Can we live in a world were both Izzy and Richard get the respect they deserve?

[bikka]

4 hours ago, Order of Nine said:

I have respect for Fortus as a performer and as a guitarist. He is clearly someone who has studied various styles of music and can more then hold his own with a variety of technical aspects, fingerpicking, sweeping, hybrid, ect.

...

So it's up to Fortus to prove himself as a classic song writer. Until then I give respect only where respect is due. Both Izzy and Fortus have things they need to do, but it's obvious to me who is more determined and focused. Fortus. 

 

I honestly don't understand why on this board so many people make technical skill equal to being a good guitarist. I'm pretty sure my half decent computer with a good synthesizing software can make guitar tones that - with regard to technical perfection - would make Fortus hide under a rock. And in any guitar style you can imagine. Does it make my computer the best guitarist in the world?

Compare that with, for example, piano players. EVERY single pianist on renowned piano competitions has to be technically perfect. And yet technical proficiency, mastering of the instrument is just the entry requirement. The winner is the one who puts the most feel into playing, who makes the piece his/her own even though each one of them plays the same notes.

I don't hate Fortus, he seems a nice guy. He is a technically proficient guitar player. But Izzy surpasses him both as a songwriter AND a rythm player by miles. Fortus' technical skill actually disturbs the quality of his performance. Instead of feeling the song and enhancing it he stomps all over it without much recognition of his role as rythm player. He destroys all the interplays that were there on the originals between lead and rythm. Just put on Ghost to hear how this should work. The greatest skill of Izzy as a rythm player was that he had enough "gelling" with Slash to push him to the limits, but at the same time never tried to outdo or even match his playing. And please don't tell me how Fortus would be a great second lead in GNR. GNR doesn't need another lead player. Not only he could never match Slash's feel but adding more lead parts is like adding too many toppings to a pizza - at the end it has so many tastes that it doesn't taste of anything.

[EvanG]

17 minutes ago, bikka said:

I honestly don't understand why on this board so many people make technical skill equal to being a good guitarist.

Good means of a high quality, standard, or level.

There you go, that's exactly what Fortus is. He's a good guitarist. Listen, I totally agree with what you're saying, playing an instrument is not just about technical skills. I'd rather listen to Slash than to Buckethead or Fortus, who are technically better than Slash... so I'm with you. But it's not that hard to understand why people consider a very technical player as good, because that's the right definition as well.

Edited January 18, 2018 by EvanG

[Sosso]

Buckethead has a lot of feel in his guitar playing

[bucketfoot]

6 hours ago, Sunset Boulevard said:

Nowadays, Izzy can't even play the songs he wrote 30 years ago.

That's where the problem is. The dude can't play.

Would you honnesly put him in a stadium in front of 60,000 fans for a show? Are you serious? He would be a total DISASTER! 

"Not reliable" = NOT GOOD ENOUGH in the GN'R world. Stop finding excuses. He is just NOT good enough to get the job.

The truth hurts... sorry for that...

What a shockingly bad post that is, fella. Just complete and utter shite.

[WhazUp]

6 hours ago, Nikki_Sixx said:

I respect GNR.

Izzy was in GNR.

Fortus is not in GNR.

Fortus is not in your preferred lineup of GNR, but its still GNR.  

[double talkin jive mfkr]

3 hours ago, Order of Nine said:

And look who's had the last laugh with all that wasted piss. 

touché it does pay to be a dick sometimes doesn't it over doing what's best for the music 

look how far away he got from this - izzy says no because him and axl are in complete unison over the vision 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by double talkin jive mfkr

[WhazUp]

Izzy is Izzy, the songwriter and the huge reason why GNR even exists and is as legendary as they are.  Great rhythm guitarist, great songwriter, and just awesome. 

Fortus gets a lot of respect from me too though.  First, as a touring musician in order to perform to that many people in a rock band night after night and deliver consistency, it takes a lot of work and discipline and passion just as a guitar player and showman.  And at the shows I was at he had a good balance of when to stay out of the spotlight but also when to have cool moments when it was his time to shine - I respect him

[Order of Nine]

23 minutes ago, double talkin jive mfkr said:

touché it does pay to be a dick sometimes doesn't it over doing what's best for the music 

look how far away he got from this - izzy says no because him and axl are in complete unison over the vision 

 

 

I see your perspective. But from mine Axl is always wanting to evolve and progress, Izzy is that type of guy and player who is in a time capsule preserved like an artifact. He's great at what he does but very one dimensional. I'm sure getting huge got into thier heads to one degree or another. But musically I still think Axl and his song writing are above the others solo releases. Izzy also never wanted to play in front of more then a few thousand people, according to some old interviews. People can't come to terms with that original band, it's just a moment in time and was not going to last. Izzy has released the music he's wanted to release, it's not anything that's contrived or trying to be "popular" so another angle I look at is ok why cry about "splitting the loot equally" now if you've maintained a music career since 93 without worrying about that as a sole priority? It's just off putting to me. I know they all love the money that's rolling in, but to leave, and then try to use that as leverage is just beat to me. 

