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When did Axl lose his musical and performing drive?

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2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Well that's good to hear.

do you mean you don't believe him or that you didn't know he said it?

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8 minutes ago, Rovim said:

do you mean you don't believe him or that you didn't know he said it?

I don't believe he was 100 % satisfied, at least not with the entire product. 

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1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

I don't believe he was 100 % satisfied, at least not with the entire product. 

well he wasn't, he said he was satisfied with how the music turned out, not the booklet for example.

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4 minutes ago, Rovim said:

well he wasn't, he said he was satisfied with how the music turned out, not the booklet for example.

Yeah, that was obvious.

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3 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

A related quote:

 

yeah it seems the 2 different approaches really contributed to the quality of the old Gn'R records. There is something pretty cool about how being so different was probably the key to their success and their downfall. They are in an interesting position right now imo: I think they're at a place in their professional relationship that could allow them to make an album they couldn't make before in a way.

Not since Appetite and Lies at least. They'll work together as a unit again and with the confidence their musical chemistry brings and maybe not wanting to let each other down and do justice to the Gn'R name, could be pretty cool if they get it right. I wish it happened sooner when they were in their 40's but better late than never. (if it happens)

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I was watching an old interview with Axl and Slash when the interviewer asked Axl about his new tattoo and Axl said 'dont rush into getting one, it took me about a year of thinking about it until I finally decided to go for it'!

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I think Axl's perception of what is good (and his idea of "perfection") often happen to be different than the fans' (and the public's) perception. The Lies version of You're Crazy is an example: while the majority of the fans thinks that Axl's performance is great, Axl thought he sucked.

But also his perception may change later, when something he was content with is not as well received as he believed it would by the public or by people he looks up to, and this comes down to his insecurity. Apparently he was pleased with Oh My God as it was at the time, since he agreed to give for the movie and he even issued a statement about it. But then, after it was poorly received for the most part, he retracted and said that the song was unfinished, wasn't ready for release and so on.

In regards to CD: A lot of fans (myself included - as far as the songs I like go, because for the rest it makes no difference) consider the Village versions to be superior than the ones in the final product in most cases. But maybe Axl thought they weren't good enough and they needed a different or more "something", more layers or this or that. Or maybe he was happy with them, but when he had an "authority" like Bob Ezrin tell him they weren't good, that made him try to "improve" them. When CD finally was released he may have been satisfied with how it came out, but we don't know how he sees it now. The way he joked about the "lots of layers" in the Globo interview may be an indication of some regret.

 

 

Edited by Blackstar
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1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

I think Axl's perception of what is good (and his idea of "perfection") often happen to be different than the fans' (and the public's) perception. The Lies version of You're Crazy is an example: while the majority of the fans thinks that Axl's performance is great, Axl thought he sucked.

But also his perception may change later, when something he was content with is not as well received as he believed it would by the public or by people he looks up to, and this comes down to his insecurity. Apparently he was pleased with Oh My God as it was at the time, since he agreed to give for the movie and he even issued a statement about it. But then, after it was poorly received for the most part, he retracted and said that the song was unfinished, wasn't ready for release and so on.

In regards to CD: A lot of fans (myself included - as far as the songs I like go, because for the rest it makes no difference) consider the Village versions to be superior than the ones in the final product in most cases. But maybe Axl thought they weren't good enough and they needed a different or more "something", more layers or this or that. Or maybe he was happy with them, but when he had an "authority" like Bob Ezrin tell him they weren't good, that made him try to "improve" them. When CD finally was released he may have been satisfied with how it came out, but we don't know how he sees it now. The way he joked about the "lots of layers" in the Globo interview may be an indication of some regret.

also he ended up not using the Brian May version of Catcher's guitar solo and I think it was because he didn't feel the reception of the leaked version was positive enough. He also changed Better's chorus lyrics and I remember before the album was released people mocked a line in it and said it was silly (now I know you know better, you know I know better) simplified that as well.

Tommy said he thought Axl cares too much about what other people think. Thing is: that comment he made in the Globo interview wasn't really a good indication to know what he feels about the amount of layers in the album imo but it could be. It's just that whole Queen thing. I guess we'll know for sure only if someone will ask him if it was too much or if another Gn'R album will be released in the future. Very likely that Bob Ezrin's feedback made him go back and tinker some more.

 

Edited by Rovim
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On 24/03/2020 at 2:01 PM, EvanG said:

You're right, I don't know him either, I merely base my opinion on his actions because that is all I can do.

