GNR Women's Discussion - Part 2

[marlenaire]

19 minutes ago, alfierose said:

Hey everyone

I directed @marlenaire to this thread as it seems like she joined up to discuss various aspects of Axl's past. Please can we debate without troll hunting/sarcastic emojis and memes, it's not that long ago a number of you were complaining about newcomers not being given a bit of understanding whilst they get to grips with the dynamics of this thread.

However @marlenaire please understand that people on this thread and forum tend to argue quite robustly and it isn't personal to you. We do not allow personal attacks or insults here but reading through I think everyone has been civil in their disagreement.

You make some interesting points for debate although I don't think it's possible to state Axl has a specific disorder even if traits are evident. I hope you stay around and get to know some of the posters here because debating will become easier with time.

Thank you Alfierose. Just wish to straight this - ALL I write are my personal opinions, so when I say he has this disorder, I do mean it is ACCORDING TO ME ENTIRELY, based on my knowledge and experience. I do not mean it as a fact. Thanks for understanding.

[killuridols]

12 minutes ago, alfierose said:

Hey everyone

I directed @marlenaire to this thread as it seems like she joined up to discuss various aspects of Axl's past. Please can we debate without troll hunting/sarcastic emojis and memes, it's not that long ago a number of you were complaining about newcomers not being given a bit of understanding whilst they get to grips with the dynamics of this thread.

Yo' Alfie, if this is about the Hitler video I posted please let me clarify that I was not laughing at her but WITH her about the whole thing. 

While I don't agree at all with the online "diagnosing" @marlenaire is trying to do of Axl, the Hitler example she brought to the table is far more interesting than the Axl case in terms of the extensive documents and material that have been generated around Hitler's controversial persona.

In fact, I think @marlenaire herself may have found the right word to describe what she's doing and that is profiling. Which is not the same as trying to diagnose someone you have not met but actually someone you know nothing about. This is usually done in justice environment and police, like when you build a profile of a suspected criminal.

So she may want to change her wording to profiling and maybe that'd fit better and make people less upset about the whole thing.

Just my 2cnts 

[alfierose]

2 minutes ago, killuridols said:

Yo' Alfie, if this is about the Hitler video I posted please let me clarify that I was not laughing at her but WITH her about the whole thing. 

While I don't agree at all with the online "diagnosing" @marlenaire is trying to do of Axl, the Hitler example she brought to the table is far more interesting than the Axl case in terms of the extensive documents and material that have been generated around Hitler's controversial persona.

In fact, I think @marlenaire herself may have found the right word to describe what she's doing and that is profiling. Which is not the same as trying to diagnose someone you have not met but actually someone you know nothing about. This is usually done in justice environment and police, like when you build a profile of a suspected criminal.

So she may want to change her wording to profiling and maybe that'd fit better and make people less upset about the whole thing.

Just my 2cnts 

No it wasn't in relation to that. 

Profiling is a good choice of word, I actually agree that Axl has some narcissistic traits (he is a rockstar after all!) I don't know if that qualifies as a diagnosis though. Personally I think a case could equally be argued for Borderline Personality Disorder too but we don't really have the personal knowledge to do more than make assumptions. It's been debated a fair bit though for many years on this forum.

[SerenityScorp]

36 minutes ago, alfierose said:

Hey everyone

I directed @marlenaire to this thread as it seems like she joined up to discuss various aspects of Axl's past. Please can we debate without troll hunting/sarcastic emojis and memes, it's not that long ago a number of you were complaining about newcomers not being given a bit of understanding whilst they get to grips with the dynamics of this thread.

However @marlenaire please understand that people on this thread and forum tend to argue quite robustly and it isn't personal to you. We do not allow personal attacks or insults here but reading through I think everyone has been civil in their disagreement.

You make some interesting points for debate although I don't think it's possible to state Axl has a specific disorder even if traits are evident. I hope you stay around and get to know some of the posters here because debating will become easier with time.

I didnt intended dat meme for specific person  N'It wasnt sarcastic meme

Edited April 1, 2017 by SerenityScorp

[alfierose]

Just now, SerenityScorp said:

I didnt intended dat meme for specific person 

Fair enough. I think it could have been perceived that way though.