[Tom2112]

On 1/17/2018 at 4:23 PM, default_ said:

Until they release any new material... I dont think so and even if they do and it features Richard's material and it sounds good, he'll still be bashed because he is not Izzy or wasnt there in the 80s/90s. 

I dont think he'll ever be respected by the die hards lol.

Izzy is the classic line up, he was 90% of the people on heres first introduction to the band, Richard can be in the band until they retire and he still won't ever be as loved as Izzy.  

I'm a die hard through and through though, and I full accept Richard as a member of GNR, just like I considered Matt and Gilby. I don't think holding that opinion is a slight on Izzy either, I fully appreciate and respect Izzy both as a guitar and songwriter, and know that what Izzy brought to the band is something that Richard cannot, which... is no slight on Richard either, it's just a fact that every musician plays differently and brings different things out of different musicians. 

 

[Order of Nine]

1 hour ago, bikka said:

I honestly don't understand why on this board so many people make technical skill equal to being a good guitarist. I'm pretty sure my half decent computer with a good synthesizing software can make guitar tones that - with regard to technical perfection - would make Fortus hide under a rock. And in any guitar style you can imagine. Does it make my computer the best guitarist in the world?

Compare that with, for example, piano players. EVERY single pianist on renowned piano competitions has to be technically perfect. And yet technical proficiency, mastering of the instrument is just the entry requirement. The winner is the one who puts the most feel into playing, who makes the piece his/her own even though each one of them plays the same notes.

I don't hate Fortus, he seems a nice guy. He is a technically proficient guitar player. But Izzy surpasses him both as a songwriter AND a rythm player by miles. Fortus' technical skill actually disturbs the quality of his performance. Instead of feeling the song and enhancing it he stomps all over it without much recognition of his role as rythm player. He destroys all the interplays that were there on the originals between lead and rythm. Just put on Ghost to hear how this should work. The greatest skill of Izzy as a rythm player was that he had enough "gelling" with Slash to push him to the limits, but at the same time never tried to outdo or even match his playing. And please don't tell me how Fortus would be a great second lead in GNR. GNR doesn't need another lead player. Not only he could never match Slash's feel but adding more lead parts is like adding too many toppings to a pizza - at the end it has so many tastes that it doesn't taste of anything.

I have no idea why you would take my stance about skill and give an analogy about a computer program that synthesis great guitar playing.. Please show me this software that can fool the world???

From my view being a guitarist/musician encompasses a vast range of abilities and skills that most have probably not even thought of. From ear training/note recognition, creativity and originality, knowledge of music, and yes technique. Without mastering technique you are limited to how you can express yourself as a musician. It would be like only learning how to use nouns in the English language and not using verbs when musicians limit themselves to certin things, either by preference or by style.

The "winner" of emotion/feeling is always subjective to the listener.. so as soon as you realize that the better you will be able to see the big picture. As for technical ability, this is a black and white matter and Fortus destroys Izzy in all of those categories. He's a studied player, roots, chicken picking, hybrid picking, and when playing in the pocket he's much more versatile then Izzy. As for your Slash comments, Slash has his own fingerprint regarding tone, phrasing, note choices, and his riffs are timeless. He's got more of a loose freeform style compared to Fortus who can play fast runs note for note the same way if he chooses. But if you compare the two from a technical standpoint Fortus is beyond slash and idc who hates me for saying that but it's the truth period. 

[skassi]

It should happen but I doubt it ever will, and furthermore, not having to have Izzy in the band does not disqualify anyone from being a die hard fan. 😒

Izzy was a better writer, IMO 👍

Richard is a far superior guitarist, IMO 👍

I don't care who writes what at this point but what I do want is new music that I can listen to. Period. 

[janrichmond]

8 minutes ago, Order of Nine said:

But if you compare the two from a technical standpoint Fortus is beyond slash and idc who hates me for saying that but it's the truth period. 

I don't think anyone thinks that Fortus isn't a great guitarist but he doesn't 'fit' as the rhythm guitarist. I think he would be great in any other band as lead but not GnR. Just IMO.

[Order of Nine]

Just now, janrichmond said:

I don't think anyone thinks that Fortus isn't a great guitarist but he doesn't 'fit' as the rhythm guitarist. I think he would be great in any other band as lead but not GnR. Just IMO.

I think he's the best fit since 93. Imho

[skassi]

1 minute ago, Order of Nine said:

I think he's the best fit since 93. Imho

Agreed! 100%!

[Tom2112]

21 hours ago, Tom-Ass said:

Exactly.... Totally different styles.. I prefer Slash's style to Shredders like Randy Rhoads.... 

Randy Rhoads is not a shredder. He definitely could shred, but his solos are melodic, structured, slow when they should be slow and fast when they need to be fast, not to forget excellent phrasing, bending and vibrato (he's the total package). To me a shredder is someone like current day Zakk Wylde, tasteless runs, saturated guitar sound, solos that are far too long, solos that are essentially very similar to each other, and horrendous phrasing. 