If he was ''all about the money'' he must be quite unintelligent because he pissed away a lot of money through the years.

And if he isn't into it, or never really was, then it doesn't make much sense to me that he worked so hard on one single record and how he is running and singing his ass off on stage for more than 3 hours every show. I've seen enough musicians on stage phoning it in and rushing through the setlist to get off stage as fast as they can. This is not my impression of Axl.

he worked so hard on one single record

did he work hard or did he took a long time to do it? All the info we have says Axl basically never went to the studio, the musicians worked alone most of the time, there were loads of songs with no vocals (we jut got proof of that with the leaks) and a lot of time when stuff would be sent to Axl things would get stuck and stop moving, what led to a lot of players and producers to just abandon ship because they didnt want to sit on their asses for months and years waiting for Axl to make a move. My impression is that Axl must have spent no more than 5% of those 13 years actually working on the album.

 

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On 23/03/2020 at 1:49 PM, EvanG said:

If he was all about the money he would have toured and released so much more music through the years. I have no idea where this sentiment comes from that he's not ''into'' it.

the only way for axl to make money by releasing music would be releasing Guns n Roses music, like a live album from the Illusion era or whatever other recorded music by GNR. He coulda have made a lot of money from that kind of material but he obviously wouldnt do that because he wanted to separate himself as much as possible from anything related to GNR

if axl was to release his own music, meaning Chinese Democracy style music, lets say he releases three albums, one in 1997, one in 1999 and one in 2001.

what happens?

First one (1997) sells like hot cold water in the summer, because every GNR fan hardcore and casual will buy it. "Axl is back!" Now how many of these millions of people will actually enjoy listening to that kind of music or will ever listen again to that type of music after a few rotations? Well, we know how many! Its a very little and limited amount of people. How do we know that? Because thats exactly what happened with Chinese Democracy.

So that leads to the second album (1999). How many people will buy that? I would say about 10 to 20% tops of the people who bought the first (1997) album. Hardcore fans, die hards, people like us that spend time on forums...

Third album (2001) will have even less people buying and then you are not really making money when people are not buying albums, are you?

 

@Len Cnut put it best here

 

On 24/03/2020 at 6:23 AM, Len Cnut said:

See the going into hiding and not putting out a record for ages looks a lot like, and excuse me for being cynical here, a guy breaking up a band and then not wanting to put shit out for years and years and years because he doesn't want to carry the can creatively for what was a group enterprise and not just down to his individual 'genius'.  You think he could've put out music to match Appetite and Illusions?  I don't.  And Chi Dem proved that because if that album was the fruits of a perfectionist geniuses labour then I'd hate to see him on his worst day.  All he would've done is release two to three albums and absolutely destroyed the GnR discography with it.  They would've just been a band like a million others that released two or three belters then just couldn't cut it anymore. 

(...)

(So that basically makes invalid the) theory of (Axl) becoming ten times more rich if he hadn't've gone into hiding because that presupposes his having the talent and wherewithal to put out consistent product...

 

 

Edited by ludurigan

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1 hour ago, Rovim said:

Tommy said he thought Axl cares too much about what other people think

Zakk Wylde said similar stuff about Axl

 

A quote by Zakk Wylde from 2006 Guitar World Magazine:

"I remember jamming with Axl Rose, and he was like, "Look at Fred Durst and Eddie Vedder. They're on the cover of Rolling Stone. Man, they've got something good going on."

I go, "Your joking right? That dude wears a backward baseball cap, and you're Axl fucking Rose. Are you outta your fucking mind? Eddie Vedder can't lick your balls on a good day!" [laughs]

I'm not joking man. I am stating fact. Whatever trend was popular, Axl wanted to do it."

source:

 

Its quite telling, isnt it?

 

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4 minutes ago, Rovim said:

also he ended up not using the Brian May version of Catcher's guitar solo and I think it was because he didn't feel the reception of the leaked version was positive enough. He also changed Better's chorus lyrics and I remember before the album was released people mocked a line in it and said it was silly (now I know you know better, you know I know better) simplified that as well.

Tommy said he thought Axl cares too much about what other people think. Thing is: that comment he made in the Globo interview wasn't really a good indication to know what he feels about the amount of layers in the album imo but it could be. It's just that whole Queen thing. I guess we'll know for sure only if someone will ask him if it was too much or if another Gn'R album will be released in the future. Very likely that Bob Ezrin's feedback made him go back and tinker some more.

