Axl and Kurt: More alike than they were different

[RichardNixon]

People, it's 2012 for fucks sake, get over it already.

[Angelica]

What you have to remember is that Kurt didn't just hate Axl, he hated GN'R in general and thought their music was crap. The Axl haters here will cling on to him disliking Axl and cheer Kurt, but he hated GN'R's music in general. He was one of these ironic hipster effeminate Political Correctness Nazi types who'd feel people like us--GN'R fans--were dumb meatheads.

Also, this interesting thing comes from "Come as You Are" by Michael Azzerad, page 214-215:

Impromptu scribblings aside, one remarkable aspect of "Teen Spirit" was that unlike many previous songs of it's type, it didn't blame the older generation for anything--it laid the blame at the feet of it's own audience. That implies a sense of responsibility that didn't quite fit the slacker stereotype. Although "Teen Spirit" was a bold and provocative dare, Kurt feels he crossed the line into condemnation. "I got caught up in pointing the finger at this generation," says Kurt. "The results of that aren't very positive at all. All it does is alienate people and make them feel the same feeling you get from an evil stepdad. It's like, 'You'd better do it right' or 'You'd better be more effective or I'm not gonna like you anymore.' I don't mean to do that because I know that throughout the eighties, my generation was fucking helpless. There was so much right wing power that there was almost nothing we could do.

'I know that I've probably conveyed this feeling of 'Kurt Cobain hates his audience because they're apathetic', which isn't the case at all. Within the last two years, I've noticed a consciousness that's why more positive, way more intelligent in the younger generation and the proof is in the stupid things like Sassy magazine and MTV in general. Whether you want to admit that or not, there is a positive consciousness and people are becoming more human. I've always been optimistic, but it's the little Johnny Rotten inside me that has to be a sarcastic asshole."

"Introducing that song, in the position we were in, I couldn't possibly say I was making fun or being sarcastic or being judgmental toward the youth-rock movement because I would have come across as instantly negative. I wanted to fool people at first. I wanted people to think that we were no different than Guns n' Roses. Because then that way they would listen to the music first, accept us, and maybe start listening to a few things that we had to say, after the fact, after we had the recognition. It was easier to operate the way."--Kurt Cobain

Hmm...

My favorite part is the "Hmm...", because it suggests you think you've said something really thought provoking.

Still hate Axl cause of the People Magazine Erin interview?

As usual, I'm not sure what you're talking about and neither are you.

Angie, baby, you've been around these tracks for about as long as me, you've always had a great dislike toward Axl and I remember you used to talk about Axl's treatment of Erin quite a bit back in the day.

My feelings about Axl are wildly ambivalent and influenced by a numerous factors.

You must be thinking of someone else because from what I can tell she's got an everlasting creepy hard on for Waxy.

You either mean Greg Dulli, or you're confusing me with someone else...

Edited June 18, 2012 by Angelica

[Nintari]

What a cool guy you are.

You mean "what a cool guy Kurty was"! Key word- was. Thank god.

No, I mean you.Being able to mock someone who died 18 years ago. Man, what's your secret?

Hey- I never got the whole "grunge thing". I loved the 'strip bamds' (you know....Guns, Crüe, Poison, Et al...the party bands) then these "guys" show up all serious, deep, hating life, raining on the parade. It was like WTF? Just go away....which they eventually did.

Not before they (the entire Seattle movement) erased these overly contrived, bloated, musically challenged, company manufactured, cross dressing "bands" that you loved. Kinda hurts doesn't it? To watch everything you liked become a joke over night. To witness everything you were into, and worship, become fodder for the masses. I don't blame you for being bitter after all these years. I'd be bitter too.

Edited June 18, 2012 by Nintari

[dalsh327]

Have seen both of those Frusciante videos, funny that you went to dig them up though.

Call him talented, sure. He had a great sense of melody. I just have no idea how anyone could call him a genius or close to it. I REALLY think that label comes directly from his suicide.

i tend to agree if he had not committed suicide he would have flamed out like grunge. grunge was just a fad (a short lived one for the most part) but kurt went out at the peak so you had alot 15 or 16 year olds crying about how much of a genius he was.