[SerenityScorp]

1 minute ago, alfierose said:

Fair enough. I think it could have been perceived that way though.

 

[Darkenchantress]

1 hour ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Yeah, I found the whole model thing much more disrespectful than the thought of maybe having to turn my t shirt inside out. 

The models being front row, blocking my view and looking at us like we were shit was a serious low point. Absolutely disgusting way to treat your fans, imo. 

Holy shit, that happened for real? Just when you think they couldn't get any more lame... 

2 hours ago, Kris_1989 said:

 

I've been called out by a band member and believe me it fucking sucks. But I never once turned around and acted like he should've filtered what he said because I've devoted 20 years to the guy. That sense of entitlement is just... I fucked up, he called me out, I apologized that was the end of it.

 

Ah but you saw, it turned out great, he loves us anyways and even let the whole world to know with his self-destructing tweet. 

[Zoot]

13 minutes ago, Darkenchantress said:

Ah but you saw, it turned out great, he loves us anyways and even let the whole world to know with his self-destructing tweet. 

Eh... I still think he might have a slight problem with me but that's ok. I did my best to make up for it and that's all I can do. At least I didn't ruin anything for you guys. That's what I was mainly worried about.

[SerenityScorp]

5 minutes ago, Kris_1989 said:

Eh... I still think he might have a slight problem with me but that's ok. I did my best to make up for it and that's all I can do. At least I didn't ruin anything for you guys. That's what I was mainly worried about.

Well He probably saw the post about tht You tube incident on the coven 

[Darkenchantress]

11 minutes ago, Kris_1989 said:

Eh... I still think he might have a slight problem with me but that's ok. I did my best to make up for it and that's all I can do. At least I didn't ruin anything for you guys. That's what I was mainly worried about.

Awww Nah, pretty sure it was just the heat of the moment and he doesn't hold a grudge against you for that. Come on, love, I know my husband. 

Edited April 1, 2017 by Darkenchantress

[MillionsOfSpiders]

39 minutes ago, Darkenchantress said:

Holy shit, that happened for real? Just when you think they couldn't get any more lame... 

Ah but you saw, it turned out great, he loves us anyways and even let the whole world to know with his self-destructing tweet. 

Yes, it really happened  

They were in front of the barrier, not all the way along but enough to block many people's view. They weren't interested in the show, they were just busy partying in front of everybody and we were trying to see over them. To be honest I was more disappointed in this than Axl being so late that half the venue/s went home. Which was also really bad. 

The UK fan base rightfully felt totally pissed off by it all and it was another huge negative thing for Axl here, totally his own doing and well deserved. I've seen other UK posters on here who went to the same shows as me say the same things. 

It was so bad that Bumblefoot posted on another forum about it trying to deny any of the band wanted the models at the show, that's it's the promoters who brought them in. He tried to reach out, but damage done. 

It makes me think that kind of shit is what he means in his latest interview when he said he wouldn't go to see GnR because he's seen too much and knows what goes on backstage. 

[Zoot]

12 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

It was so bad that Bumblefoot posted on another forum about it trying to deny any of the band wanted the models at the show, that's it's the promoters who brought them in. He tried to reach out, but damage done. 

That could actually be a possibility. With social media being such a booming business now a lot of influencers/models are paid to attend concerts and events. It's cheap advertising for the band/venue but usually the bands don't know anything about it until after the fact. Jingle Ball last year paid 30 girls (and a couple dudes) 10-15k each to attend the concert. Usually they will have some sort of agreement that they have to attend the concert, after party and post about it on some form of social media (snapchat, instagram, twitter...) as part of the deal. Walking talking billboards basically.

There's no way to know for sure if that's what's going on with GNR but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Edited April 1, 2017 by Kris_1989

[MillionsOfSpiders]

15 minutes ago, Kris_1989 said:

That could actually be a possibility. With social media being such a booming business now a lot of influencers/models are paid to attend concerts and events. It's cheap advertising for the band/venue but usually the bands don't know anything about it until after the fact. Jingle Ball last year paid 30 girls (and a couple dudes) 10-15k each to attend the concert. Usually they will have some sort of agreement that they have to attend the concert, after party and post about it on some form of social media (snapchat, instagram, twitter...) as part of the deal. Walking talking billboards basically.

