What is the difference (in your personal estimation) between Avante Garde and a load of fuckin' noise?

[Guest Len B'stard]

Pretty simple question really but i'm interested in each individuals individual perspective on it. So yeah, simple question, whats the difference, in your estimation, between avante garde and just a load of fuckin' racket and what is the criteria in your mind that seperates the two.

Is that beautiful or is that a load of fuckin' racket, to your personal opinion? At what point, if at any, do you stop and say "y'know what, that ain't fuckin' music, thats just some idiot bashing the shit out of a bit of wood with strings on it". The key aspect that i'm interested in though is what criteria do you differentiate upon? And are your desicions made purely by a listen or do you need some form of an explanation or definition as to the intent behind creating a given piece of avante garde music before making any judgements one way or the other?

Edited July 19, 2012 by sugaraylen

[Vincent Vega]

I would think maybe what separates "avant garde" from "noise" is maybe, if the piece has SOME point, or is making some sort of statement, like Hendrix's version of the Star Spangled Banner--noise to some, a beautiful reinvention of the song to myself and many more...But then again, why should art have a "point"? It's a tough question. Maybe melody is what separates it? Most avant garde stuff I've heard has some sort of melody or some sort of beauty, even if it's unintentional. But if it's just a guy playing random notes on a guitar for no real reason, basically, plays a piece of shit piece with no thought or emotion put into it, what makes it "avant garde" or art any more than a tape of a 2 year old trying to play a piano?

Edited July 19, 2012 by Indigo Miser

[TheNightrain]

Avant Garde is what you call noise, when it has a bucket on its head

[Guest Len B'stard]

I would think maybe what separates "avant garde" from "noise" is maybe, if the piece has SOME point, or is making some sort of statement, like Hendrix's version of the Star Spangled Banner--noise to some, a beautiful reinvention of the song to myself and many more...But then again, why should art have a "point"? It's a tough question. Maybe melody is what separates it? Most avant garde stuff I've heard has some sort of melody or some sort of beauty, even if it's unintentional. But if it's just a guy playing random notes on a guitar for no real reason, basically, plays a piece of shit piece with no thought or emotion put into it, what makes it "avant garde" or art any more than a tape of a 2 year old trying to play a piano?

OK, interesting response

Say the piece i just posted the link of, if you listened to that offhand with no point of reference, what would your response be to it, speaking specifically here about percieved artistic merit? Or is it a case of, as you say, knowing or being informed beforehand of some kind of intent on the artists part, or is your personal emotional response to it as a piece unto itself sufficient? First of all, what is that response?

[Dazey]

To me it's the same thing as art in a lot of ways. The difference between art and a load fucking shite is talent. I usually ask myself if I could do that and if the answer's yes it probably isn't art. Artistic intent is a fucking load of shit cos if you have to explain it to people then the piece itself didn't say what you wanted it to and it's fucking shit!

Edited July 19, 2012 by Dazey

[Chinaski]

Basically I reckon my brain somehow makes a decision whether what it is absorbing is just out there for the sake of being out there (which it would then dismiss as nonsense) or is someone pushing themselves creatively as far as they can go and have ended up at that point (in which case I would try and get my head around it.)

[GnRDuff1]

Avant Garde is what you call noise, when it has a bucket on its head

+1

[MB.]

I have no answer to the question, but personally this was noise in my opinion.

When I think of Avante Garde, I think more of bands like Japan ( David Sylvian) or Sakamoto. But I can be totally wrong ofcourse.

Edited July 19, 2012 by MBRose

[bran]

that video was bad. avante garde is really a loose definition it is all about experimentation and making music that doesnt follow the conventional norms of music. i am no expert the only thing im familiar with is avante garde that is part of metal music like agallochm maudlin of the well, celtic frost and stuff like that like some have said i just think it is about the musician their is a fine line between expanding the horizons of music and just making noise

[dalsh327]

It goes back to "Metal Machine Music" - was Lou Reed fucking serious or is was he scamming the audience? He'll never answer that.

Whether it's Branca, Reed, or Thurston Moore, I felt like they were finding ways to use guitar feedback, not necc. notes, to come up with music. Some people play the piano, someone who's into avant-garde is going to open up and play the strings.

I'm sure some GNR unreleased stuff is avant-garde, but you'd have to ask the guys in the band whether they think some of it is. You might actually get an answer on it, too.

[wasted]

Avante garde just means something new. So if it's a new or innovative racket then it's avante garde.

[moreblack]

the difference probably depends more on what the listener is willing to put up with

[Cosmo]

It goes back to "Metal Machine Music" - was Lou Reed fucking serious or is was he scamming the audience? He'll never answer that.

I heard it was just to fulfill a label deal obligation, wasn't it?

[wasted]

the difference probably depends more on what the listener is willing to put up with

I don't think that's a very good definition though. although that is my definition. I went to a random "avante garde" show and it was very serious, on a classical music stage, this guy was a legend of avante garde. everything was dead silent and it literally was just silence then every 10 secs a little noise. then nothing. and we were just biting our hands trying to hold it in. it was so long. everyone else was completely serious listening intently. and i was just couldnt hold it in so a laughed once. That was way way past my level of tolerance.

But point being is this guy was the god of avante garde minimalism or something. Totally legit and serious in the South Bank centre or whatever, ground breaking artist in his field.

I personally can just about handle innovations within rock. like a slight twist on the same thing. FNM Angel Dust.

But really I'm not educated enough to really say what is avante garde.