I think Kurt would've branched out into producing movies and other artists, and put Nirvana on the backburner. Dave prob. would've left anyway, maybe one of the songs that wound up on the first Foo Fighters would've been a Nirvana song, but I don't think he would've stayed in the band for much longer, but if they worked infrequently, maybe it would've been different.

[Snowmass]

What a cool guy you are.

You mean "what a cool guy Kurty was"! Key word- was. Thank god.

No, I mean you.Being able to mock someone who died 18 years ago. Man, what's your secret?

Hey- I never got the whole "grunge thing". I loved the 'strip bamds' (you know....Guns, Crüe, Poison, Et al...the party bands) then these "guys" show up all serious, deep, hating life, raining on the parade. It was like WTF? Just go away....which they eventually did.

Not before they (the entire Seattle movement) erased these overly contrived, bloated, musically challenged, company manufactured, cross dressing "bands" that you loved. Kinda hurts doesn't it? To watch everything you liked become a joke over night. To witness everything you were into, and worship, become fodder for the masses. I don't blame you for being bitter after all these years. I'd be bitter too.

Bitter- no. I just kinda looked at these depressed Seattle shit heads and shook my head. Like a WTF is this shit. And thankfully it kinda faded away. Interesting you're hatred of bands like GnR. Wrong board "dude". And what exactly do you mean "become a joke"? To who?

[Georgy Zhukov]

They are both assholes.

[Rustycage]

Have seen both of those Frusciante videos, funny that you went to dig them up though.

Call him talented, sure. He had a great sense of melody. I just have no idea how anyone could call him a genius or close to it. I REALLY think that label comes directly from his suicide.

i tend to agree if he had not committed suicide he would have flamed out like grunge. grunge was just a fad (a short lived one for the most part) but kurt went out at the peak so you had alot 15 or 16 year olds crying about how much of a genius he was.

I think Kurt would've branched out into producing movies and other artists, and put Nirvana on the backburner. Dave prob. would've left anyway, maybe one of the songs that wound up on the first Foo Fighters would've been a Nirvana song, but I don't think he would've stayed in the band for much longer, but if they worked infrequently, maybe it would've been different.

The band was already done. His plan to be more lowkey and just do acoustic stuff.

"Dave probably would have left anyway?"

They were already split up.

[Snowmass]

They are both assholes.

Well- one is long gone...lost in the annals (LOL) or RnR history.

[Rustycage]

They are both assholes.

Well- one is long gone...lost in the annals (LOL) or RnR history.

I have to admit, I was shocked to learn you're actually 41.

[Snowmass]

Axl Rose 2012 ( probably)- 'you know where Cobain is..he's in my ass"!.

[WhazUp]

What a cool guy you are.

You mean "what a cool guy Kurty was"! Key word- was. Thank god.

No, I mean you.Being able to mock someone who died 18 years ago. Man, what's your secret?

Hey- I never got the whole "grunge thing". I loved the 'strip bamds' (you know....Guns, Crüe, Poison, Et al...the party bands) then these "guys" show up all serious, deep, hating life, raining on the parade. It was like WTF? Just go away....which they eventually did.

Not before they (the entire Seattle movement) erased these overly contrived, bloated, musically challenged, company manufactured, cross dressing "bands" that you loved. Kinda hurts doesn't it? To watch everything you liked become a joke over night. To witness everything you were into, and worship, become fodder for the masses. I don't blame you for being bitter after all these years. I'd be bitter too.

Bitter- no. I just kinda looked at these depressed Seattle shit heads and shook my head. Like a WTF is this shit. And thankfully it kinda faded away. Interesting you're hatred of bands like GnR. Wrong board "dude". And what exactly do you mean "become a joke"? To who?

I always considered GNR to be a notch above the hair metal dudes. Thank god for bands like Pearl Jam and Soundgarden especially when the 90's hit

Edited June 18, 2012 by WhazUp

[Snowmass]

What a cool guy you are.