There's no way to know for sure if that's what's going on with GNR but I wouldn't be surprised if it was.

Well something made Bumblefoot so upset he had to post about it, of course none of us chose to believe what he said 

http://www.blabbermouth.net/news/guns-n-roses-guitarist-bumblefoot-i-have-nothing-to-do-with-requesting-models-for-gigs/

The bottom part is what he said. He's a really great guy, and a great guitar player 

Maybe I should feel a little bit better about that whole thing then, thanks for your perspective @Kris_1989 I just wish they hadn't put them directly in front of fans who had queued for ages to be at the front. 

[Frey]

Jeeez, you leave for a couple of days and you come back to this

 

12 hours ago, killuridols said:

Not sure I'm the right person because I don't agree with any of this "diagnosing" online of someone we never met or talked to before, not only that, never talked or will talk about his personal issues.

Are you studying psychology?

Hard to believe someone in the field would create theories and diagnose a celebrity just by using interviews and at the same time try to be serious. Please don't get offended, but there's something called ethics

As for your questions, I can't give you straight answers because most of your questions have roots in false premises and assumptions you make a priori, therefore, all the conclusions for your theories will be invalid.

11 hours ago, stella said:

If you are studying psych, you know that you're making hypotheses, not theories, right? Scientific theories are actually things that have been verified through extensive first-hand (not distance) experimentation and observation. Like the theory of evolution. Hypotheses are speculative guesses that have not actually been studied.

I really don't think it's right to make an armchair psychiatric diagnosis of someone this way. As I'm sure you know, many, many disorders and syndromes contain elements of anxiety, depression, phobias, etc. and those things also stand alone in the DSM. And as @MillionsOfSpiders mentioned, what you're postulating has never even been speculated by the people who actually know Axl.

The only reason I'm okay with saying Axl is an introvert and has had trauma is because HE has said those things - he's told everyone, and I have no reason to disbelieve someone's assessment of themselves.
 

11 hours ago, stella said:

Alan Niven has an axe to grind against Axl, and has for a long time. In addition, he's not able to armchair diagnose Axl either. Plenty of people use the word "narcissist" without referring to the actual disorder. 

Plus...you say you have been studying his case. Really? How much time have you spent with him? How many hours? How many of his psych evals have you personally read? What kind of diagnostic procedures have you done? The answer would probably be zero, because if you were his doctor you'd be bound by HIPAA and patient confidentiality laws.

Have you ever even met the man? If you haven't and you're not his clinician, you don't have the information to diagnose him with anything - and it's IMHO not okay to try to do so from reading media reports.

I'm sorry to sound bitchy with this, especially since you are new here, but I think it's super uncool to try to diagnose someone you don't even with a psych condition. We bullshit about lots of things here and certainly speculate, but I think there's a line in the sand with trying to authoritatively make a diagnosis that someone has a "very serious" psych condition.

...

Actually? I do.

1. Real psychologists and psychiatrists would NEVER come into a public forum and disclose someone's diagnosis or clinical information, if they actually knew it firsthand. it's a breach of professional ethics and a HIPAA violation.
2. Real psych professionals know it is unethical and dangerous to "diagnose" a patient they have never seen. It opens them up to liability - and they can't, because they have not directly and personally evaluated the patient. That goes for all doctors, by the way. And even if another doctor has diagnosed their patient they will want to see the clinical evidence and progress notes and sometimes repeat the tests and do their own evaluation.

You've never met the man, much less treated him or evaluated him firsthand. You therefore can't give him a Dx. It's that simple.

10 hours ago, stella said:

I don't think anyone here thinks you're a mental health professional or clinician, don't worry about that. Everything you've said shows that you are not.

Nobody called you stupid.

You don't seem to understand, though: if you are not the man's personal health provider, YOU DON'T GET TO DIAGNOSE HIM, nor do you get to walk around declaring you know definitively what his Dx is. It doesn't matter if you are "into psychology." Hey, I am into nuclear physics, but they aren't going to let me run the Hadron Collider.

