenly have to be changed to accomodate him? And do me a favour and don't pretend that on any other day of the year those posts wouldn't have escaped deletion. A quick skim of my, Mags or numerous others posting history's will prove otherwise.

Board members true opinions and otherwise commonly accepted expressions being censored to appease the powers that be is why HTGTH has died on it's ass. This is the exact same thing.

If Fernando comes here, he should get MyGNRForum. He should see the same frustration and resentment that this band has gone out of it's way to foster that's here every other day. Why the hell should we have to pretend otherwise? Red carpet treatment for him, meanwhile you sweep the thoughts of longterm community members under it. Pretty clear where your priorities lie.

Edited August 13, 2015 by tomfriend

[SoulMonster]

Comparing mygnrforum to htgth is ridiculous. Jarmo has a history of censoring criticism of the band (that accusation is slightly exaggerated, but okay). what is happening here is asking people to behave like fucking adults but criticism is still allowed, as should be explicitly obvious to anyone. I understand people are upset with the GN'R situation, maybe a bit disappointed with Fernando's visit, and upset that magisme got a one day suspension, but some people here are way off in their criticism of downzy and generally overreacting.

[Słash]

Others have said it pretty well, So I won't indulge in the topic of "fuck off" more, I agree that no one should be insulted and making racist comments and using abusive language should not be tolerated wether its from Fernando or the fans.

I guess we should not keep our hopes up high when asking questions to Fernando cause really we won't get any proper answer from him regarding the future music or future endeavors. Its a sad thing, he is so close to Axl, he is a part of the management team, so that should be a big benefit to the fans, but well its the other way around.

I hope Downzy, Russ and other Admins/Mods keep their word on NOT deleting normal general questions which are not abusive or racist.

Downzy, I know you own this place and you have a right to do anything, but IF Axl shows up and he starts to abuse people, then don't delete his posts, we fans have a right to see it and get to know what kind of a person he can be. I know that thing will turn in to major topics like the Madison thing. I know its a hypothetical thing, but at least we will have something to discuss over.

I don't know what goes behind the scenes, even though im 100% sure Fernando only came here cause of Mags. Just a suggestion that you people should try to do some interviews with Ron, Fortus, Frank, Pitman and Tommy. They are not hard to contact and they will easily do an interview, they are hungry for promotion. Even though we won't get an answer regarding the status of the band, but some interesting questions can be asked, so it would be great if you can do that.

Edited August 13, 2015 by Slash787

[alfierose]

Show me where a mod or an admin jumped down someone's throat for voicing their opinion on the band? We don't do that here.

You are deleting posts without explanation - that is ten times worse. Controlling the narrative is not the job of a moderator.

If you can't accept someone saying "fuck", just add a wordfilter that changes "fuck" to "forget" and be done with it.

Since I logged onto the forum today around lunchtime (UK time) and considering the arguments going on in these Fernando threads, not to mention all the other countless ongoing threads, we have hidden 5 posts between us. Is that really controlling the narrative? As discussed in the moderation thread in Support we remove a very small percentage of what is posted.

I feel like some posters are more bothered about reserving the right to be rude than they are about making posts that will add to a discussion. If you feel passionate about a subject word your post in a way that means it doesn't violate rules and means that others will have the opportunity to read and digest what you have said.

Why is this a problem?

[TheSeeker]

Just a suggestion that you people should try to do some interviews with Ron, Fortus, Frank, Pitman and Tommy. They are not hard to contact and they will easily do an interview, they are hungry for promotion.

What the hell are they promoting?

[Słash]

Just a suggestion that you people should try to do some interviews with Ron, Fortus, Frank, Pitman and Tommy. They are not hard to contact and they will easily do an interview, they are hungry for promotion.

What the hell are they promoting?

Themselves? Their solo stuff?

[downzy]

Downzy, I'm not block quoting everything again but your post entirely sidesteps the fact that the language used by board members only became an issue the moment there was a member of band management (or whatever the hell Fernando's title is - I don't even know) came by to suck up to.

If Fernando chooses to come here, why do the rules of what 'here' is suddenly have to be changed to accomodate him? And do me a favour and don't pretend that on any other day of the year those posts wouldn't have escaped deletion. A quick skim of my, Mags or numerous others posting history's will prove otherwise.

Board members true opinions and otherwise commonly accepted expressions being censored to appease the powers that be is why HTGTH has died on it's ass. This is the exact same thing.

The rules don't change day by day, but much like the law in real life, application of the rules is a bit of an art, not so much of a science. Every day we moderate various threads differently. Some times arguments get heated and we allow them to run for a little while before we step in and issue a general warning. Other times, due to the subject, we have to be a little more strict because as I said in my long-winded post, we have to consider the entire forum and all members, not just the ones who want to tell others off.

We get complaints all the time about why can't the band and management be a little more involved with the hardcore fanbase. So finally a member of GNR's management team pops by and some of those same people complain that they can't tell him to fuck off. And you wonder why management and band members don't come by much... Again, voicing frustrating and complaints and telling someone off are not one in the same. It is possible to be critical and express frustrations without stepping over the line. This forum is meant to allow a broad range of opinions and debates. If you can't make your point without telling someone off or calling someone else a name, then don't make your point at all.

Finally, I've been extremely consistent about how personal attacks would be dealt with since I took over. We do not accept derogatory name calling or personal attacks. So besides telling Fernando that he can fuck off, he was also called a leach for good measure. Any day of the week, regardless of who it was to under the context that it was made, that kind of comment gets at least a general warning and removal. But coupled with the fuck off comment and the fact that several warnings had already been issued, it was an automatic choice.