You mean "what a cool guy Kurty was"! Key word- was. Thank god.

No, I mean you.Being able to mock someone who died 18 years ago. Man, what's your secret?

Hey- I never got the whole "grunge thing". I loved the 'strip bamds' (you know....Guns, Crüe, Poison, Et al...the party bands) then these "guys" show up all serious, deep, hating life, raining on the parade. It was like WTF? Just go away....which they eventually did.

Not before they (the entire Seattle movement) erased these overly contrived, bloated, musically challenged, company manufactured, cross dressing "bands" that you loved. Kinda hurts doesn't it? To watch everything you liked become a joke over night. To witness everything you were into, and worship, become fodder for the masses. I don't blame you for being bitter after all these years. I'd be bitter too.

Bitter- no. I just kinda looked at these depressed Seattle shit heads and shook my head. Like a WTF is this shit. And thankfully it kinda faded away. Interesting you're hatred of bands like GnR. Wrong board "dude". And what exactly do you mean "become a joke"? To who?

I always considered GNR to be a notch above the hair metal dudes. Thank god for bands like Pearl Jam and Soundgarden especially

Both decent bands.

[Angelica]

I always considered GNR to be a notch above the hair metal dudes.

Yeah, so did most people. Including Axl. If anything, GNR were the bridge between hair metal and grunge. Anyone who thinks Axl would enjoy being lumped in with Poison and Motley Crue hasn't been paying much attention to him over the years.

[Eu4ic]

Kurt was really talented but there's no way Nirvana would've been shit without Dave Grohl. SLTS, Come as you are, Lithium, and In Bloom all had monstrous drum tracks. It was like John Bonham modernized. it sounded more rock than anything that come out of the LA glam scene in years. Once again, a clear example of how utterly parasitic punk (and 'alternative') is on rock n roll, the very thing it demonizes; the very thing it tries to destroy.

I think Johnny Rotten apprehended this fact long ago because yea he was in Sex Pistols and shitted on rock n roll but he left the punk thing when it was no longer contributing something novel and so he went and did Public Image Ltd which isnt exactly rock n roll but it's experimental, it was an artistic endeavor, and not such a parasite on something else.

By the way, wtf is with Axl trying to reproduce Nevermind's drum 'sound' on Chi Dem? I dont hear hardly any similarity except maybe the tone. I mean, there are no fills, no acrobatics, it doesnt jump out of the songs the way Dave's did on Nevermind. Maybe if he, you know, let Brain actually play it would've helped. I have tons of Brain albums and Chi Dem hardly reflects his sound, let alone harnesses his talent towards a new sound.

[The_Universal_Sigh]

People who say Nirvana just influenced shitty mainstream butt-rock shit like Nickelback and influenced people not technically talented that they could be artists.... listen, there's more to it than that.

Punk. Dirty ass 3 chord punk shit played loud proud and badly. What came of it? A way of looking at music, mostly. Nu wave, hardcore, post-punk.... these don't have all that much in common with punk but all stem from it in one way or another. "Ideology" may be the wrong word but it keeps coming to my mind as I type this.

Grunge, or more specifically Nirvana even over bands like Soundgarden and Alice in Chains (who are also good, not hating) influenced the next(and current) generation in how to think and present music as much as punk did and as much as they influenced the style of music played. The whole attitude of indie - do it yourself, stay away from corporate cock sucking but still get your music out there in big ways, maintaining artistic integrity, listening to more obscure music, playing with heart over technicality, dressing down instead of flamboyant and "stage clothes"-like.... all these things, from the bands of today, sort of stem from the alternative explosion in the early 90s led by Nirvana.

So many more people listen to underground, indie, alternative, whatever music than ever before and it's not just the internet doing this it's a whole mind-set put in place in the 1990s putting bands like Sonic Youth, The Pixies, Velvet Underground, Bad Brains, tonnes of other bands up there with the biggest bands ever which just wasn't the case pre-Nirvana when those bands were in their prime.

EDIT: VU might be a poor example. Typed this out fast.