If it was just what I can put up with there is very little that qualifies. It really must come from the people who listen to all that stuff regularly and don't burst into tears of laughter when it's played, know the territory.

I know people who listen to classical who just think rock is just noise.

[GivenToFly]

The way I see it is this: a musician, when writing new stuff tries different things, sees what sticks, discards everything else; what is discarded deserves to be. Avante garde movements are this but at a larger scale. I personally stay away from them. I understand how important they are for music to be able to evolve but I'd rather leave the task of sifting through all the new stuff to other people because inevitably most of it will be shit and I don't have the patience for it.

[TeeJay410]

An avante garde musician doesn't limit their music to the conventions of music theory.

[GivenToFly]

Neither does a monkey banging on bongos.

[dalsh327]

the difference probably depends more on what the listener is willing to put up with

I don't think that's a very good definition though. although that is my definition. I went to a random "avante garde" show and it was very serious, on a classical music stage, this guy was a legend of avante garde. everything was dead silent and it literally was just silence then every 10 secs a little noise. then nothing. and we were just biting our hands trying to hold it in. it was so long. everyone else was completely serious listening intently. and i was just couldnt hold it in so a laughed once. That was way way past my level of tolerance.

But point being is this guy was the god of avante garde minimalism or something. Totally legit and serious in the South Bank centre or whatever, ground breaking artist in his field.

I personally can just about handle innovations within rock. like a slight twist on the same thing. FNM Angel Dust.

But really I'm not educated enough to really say what is avante garde.

If it was just what I can put up with there is very little that qualifies. It really must come from the people who listen to all that stuff regularly and don't burst into tears of laughter when it's played, know the territory.

I know people who listen to classical who just think rock is just noise.

My guess is that the silence was the "music", not the 10 second noise, if anything, it was just functioning to keep time. Nothing's absolutely silent when it comes to a room full of people. There's cases in rock music where silence can play an important role in the song.

[Johnny Drama]

When it comes to noise rock, I love Helmet.

[Dazey]

I love Helmet.

Tell us something we don't already fuckin' know!

[Johnny Drama]

I love Helmet.

Tell us something we don't already fuckin' know!

As soon as I saw your name as last poster, I saw that coming from a mile away you cunt! I still lol'ed.

[Dazey]

I love Helmet.

Tell us something we don't already fuckin' know!

As soon as I saw your name as last poster, I saw that coming from a mile away you cunt! I still lol'ed.

I can't help it, it's like whatsisface's fuckin' dog, it really is man. Like involuntary n that, I just see something like that and it's like a red rag to a bull. The comment's already formed itself in my head before my brain's had chance to do anything.

[bacardimayne]

being in key

[wasted]

the difference probably depends more on what the listener is willing to put up with

I don't think that's a very good definition though. although that is my definition. I went to a random "avante garde" show and it was very serious, on a classical music stage, this guy was a legend of avante garde. everything was dead silent and it literally was just silence then every 10 secs a little noise. then nothing. and we were just biting our hands trying to hold it in. it was so long. everyone else was completely serious listening intently. and i was just couldnt hold it in so a laughed once. That was way way past my level of tolerance.

But point being is this guy was the god of avante garde minimalism or something. Totally legit and serious in the South Bank centre or whatever, ground breaking artist in his field.

I personally can just about handle innovations within rock. like a slight twist on the same thing. FNM Angel Dust.

But really I'm not educated enough to really say what is avante garde.

If it was just what I can put up with there is very little that qualifies. It really must come from the people who listen to all that stuff regularly and don't burst into tears of laughter when it's played, know the territory.

I know people who listen to classical who just think rock is just noise.

My guess is that the silence was the "music", not the 10 second noise, if anything, it was just functioning to keep time. Nothing's absolutely silent when it comes to a room full of people. There's cases in rock music where silence can play an important role in the song.

It was something like that. Maybe suspense because it eventually built up to a crescendo of notes. It could see how after you see a few shows like it it might alright. It was more of a classical crowd or jazz. Their was an ambience. It was strange because my friend went to a Jeff Mills night there and some guy jumped off the balcony.

Safe to say I hit the bar at the intermission.

the difference probably depends more on what the listener is willing to put up with

I don't think that's a very good definition though. although that is my definition. I went to a random "avante garde" show and it was very serious, on a classical music stage, this guy was a legend of avante garde. everything was dead silent and it literally was just silence then every 10 secs a little noise. then nothing. and we were just biting our hands trying to hold it in. it was so long. everyone else was completely serious listening intently. and i was just couldnt hold it in so a laughed once. That was way way past my level of tolerance.

But point being is this guy was the god of avante garde minimalism or something. Totally legit and serious in the South Bank centre or whatever, ground breaking artist in his field.

I personally can just about handle innovations within rock. like a slight twist on the same thing. FNM Angel Dust.

But really I'm not educated enough to really say what is avante garde.

If it was just what I can put up with there is very little that qualifies. It really must come from the people who listen to all that stuff regularly and don't burst into tears of laughter when it's played, know the territory.

I know people who listen to classical who just think rock is just noise.

My guess is that the silence was the "music", not the 10 second noise, if anything, it was just functioning to keep time. Nothing's absolutely silent when it comes to a room full of people. There's cases in rock music where silence can play an important role in the song.

It was something like that. Maybe suspense because it eventually built up to a crescendo of notes. It could see how after you see a few shows like it it might alright. It was more of a classical crowd or jazz. Their was an ambience. It was strange because my friend went to a Jeff Mills night there and some guy jumped off the balcony.

Safe to say I hit the bar at the intermission.