Yes, people are vocally disagreeing, but perhaps that is because they take objection to what you are saying. It doesn't mean we're trying to beat you up or anything. Jut beating up your statements. Also, since this is a message board people can and do disagree. Lord knows I've had my arguments here and have had some pretty hardcore debates, LOL.

...

I'm going to agree with this. I didn't like some of the words he used and it was a very, very harsh comment, but on the other hand, after reading so much bullshit about himself for so long, it's kind of reasonable that he would have eventually said something. And the person to whom he spoke, IIRC, was someone who had pissed off a lot of people here. I think that was one reason there wasn't more backlash...people were kind of glad that particular poster got told off.

All of this, 100%.

Thanks for saving me the typing, ladies.

 

14 hours ago, Jane M. said:

Hello @marlenaire and welcome!

I don't have answers for you but maybe @Frey might have some. 

13 hours ago, Andy14 said:

Yes, @Frey, this is the right task for you 

Why me? This is another topic I don't particularly feel like discussing ever again and I only know marginally more about Erin than the average person does and I don't know shit about Stephanie. @killuridols is the expert on this one.

@marlenaire You might wanna work on how you express your views. Stating your opinions and thoughts as facts is bound to piss people off. And how are people supposed to answer your questions if your questions are based on false premises, as killuridols said?

There is no freaking Erin vs. Steph war. Some people like Erin, some like Steph. That's it, though Erin is far more well-liked by most people for various reasons. And about the Instagram incident, as was already mentioned, that was 8 months ago, so therefore discussed in the old thread. I also don't see what's not to get about Erin disliking Steph for subpoenaing her in her court case. Would you want to get dragged back against your will into something you're trying to move on from? If you really care so much about this topic, I suggest you search the old thread for key words like "subpoena", "license plate", "mac truck", "Brandt" etc. and you should find all the answers you are seeking.

(Nope, haven't indexed this mess yet).

 

--------------------------

About Slash shirt gate, I agree with @killuridols about Axl's word choices being absolutely awful. Lesbian, cunt, bitch, "ho defenders and bitch bois" (LOL), c'mon. And in 2010 no less. Certainly doesn't paint a nice picture.

BUT I have read through all of the old shit that is still around, and I have to agree with @MillionsOfSpiders and others who have said that people were absolutely nasty to Axl, not just in general while talking amongst themselves in threads but even directly to his face when quoting him and so on. And Madison was absolutely obnoxious too. Was it right of Axl to attack her using gendered, misogynist, homophobic language? No, of course not. But there is some merit to keeping this in mind:

3 hours ago, stella said:

So I don't think it was just shirt-gate. I think, as others have said, it might have been more about anger that built up over time.

I am not going to excuse the objectionable words - 'lesbian' should never be used as a slur. But I also wonder how it has to be if you're a public figure and day in and day out, you're getting bashed left right and center, even on a site where people are supposed to be your fans. They always tell famous people, authors, writers, etc. not to Google themselves because it will make them upset - I would guess that those negative comments stay with you no matter how thick-skinned you are. And I would guess that it might be very, very hard not to reply with a hearty "fuck you" to people who are being cruel.

At the end of the day, Axl is a human being and a particularly sensitive one at that. He even admitted on multiple occasions that he's very bothered by what people say about him (most recently in 2006 or 2010 in some radio interview I think) and always has been (remember the media contracts). It's no surprise he eventually exploded after probably feeling sick about this for a long time. He should have gone differently about it, but meh, it's Axl. Never gone the way he should have gone about anything.

What it comes down to I think, is that some people's expectations of guys like Axl or Slash are too high when it comes to stuff like this (like yours for example @killuridols ). They're not that smart (or let's call it educated) on these issues. It's like when Slash supports the "No H8" campagne and the Women's March, but then he turns around and calls people hooray for tolerance!s or gay (as a negative discriptor) and posts hundreds of derogatory, sexist pictures of women on his Insta account. I'm pretty sure Axl and Slash aren't particularly homophobic or misogynist these days (not more so than the average guy) and they might even think of themselves as holding very liberal attitudes on these subjects, but they just don't get what you guys are complaining about, they don't get the bigger picture. Duff seems to have some understanding of these issues, but Slash, Axl and Steven? Nope. (Can't speak for Izzy because no one fucking know anything about Izzy these days).