Similar thing with the Illusions: When they started recording them, Axl said that even if the albums wouldn't be successful right away because they were different than Appetite, he was confident that they would be discovered and acknowledged later; and when they were released, he seemed satisfied with the result and said they came out exactly as he had wanted them. But later he found flaws in them and said Appetite will always be the definite GnR album - I guess because he saw that as time passed the Illusions weren't as highly regarded as Appetite.

I guess we'll never know what exactly happened between late '99 and mid '01. We have solid proof now that there was a lot of progress during that period, although there were problems (Finck leaving - returning, Freese leaving, Sean Beavan going - RTB coming etc.) and in the interviews of that period Axl seemed to really intend to release something "soon". Then, by mid 2001, things were suddenly in limbo, in 2002 soon was not the word, then three years where nothing seemed to happen, and in all it took seven more years for the album to finally come out.

After CD was released, Axl gave it time to be widely accepted and acknowledged, like he had said he would have done with the Illusions: he told Trunk in 2011 that he believed CD had just started being discovered by more people. 

Axl had stated that he didn't want to be defined by only one album, Appetite (the meaning of the famous quote about "burying Appetite" that has been often misunderstood) but that's exactly what happened, at least as far the "general public" goes. I think that, although he accepted it (hence the Appetite-heavy setlists since 2001), he has never made peace with it. Then I guess he wanted the "Nu" era to make its mark so that GnR wouldn't be defined only by the "old lineups" and that didn't happen either, again as far as the general public and the majority of the fans go.

Many other musicians either come to terms that they had a peak they won't be able to reach again, and they just continue to make and release music doing the best they can, or they continue using the belief that they can exceed themselves as motivation (Nick Cave, for example, said that he always has to believe that his new music could exceed everything he's ever done before so that he can be motivated to make and release music). But neither seems to work for Axl and I think this a big part of why he has been so difficult in releasing music. But at the same time I think that the chances of new music being released now are a lot bigger compared to 2009-14.

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1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

 

is Axl defined only by Appetite? I guess you can say that but I think certain songs from other Gn'R albums are what most Gn'R fans also strongly associate with him as an artist. His most notable musical achievements. It's part of how I define him at least. I think at the top it's November Rain and Estranged as far as casuals go, so while Appetite is "the" album, to most hardcore fans it seems Axl is not defined by just that album either. (Civil War, Coma, Locomotive are part of the defining moments)

even though these are just a few tunes, the impact was there and I think it became part of the definition.

We might know what happened one day, if Axl writes an autobiography. I think he wants to do it, but maybe years from now when the band is not active anymore.

Bob Dylan was asked once if he could still write the brilliant tunes he wrote when he was much younger. He said something like "no, I can't, but I can do other stuff now." I think this is a good approach to have but my guess is for Axl it's like there are no excuses.

It cannot taint the legacy with something that is not good enough (for him) and I get the feeling his method is to take the time to look at it a few times and think about what every part of it means (like Slash said how Axl likes to think about it) and if he comes to a different musical conclusion he makes changes while disregarding what is widely accepted, time constraints, etc.

it's ready when it's ready kinda thing. Add the insecurities, endless resources, and other shit like the waiting for the right conditions from a financial standpoint and it's artistically a recipe for disaster or the reason for delays and why a Gn'R release is a rare and special occasion.

edit: and like every other person in the world, Axl is capable of changing his mind and public perception of his music does seem to factor in how he feels about it after it had enough time to be digested. Axl seemed disappointed that fans didn't connect with his clean voice he chose to go with for Chinese.

Edited by Rovim

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2 minutes ago, Rovim said:

is Axl defined only by Appetite? I guess you can say that but I think certain songs from other Gn'R albums are what most Gn'R fans also strongly associate with him as an artist. His most notable musical achievements. It's part of how I define him at least. I think at the top it's November Rain and Estranged as far as casuals go, so while Appetite is "the" album, to most hardcore fans it seems Axl is not defined by just that album either. (Civil War, Coma, Locomotive are part of the defining moments)

I agree that this is true about the fans and Axl is not defined only by Appetite to me either.

I wasn't referring to the fans, though, but to the "collective consciousness" that includes the public opinion, the press etc, for a big part of which GnR is an "one album band". Like, while you see Appetite making best of lists, you rarely see the Illusions - you may see November Rain in respective song lists, but not the albums.  It seems to me this is more important to Axl than what the hardcore fans think.