EDIT2: You can say Kurt was a hypocrite. He was half the time full of himself, half the time overly sad about life. That's really how a lot of teenagers/twenty somethings are nowadays and have been for a while. Even if he's a hypocrite that doesn't take anything away from my point, his influence, or his legacy.

Edited June 18, 2012 by The_Universal_Sigh

[Kira]

I've read that interview before.

The thing is Kurt made some really dumb snap judgments about GN'R. I'm not justifying the immature way Axl handled Kurt, but Kurt was in the wrong, too, imo, and he was showing a lot of ignorance.

I say this as a fan of both men.

Great musician and legend in his own right- but at the end of the day IMHO Kurt was a politically-correct fascist motivated to stifle any artistic expression that didn't jive with his own social view. I like several Nirvana songs and respect their place in rock history- but all in all- I would find being a "hardcore" Nirvana fan an incredibly suffocating experience.

Maybe someone can dig it up- but the incident he talks about where a fan is defending GN'R at one of their concerts is frightening and very revealing. As I remember it- Kurt basically asserts that Axl/GN'R have "forfeited" their right to free speech/free expression b/c he dislikes the content of their music (before back-tracking slightly when the kid starts scoring some points on him).

Anyway- I'll always side with Axl defending the likes of NWA, Body Count and hell Nirvana for that matter to have the right to express themselves as brutally and honestly as they please over Kurt's "utopian" view where seemingly every white male stays PC at all cost and should put on a dress, kiss his best friend and neuter himself as a penalty for 500 years of oppressing women or whatever- and if you don't do it you're some unsalvagable "meathead" or something. Fuck that shit.

Finally- in the balance of time- Kurt's critique of classic GN'R's "artistic merit" is even more laughable. First Ballot Hall of Famers and a Greatest Hits record that's a virtual "must have" (as well as AFD) for most teenagers to this very day. Swing and a miss...

Great post. What I always thought was interesting was back in the day, Cobain and many others liked to deride white rock bands for sexist thinking. Some valid points, but only if you apply it to everybody. Not one of them dare spoke up about rap music where sexism was concerned. Video hos are still alive and kicking in that genre today.

[HisRoyalSweetness]

for all the bullshit war between guns and nirvana, i don't feel like either of them has much of an influence on rock anymore. i feel like i hear more bands that sound like greenday than guns or nirvana.

Edited June 18, 2012 by HisRoyalSweetness

[Kira]

Bigger impact on music- Axl. Bigger loss between '93-2000-Axl (I know Kurt was dead but you can follow). Who woulda been bigger in 2012- Axl.

Neither of them....it's 2012! Lol

[crackerjack]

What you have to remember is that Kurt didn't just hate Axl, he hated GN'R in general and thought their music was crap. The Axl haters here will cling on to him disliking Axl and cheer Kurt, but he hated GN'R's music in general. He was one of these ironic hipster effeminate Political Correctness Nazi types who'd feel people like us--GN'R fans--were dumb meatheads.

Also, this interesting thing comes from "Come as You Are" by Michael Azzerad, page 214-215:

There weren't any hipsters 20 years ago Miser. Hipsters imitate Kurt, not the other way around. Kurt was passionate about his political views and punk rock music. Based on your open description of your personal behavior I would categorize you as the resident hipster of the forum but I guess you would sacrifice any respect to further your apologies for Axl.

People like us? Get a life Miser. Kurt didn't like racists or misogynists. It's not that hard to understand and there is no reason to elaborate. It's no wonder you try to make it more complicated like it's Kurt's conspiracy. And who could disagree with everything Kurt said? From his vantage point Axl was unapologetic about it and Kurt was brave to say what he said. Kurt liked Metallica and Sound Garden. He wasn't out to annihilate competition. Fact is that if Guns N' Roses music wasn't racist or misogynistic, he might have liked them. I agree with everything he said, and if you look at the comments on the YouTube videos most of the world agrees with him too.

Do yourself a favor and go post this same thread on a Nirvana form. You appear to have an equal interest in both parties as you mention. Please, please go and do this.