 

3 hours ago, killuridols said:

IMO, the Slash topic has always been a sore spot for him and his rage against Madison had nothing to do with the t-shirt gate per se, or how she was treating the fans in an online forum (lol, never heard such a ridiculous reason before... Axl, the guy who rather not have a website ever in his life, and shut down his own official forum in 1999, all of a sudden gives a fuck about a fan forum ) but with the fact that she was messing around with the object of his bad obsession for two long decades.

His rage, hatred an raw emotions towards Slash were being publicly exposed in a time when he was still trying to demostrate the world that he could do without Slash and the old Guns and give his 'Chinese Democracy' a chance.

That's a very Slaxl-ish way of looking at things But certainly a possibility. And I agree, that aspect probably played a role in all of this.

 

4 hours ago, BorderlineCrazy said:

Didn't know that part. Like mother, like son (?) 

4 hours ago, Lio said:

No matter what Axl thinks,  I don't think it's impossible that he didn't know someone in TB asking security to ban Slash shirts. In fact, that wouldn't surprise me in the least. They've done more questionable things to 'protect' Axl.

I think I already indexed Beta's nasty PMs, if you want to read up on them.

And I think what @Lio said here is the most likely explanation for T-shirt gate: TB once again acting without Axl's knowledge. Like they always do to "protect" him from things they don't want him to know about

 

 

 

 

 

 

[beautifulanddamned]

2 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Yes, it really happened  

They were in front of the barrier, not all the way along but enough to block many people's view. They weren't interested in the show, they were just busy partying in front of everybody and we were trying to see over them. To be honest I was more disappointed in this than Axl being so late that half the venue/s went home. Which was also really bad. 

The UK fan base rightfully felt totally pissed off by it all and it was another huge negative thing for Axl here, totally his own doing and well deserved. I've seen other UK posters on here who went to the same shows as me say the same things. 

It was so bad that Bumblefoot posted on another forum about it trying to deny any of the band wanted the models at the show, that's it's the promoters who brought them in. He tried to reach out, but damage done. 

It makes me think that kind of shit is what he means in his latest interview when he said he wouldn't go to see GnR because he's seen too much and knows what goes on backstage. 

I had dinner with a friend recently who worked for a modeling agency (management side) in Los Angeles for the last ten years. We got on the subject of bands paying to have models at their gigs and she had some interesting stuff to say about it. Essentially it is a way for promoters/management to "vet" the girls that go backstage and circumvent the traditional "groupie scene." The biggest thing is that the models they send are 18+. That's why they aren't allowed +1's. I asked if it didn't stink for the band to be surrounded by girls who didn't really care about the music and she laughed and said "only if they get caught." As long as the girls are young and hot it doesn't matter and they get to put a bunch of good lookin' girls on the jumbo-tron and have them prominently displayed in their videos. And it works well for management because they would much rather have girls there that are enjoying a free concert and free booze and maybe getting a picture with an old crusty rockstar than a girl that was going to create a scene in any way for the band or for management. They want the girls to have an "above it all" attitude because it keeps the, uh, interaction with the band a little more casual. The girls know that they are there because of their place of business and their reputations are on the line. Most times they have signed NDA's. And the models get a little professional boost by being seen with the band. Apparently, it happens primarily with older bands because they are both more corporatized, and used to having a backstage "scene." I'm still side-eyeing the arrangement but it's tidy little transaction. Meant to do away with this grossness:

Or any grossness that happened to be 16 years old.

[Andy14]

I keep repeating "I won't make fun of Axl".....but it doesn't work 

[StrangerInThisTown]

I think this is the most appropriate thread for this on this forum, really wanted to post this hilarious fail from facebook, one of those fake t shirt advertisements sites who just photoshop their shit on stars. Could they possibly have failed any more?