I think this perception of the Illusions has a lot to do with the fact that they coincided with releases that defined the years that followed, combined with the fact that GnR didn't release a follow-up of original material, so the albums were linked with the band's downfall - and that combination led to a kind of "UYI revisionism" although they were generally well received upon their release. There is a book addressing this issue that I found very interesting:

 

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22 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I agree that this is true about the fans and Axl is not defined only by Appetite to me either.

I wasn't referring to the fans, though, but to the "collective consciousness" that includes the public opinion, the press etc, for a big part of which GnR is an "one album band". Like, while you see Appetite making best of lists, you rarely see the Illusions - you may see November Rain in respective song lists, but not the albums.  It seems to me this is more important to Axl than what the hardcore fans think.

I think this perception of the Illusions has a lot to do with the fact that they coincided with releases that defined the years that followed, combined with the fact that GnR didn't release a follow-up of original material, so the albums were linked with the band's downfall - and that combination led to a kind of "UYI revisionism" although they were generally well received upon their release. There is a book addressing this issue that I found very interesting:

thanks, I'll check that book out. It's an interesting way of looking at it. I agree. If I had to guess I'd say the artistic goal is maybe to be a part of pop culture by making a musical statement and to make it stand the test of time, as an album. Individual songs are a different kind of success, probably not the main thing for Axl.

Edited by Rovim
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6 hours ago, Blackstar said:

Axl had stated that he didn't want to be defined by only one album, Appetite (the meaning of the famous quote about "burying Appetite" that has been often misunderstood) but that's exactly what happened, at least as far the "general public" goes. I think that, although he accepted it (hence the Appetite-heavy setlists since 2001), he has never made peace with it.

 

i dont think it has to do with accepting, i think it is directly related with the fact that HE ABSOLUTELY NEEDED to play Appetite songs to have people constantly coming to his shows from 2001 until 2020 and is pretty obvious that they will keep on needing those songs to keep attracting people

Edited by ludurigan
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4 hours ago, ludurigan said:

 

i dont think it has to do with accepting, i think it is directly related with the fact that HE ABSOLUTELY NEEDED to play Appetite songs to have people constantly coming to his shows from 2001 until 2020 and is pretty obvious that they will keep on needing those songs to keep attracting people

Yep. When BH joined and axl said he needs to play the old stuff at least for a while , as axl wanted to constantly release new music to the point where there would be no afd, lies or illusions songs played. As the years went by it became clear there would be no new music and the nuguns guys left. Axl was then defned by the bands back catalogue.

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2 hours ago, Sydney Fan said:

Yep. When BH joined and axl said he needs to play the old stuff at least for a while , as axl wanted to constantly release new music to the point where there would be no afd, lies or illusions songs played. As the years went by it became clear there would be no new music and the nuguns guys left. Axl was then defned by the bands back catalogue.

Was this his aim, to phase out old stuff and just play new music?

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10 hours ago, ludurigan said:

 

i dont think it has to do with accepting, i think it is directly related with the fact that HE ABSOLUTELY NEEDED to play Appetite songs to have people constantly coming to his shows from 2001 until 2020 and is pretty obvious that they will keep on needing those songs to keep attracting people

He "needed" to play as many Appetite songs as were played in the UYI tour, i.e. 4-5, the biggest hits, and the rest (besides the Nu songs he played) could have been from the Illusions. But since 2001 the Illusions were under-represented in the setlist (for years he played only YCBM, NR and the two covers) as opposed to 7-8 songs off Appetite. This is what I meant: there was no balance in the set as far as the catalog went.

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^^^

A big part of it also was because Appetite era was the best for him, too. It was the GnR period he had the fondest memories of, whereas the Illusions era was when the band was falling apart.

Rose: For me, when I hear certain things on the "Use Your Illusion" tour, I... on that record, it's... since I'm in it, I can hear a band dying. I can hear when Izzy was unconsciously over it. I can hear where the band was leaning away from what Guns N' Roses [had] originally been about. People may have their favorite songs, and it may be on "Use Your Illusion," but most people do tend to lean towards "Appetite" as being the defining Guns N' Roses record, and I can hear how, in the sound, it was moving away from that there. There's just so much I was able to do in keeping that aspect together.

https://www.a-4-d.com/t3074-1999-11-08-mtv-axl-rose-a-conversation-with-kurt-loder

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