There's so many great examples of shitty shredders with no melodic sensibilities, that it kinda annoys me that fine very musical guitar players like EVH, Dime, Randy get thrown in with the batch. I'd put Dimebags solo in Floods, or Cemetary gates up against some of Slash's best most tasteful solos, I defy any heavy rock/metal fan to listen to either solo and not have their jaw on the floor, the solos are perfect for the music and played so well.

 

[double talkin jive mfkr]

22 minutes ago, Order of Nine said:

I have no idea why you would take my stance about skill and give an analogy about a computer program that synthesis great guitar playing.. Please show me this software that can fool the world???

From my view being a guitarist/musician encompasses a vast range of abilities and skills that most have probably not even thought of. From ear training/note recognition, creativity and originality, knowledge of music, and yes technique. Without mastering technique you are limited to how you can express yourself as a musician. It would be like only learning how to use nouns in the English language and not using verbs when musicians limit themselves to certin things, either by preference or by style.

The "winner" of emotion/feeling is always subjective to the listener.. so as soon as you realize that the better you will be able to see the big picture. As for technical ability, this is a black and white matter and Fortus destroys Izzy in all of those categories. He's a studied player, roots, chicken picking, hybrid picking, and when playing in the pocket he's much more versatile then Izzy. As for your Slash comments, Slash has his own fingerprint regarding tone, phrasing, note choices, and his riffs are timeless. He's got more of a loose freeform style compared to Fortus who can play fast runs note for note the same way if he chooses. But if you compare the two from a technical standpoint Fortus is beyond slash and idc who hates me for saying that but it's the truth period. 

doesn't touch him in songwriting bud 

[Order of Nine]

Just now, double talkin jive mfkr said:

doesn't touch him in songwriting bud 

And that's what I stated in my original post here, he has yet to prove that. That's for the next release to be judged upon. 

[janrichmond]

19 minutes ago, Order of Nine said:

I think he's the best fit since 93. Imho

I didn't follow the band after Slash leftSo you may be right

[Order of Nine]

8 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

I didn't follow the band after Slash leftSo you may be right

This place is hilarious!!!

It's amazing to me all the people who loaf on this board that hate the post 93 lineups and hate Chinese yet still come here. If I hated what had happened I wouldn't be here personally but it's just mind boggling to me that alot of people cling to one thing and never move past it.

[bucketfoot]

7 hours ago, Order of Nine said:

So it's up to Fortus to prove himself as a classic song writer.

I wouldn't be too hopeful of that judging by his previous. Harsh as it sounds there's nothing to suggest he has a top notch song in him, nothing whatsoever.

[janrichmond]

27 minutes ago, Order of Nine said:

This place is hilarious!!!

It's amazing to me all the people who loaf on this board that hate the post 93 lineups and hate Chinese yet still come here. If I hated what had happened I wouldn't be here personally but it's just mind boggling to me that alot of people cling to one thing and never move past it.

Get over yourself, i never said i hated post 93 i just didn't follow the band anymore. I never said i hated CD. I came here to discuss GnR and i don't 'loaf' this forum is for fans of all eras of the band and i happen to prefer the classic era. Perhaps you should stick to your conspiracy theories in the Anything Goes section.

[Order of Nine]

19 minutes ago, bucketfoot said:

I wouldn't be too hopeful of that judging by his previous. Harsh as it sounds there's nothing to suggest he has a top notch song in him, nothing whatsoever.

I hate about 90% of all the solo efforts for all the original guns members, just my opinion. And I hate the DD stuff too it's just corny cock rock to me. So yeah he's got alot of proving to do in that end. I can see that he has tenacity to stick around for so long with such minimal input on Chinese, he either knows something that we don't or he's a complete hack in the writing department. I don't think Axl would keep him around this long if he was a fraud and didn't think he could write. 

2 minutes ago, janrichmond said:

Get over yourself, i never said i hated post 93 i just didn't follow the band anymore. I never said i hated CD. I came here to discuss GnR and i don't 'loaf' this forum is for fans of all eras of the band and i happen to prefer the classic era. Perhaps you should stick to your conspiracy theories in the Anything Goes section.

Even more hilarious! 

[janrichmond]

Just now, Order of Nine said:

Even more hilarious! 

why?

[bucketfoot]

10 minutes ago, Order of Nine said:

I don't think Axl would keep him around this long if he was a fraud and didn't think he could write.

He's a session/touring musician, no more, no less. There's nothing wrong with that, he plays the songs well, is a nice guy and doesn't rock the boat. I wouldn't expect him to have many, if any, writing credits on a potential new album.

[Order of Nine]

2 minutes ago, bucketfoot said:

He's a session/touring musician, no more, no less. There's nothing wrong with that, he plays the songs well, is a nice guy and doesn't rock the boat. I wouldn't expect him to have many, if any, writing credits on a potential new album.

Signs definitely point to that I just think he's not sitting around all this time without a few songs locked in. For example, some of Bumbles stuff was clearly sub par then he ditched out, I'm sure the inevitable reunion may have been starting to bubble up too. But Fortus strikes me as someone who wouldn't waste his time on an endeavor that didn't reach the goal.