[killuridols]

2 hours ago, Frey said:

What it comes down to I think, is that some people's expectations of guys like Axl or Slash are too high when it comes to stuff like this (like yours for example @killuridols ). They're not that smart (or let's call it educated) on these issues. It's like when Slash supports the "No H8" campagne and the Women's March, but then he turns around and calls people hooray for tolerance!s or gay (as a negative discriptor) and posts hundreds of derogatory, sexist pictures of women on his Insta account. I'm pretty sure Axl and Slash aren't particularly homophobic or misogynist these days (not more so than the average guy) and they might even think of themselves as holding very liberal attitudes on these subjects, but they just don't get what you guys are complaining about, they don't get the bigger picture. Duff seems to have some understanding of these issues, but Slash, Axl and Steven? Nope. (Can't speak for Izzy because no one fucking know anything about Izzy these days).

Ahhhhh..... it could be that my expectations are too high but then when I think about it again, I think... Axl and Slash are not like my 75 years old aunt who lives in a small town and hardly ever gets out of it.

These guys, though in their 50s, have traveled the whole world several times. Traveling, interacting and getting to know other cultures, other people opens your mind even if you don't want to be open about new things.

They also work in entertainment, a field where thousands of people with different sexual preference work and interact. It'd be impossible to say Axl and Slash have not met gay people who are colleagues or employees or assistants, etc. You can be as old fashioned as you want to be but changes in society, at some point, also get to those who resist and if you resist too much then you're definitely a rookie and an asshole.

Regarding women, Axl has Beta, Vanessa, his sister... Doesn't he, at least, think of them? Isn't he grateful to these women in his life who have helped him when he was biting the dust? Not sure my expectations are too high when I'm asking that he just minds a bit more what he's saying if he's got some female in his life that he cares about. Now there's also Natalia and Maya Rose in his family. Come on, adult man, grow up and get rid of your misogyny for once and for all!

Duff is not like them because he has a lot of respect for his wife of 23 years and the daughters she gave him. Duff loves his children too much and thinks of, cares about them as females and human beings. He is in a complete different place than Axl. He's matured and evolved.

3 hours ago, Frey said:

That's a very Slaxl-ish way of looking at things But certainly a possibility. And I agree, that aspect probably played a role in all of this.

You're the only person who figured this out so far 

Yes, I did mean it that way but not because I want to make fun of it. I do really believe in this theory because I had detected a pattern with other people close to the band. Slash, the one who cannot be mentioned, the "devil", the "cancer", was a deep wound in Axl's body and touching the topic with him (or his camp) I think it literally hurt him (knowing how sensitive he's about everything). 

Even more so, I think he was standing in same place as Slash when it came to saying shit about each other. Like Slash defended Axl from Scott Weiland by telling him something like "you don't get to badmouth Axl because you don't know him and never worked with him. I did, I have a right to say shit about him, you don't." Axl was acting the same way with Madison and everybody else who wanted to butt into his business with Slash.

It was like a territorial thing where he drew the boundaries of his battle and who could give an opinion and who couldn't. He wanted the fans out of it and according to him "truth would come out one day". We are still waiting for it but that's another story

 

 

 

[MillionsOfSpiders]

5 hours ago, Andy14 said:

I keep repeating "I won't make fun of Axl".....but it doesn't work 

Lol. 

I wonder if Axl found Jim Morrison out there in the desert ? 

[money honey]

22 hours ago, alfierose said:

Her ultimate goal was Axl but the closest she got was getting him to autograph her genitals (possibly whilst having sex with Baz) I think she was upset because the penmanship rubbed off.

 

19 hours ago, stella said:

But you aren't putting it forward as your opinion. You came in here and declared his Dx as a fact, and that it was "very serious." Think for a second, without getting mad...how would you feel if someone you didn't know made a post like that about you?

 

I'm so happy to come back after a few days and see people on here defending Axl from dodgy conclusions based on flimsy arguments. Shows that if you want to come on here and start dissing our band straight away you better have good evidence to back it up. 

12 hours ago, stella said:

I think it has to be really tricky for celebs to know how and when to interact with fans online. Something like an Instagram or Twitter where they post something and don't check the comments seem like it might be best.

Yes. Axl follows zero accounts on Twitter. One-way communication with fans. I really think that's a good way for him to use social media without getting hurt, since he seems to be so sensitive. Whoever advised him to use Twitter that way knew him very well had his best interests at heart, IMO.

11 hours ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Yeah, I found the whole model thing much more disrespectful than the thought of maybe having to turn my t shirt inside out. 