[Kira]

What you have to remember is that Kurt didn't just hate Axl, he hated GN'R in general and thought their music was crap. The Axl haters here will cling on to him disliking Axl and cheer Kurt, but he hated GN'R's music in general. He was one of these ironic hipster effeminate Political Correctness Nazi types who'd feel people like us--GN'R fans--were dumb meatheads.

Also, this interesting thing comes from "Come as You Are" by Michael Azzerad, page 214-215:

Impromptu scribblings aside, one remarkable aspect of "Teen Spirit" was that unlike many previous songs of it's type, it didn't blame the older generation for anything--it laid the blame at the feet of it's own audience. That implies a sense of responsibility that didn't quite fit the slacker stereotype. Although "Teen Spirit" was a bold and provocative dare, Kurt feels he crossed the line into condemnation. "I got caught up in pointing the finger at this generation," says Kurt. "The results of that aren't very positive at all. All it does is alienate people and make them feel the same feeling you get from an evil stepdad. It's like, 'You'd better do it right' or 'You'd better be more effective or I'm not gonna like you anymore.' I don't mean to do that because I know that throughout the eighties, my generation was fucking helpless. There was so much right wing power that there was almost nothing we could do.

'I know that I've probably conveyed this feeling of 'Kurt Cobain hates his audience because they're apathetic', which isn't the case at all. Within the last two years, I've noticed a consciousness that's why more positive, way more intelligent in the younger generation and the proof is in the stupid things like Sassy magazine and MTV in general. Whether you want to admit that or not, there is a positive consciousness and people are becoming more human. I've always been optimistic, but it's the little Johnny Rotten inside me that has to be a sarcastic asshole."

"Introducing that song, in the position we were in, I couldn't possibly say I was making fun or being sarcastic or being judgmental toward the youth-rock movement because I would have come across as instantly negative. I wanted to fool people at first. I wanted people to think that we were no different than Guns n' Roses. Because then that way they would listen to the music first, accept us, and maybe start listening to a few things that we had to say, after the fact, after we had the recognition. It was easier to operate the way."--Kurt Cobain

Hmm...

Kurt's punk cred was very important to him, but some of the bands he promoted we're horrible. Shonen Knife anyone? Ugh.

[Kira]

There weren't any hipsters 20 years ago Miser. .

Oh yes there were. Sonic Youth. Lol

[crackerjack]

I really dislike Miser. I really, really, really don't like him. He expends hours away posting apologies for Axl just because he identifies with the misery and unrequited love. Reading his posts on hair, musical tastes, I have the feeling he wants to be like him. On top of all that he made a cupcake thread insulting Kurt Cobain's memory to further a sophist's apologies for Axl. I've changed my mind about his posts now, and remember now why I didn't like him.

[shotgunblues1978]

The fact that Cobain thought he knew who Axl was and what he was about based on essentially one song (One In A Million) and the way that he played up his disdain for GnR in the press in order to build up his "counter culture" cred was fairly pathetic and transparent. This interview kind of says it all about him. He was a narrow minded, pseudo-intellectual hypocrite but he had a knack for manipulating the press

http://www.burntout.com/kurt/interviews/int4.html

[bran]

The fact that Cobain thought he knew who Axl was and what he was about based on essentially one song (One In A Million) and the way that he played up his disdain for GnR in the press in order to build up his "counter culture" cred was fairly pathetic and transparent. This interview kind of says it all about him. He was a narrow minded, pseudo-intellectual hypocrite but he had a knack for manipulating the press

http://www.burntout....views/int4.html

great post

[Snowmass]

The fact that Cobain thought he knew who Axl was and what he was about based on essentially one song (One In A Million) and the way that he played up his disdain for GnR in the press in order to build up his "counter culture" cred was fairly pathetic and transparent. This interview kind of says it all about him. He was a narrow minded, pseudo-intellectual hypocrite but he had a knack for manipulating the press

http://www.burntout.com/kurt/interviews/int4.html

Excellent read. What a douche he was. JFC now I'm all fired up again (LOL). God I'm glad he's gone. What a jealous dick.