The models being front row, blocking my view and looking at us like we were shit was a serious low point. Absolutely disgusting way to treat your fans, imo. 

That's some sickening shit. I so hope the band knew nothing about it in advance?! 

Ooh that gives me an idea for hunting tracking down the band in Dublin... start following all the Irish models on soc media and keep an eye on their posts the night of the gig??! @killuridols what do you think?!

Edited April 1, 2017 by money honey

[MillionsOfSpiders]

8 minutes ago, money honey said:

 

I'm so happy to come back after a few days and see people on here defending Axl from dodgy conclusions based on flimsy arguments. Shows that if you want to come on here and start dissing our band straight away you better have good evidence to back it up. 

Yes. Axl follows zero accounts on Twitter. One-way communication with fans. I really think that's a good way for him to use social media without getting hurt, since he seems to be so sensitive. Whoever advised him to use Twitter that way knew him very well had his best interests at heart, IMO.

That's some sickening shit. I so hope the band knew nothing about it in advance?! 

Models went to the shows in the US last year and were given the VIP treatment, so I suspect it's just something they do to make Axl happy 

As long as they're not in my road again, I don't care about them being a bunch of skanks for the money.  

[money honey]

3 minutes ago, MillionsOfSpiders said:

Models went to the shows in the US last year and were given the VIP treatment, so I suspect it's just something they do to make Axl happy 

As long as they're not in my road again, I don't care about them being a bunch of skanks for the money.  

Doesn't say much for him having matured or got over his sexist attitudes as someone suggested earlier. I mean the guy is 55?! (This is the voice of someone having their hopes crushed of Axl maturing to the point where he renounces misogyny, rock star behaviour etc. and decides to settle down with a nice sensible Irish fan .)

[MillionsOfSpiders]

1 hour ago, money honey said:

Doesn't say much for him having matured or got over his sexist attitudes as someone suggested earlier. I mean the guy is 55?! (This is the voice of someone having their hopes crushed of Axl maturing to the point where he renounces misogyny, rock star behaviour etc. and decides to settle down with a nice sensible Irish fan .)

Tut tut - he's not allowed any Irish, only Brazil 

[killuridols]

4 hours ago, money honey said:

Ooh that gives me an idea for hunting tracking down the band in Dublin... start following all the Irish models on soc media and keep an eye on their posts the night of the gig??! @killuridols what do you think?!

[Blackstar]

13 hours ago, Frey said:

Jeeez, you leave for a couple of days and you come back to this

Same here. Last night there wasn't much going on in the thread, and when I logged in today I saw there were 5-6 pages to catch up with, wondering what happened. Then I went through the pages and... Thanks for summing/wrapping it up.

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@marlenaire, welcome to the thread, but I have to agree with what @stella, @Rocketqueen76, @MillionsOfSpiders, @killuridols, @Frey and others said in regards to "diagnosing"/profiling someone you don't know. In addition to all that: even in "armchair diagnosis" terms (i.e. "I've read some psychology books and some interviews"), Axl doesn't fit in the narcissist profile (I'm talking about the disorder, because, as @stella pointed out, people use this word in everyday language to simply describe a self-centered person - and this can apply to many rockstars, mainly singers). For example, you mentioned that one of the main characteristics of a narcissist is pathological lying. Axl hasn't shown any signs of this trait and no one who knows him has accused him of it; on the contrary, Slash has said that Axl is the most honest person he's ever known (in the sense that he believes what he says as being the truth) and Duff has said that Axl just can't lie. There's a big difference between being delusional about some things and being a pathological liar.

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A note on diagnosing/profiling historical figures: it can be very interesting and fascinating and I like this kind of shit, but, apart from it being problematic and disputable by default as it's done posthumously, it can also be misleading when it's used as a prominent "tool" for interpreting complicated historical events, thus overestimating the role of personality in history. Nazism, the Holocaust and WWII didn't happen because of Hitler's potential mental disorders, drug use or whatever.

10 hours ago, killuridols said:

Ahhhhh..... it could be that my expectations are too high but then when I think about it again, I think... Axl and Slash are not like my 75 years old aunt who lives in a small town and hardly ever gets out of it.

These guys, though in their 50s, have traveled the whole world several times. Traveling, interacting and getting to know other cultures, other people opens your mind even if you don't want to be open about new things.

They also work in entertainment, a field where thousands of people with different sexual preference work and interact. It'd be impossible to say Axl and Slash have not met gay people who are colleagues or employees or assistants, etc. You can be as old fashioned as you want to be but changes in society, at some point, also get to those who resist and if you resist too much then you're definitely a rookie and an asshole.

Regarding women, Axl has Beta, Vanessa, his sister... Doesn't he, at least, think of them? Isn't he grateful to these women in his life who have helped him when he was biting the dust? Not sure my expectations are too high when I'm asking that he just minds a bit more what he's saying if he's got some female in his life that he cares about. Now there's also Natalia and Maya Rose in his family. Come on, adult man, grow up and get rid of your misogyny for once and for all!

Duff is not like them because he has a lot of respect for his wife of 23 years and the daughters she gave him. Duff loves his children too much and thinks of, cares about them as females and human beings. He is in a complete different place than Axl. He's matured and evolved.

Of course they've met a lot of people, including gay people. They had even back in the day, but still they, especially Axl, didn't get these things.

As someone aptly pointed out in another thread, Axl handed OIAM to the label knowing that David Geffen was gay and most likely not minding it at all; similarly he didn't mind Elton John and Freddie Mercury (both of whom he openly admired) being gay, while at the same time he insisted on releasing that song. He didn't seem to understand that the song would be offensive and hurtful to whole groups of people (including people he liked and admired) as well as that if you have a problem with specific people, you don't use derogatory words related to the color of their skin and sexual orientation as insults.

He also didn't seem to get the importance of context and perspective in regards to using those words. Even in the 80s, the "n" word wasn't acceptable when coming from a white person that way; John Lennon, Patti Smith and others had used it in their songs, but in a completely different context than Axl did (although nowadays even those songs could be considered offensive - wrongly imo), and hip hop artists have used it from a totally different perspective. "F*ggot" was widely used as a common insult back then or even as a joke (Axl had used it jokingly about himself and the band, when, in one of the 1987 shows, he introduced WTTJ as "a cover song written by a bunch of f*ggots called Guns N' Roses", although he didn't like it when people called him that); but again, and even though there was still prejudice and a lot of confusion/misinformation about AIDS, it wasn't acceptable coming from a straight man in that context.

I have speculated about what was behind Axl's behavior in other cases, but the OIAM story is the one of two things that I still can't come up with an explanation for (the other is the lawsuit against Stephanie). What puzzles me is not that he wrote it, but the fact that he thought he could get away with it and didn't expect such reaction (had he expected it, he would have dealt with it differently). That was plain stupid; there was a debate in the old thread about the level of his intelligence, but I think we all agree that he's not stupid. Could he have been so delusional to believe that the last verse would be enough for the public to understand what was in his head (which he didn't see as wrong at the time)? I don't know... 

As for now, apart from what @Frey said about having too high expectations from these guys, there's still sexism in the entertainment world and  probably many of the people Axl and Slash interact with more often are of the same mentality as them (Baz is an example). So maybe they really don't get that today is not "okay" to use derogatory words or imagery related to gender/sexual orientation as a common insult or a joke; or maybe they get it, but they don't care to "adjust" seeing it as pc bullshit.

I agree that Duff is more mature and aware of these things. However, when asked how he felt about It's So Easy and the line "turn around bitch ..." now that he had teenage daughters and how he'd explain it to them, he answered "it's only rock 'n' roll and there's nothing to apologize for" or something like that (and it would have been hypocritical and inconsistent of him to say otherwise, since he's been playing this song not only with GnR, but also with VR and his solo projects). He seems to make exceptions when it comes to songs.

It's a distinction I agree with though: saying something in a song, i.e. expressing oneself through art, is different than saying the same in social media, in an interview or during an altercation; even for a song like OIAM, what Axl said at some point along the lines of "I used this song as a means to express my feelings at a certain time - I don't feel this way now so it doesn't represent me anymore" is something I can accept (although it doesn't change the fact that he once felt that way).

 

 

 

Edited April 2, 2017 by Blackstar
additions and corrections