CD deserved a competent audience

[DR DOOM]

Once again, they are good to great songs that for the most part were ruined by so much layering, tweaking and production on the actual product itself.

I've never really met anybody (besides one or two people I gave the leaks to) that liked GNR previously and then liked Chinese Democracy or have any other kind of opinion on the state of Axl's GNR besides it's a joke and it's not GNR without Slash and Duff.

Sorry.

[Damn_Smooth]

Once again, they are good to great songs that for the most part were ruined by so much layering, tweaking and production on the actual product itself.

I've never really met anybody (besides one or two people I gave the leaks to) that liked GNR previously and then liked Chinese Democracy or have any other kind of opinion on the state of Axl's GNR besides it's a joke and it's not GNR without Slash and Duff.

Sorry.

No need to apologize, opinions are opinions.

[EvH]

All you guys need are 3 words only : What . The. Fuck.

[wasted]

Wasted: Chinese is definitely not a solo album imo. Like you said, it was put together much like AFD. Like Axl said Appetite was "worked on and worked on", only with Chinese, the scale was different and many people were needed to turn Axl's vision into a reality.

It was ambitious cause it was like, now there are no excuses - Axl had a huge budget, and something to prove, but also now he didn't have to make everyone else in the band happy musically. This is why I think some may look at it like a solo thing. That, and because he's the only original member left, but it's far from being the case.

Slash said it was the perfect Axl Rose solo album, which probably makes sense if you were such a big part of the classic Guns sound and albums, but it was really a collaborative effort.

its like Axl Rose's GNR record. If Slash or Izzy stayed TWAT and TIL would have Slash solos maybe Riad would have been an Izzy song. Chi dem maybe would have been Slash riff rocker. But Axl would have still done 6 epics. Edited January 1, 2014 by wasted

[classicrawker]

Excerpt from a Classic Rock Magazine May 2008 interview with Marc Canter regarding Axl using the Guns name. Realize this was back in 2008 before ChiDem was released.......Axl was no dummy he knew he would be more successful using the GnR name instead of going the solo route........

CR Magazine: What about the controversy regarding the use of the Guns name?

Marc Canter: Well it'll sell more records if it's called Guns N Roses. And Axl does own the name. I asked Axl: "Why don't you put out a solo album?" He said he didn't want to do it. In his mind if a solo record only sold 2 million copies it would be a failure. He wants to sell 20 million records and he knows the only way it is going to happen is with the name.

[Apollo]

I love the righteousness of some who go on and on and on with excuse after excuse as to why people who don't like CD. They either never gave it a fair chance, or they hated it only because they hate Axl Rose, or they're a Slash fan or they aren't educated enough musically, or they have a mullet, or don't appreciate the layers and textures of the art, or they like Poison, or they just didn't like the image of new GnR or it wasn't promoted properly or they are lying about not liking it....... Do some of you never tire of making whack excuses? Who are you trying to convince anymore? The people who don't like it that they should or yourself that you really do like it? Its like some of you, your enjoyment of the album hinge son whether or not others enjoy it or if you can justify why they don't with stupid reasons.

Great post. You hit the nail on the head.

It's funny how people have to insult those who don't like the same album that they do. And they can't just admit that CD didn't sell very well and wasn't a huge success. And the need to constantly find excuses as to why the album undersold is just hilarious to watch.

Why not just enjoy the album, admit that it didn't do as well as expected, and move on? Making excuses just makes you look silly.

[Mr. Dude]

I love the righteousness of some who go on and on and on with excuse after excuse as to why people who don't like CD. They either never gave it a fair chance, or they hated it only because they hate Axl Rose, or they're a Slash fan or they aren't educated enough musically, or they have a mullet, or don't appreciate the layers and textures of the art, or they like Poison, or they just didn't like the image of new GnR or it wasn't promoted properly or they are lying about not liking it....... Do some of you never tire of making whack excuses? Who are you trying to convince anymore? The people who don't like it that they should or yourself that you really do like it? Its like some of you, your enjoyment of the album hinge son whether or not others enjoy it or if you can justify why they don't with stupid reasons.

Great post. You hit the nail on the head.

It's funny how people have to insult those who don't like the same album that they do. And they can't just admit that CD didn't sell very well and wasn't a huge success. And the need to constantly find excuses as to why the album undersold is just hilarious to watch.

Why not just enjoy the album, admit that it didn't do as well as expected, and move on? Making excuses just makes you look silly.

those evil Axl worshippers. What nerve. I mean, the gall of these people to act as if they can discuss any topic without it becoming an Axl v. Slash typing match. Go get'em great Groghan.

[Apollo]

I love the righteousness of some who go on and on and on with excuse after excuse as to why people who don't like CD. They either never gave it a fair chance, or they hated it only because they hate Axl Rose, or they're a Slash fan or they aren't educated enough musically, or they have a mullet, or don't appreciate the layers and textures of the art, or they like Poison, or they just didn't like the image of new GnR or it wasn't promoted properly or they are lying about not liking it....... Do some of you never tire of making whack excuses? Who are you trying to convince anymore? The people who don't like it that they should or yourself that you really do like it? Its like some of you, your enjoyment of the album hinge son whether or not others enjoy it or if you can justify why they don't with stupid reasons.

Great post. You hit the nail on the head.

It's funny how people have to insult those who don't like the same album that they do. And they can't just admit that CD didn't sell very well and wasn't a huge success. And the need to constantly find excuses as to why the album undersold is just hilarious to watch.

Why not just enjoy the album, admit that it didn't do as well as expected, and move on? Making excuses just makes you look silly.

those evil Axl worshippers. What nerve. I mean, the gall of these people to act as if they can discuss any topic without it becoming an Axl v. Slash typing match. Go get'em great Groghan.

Evil? Never said that. Just think it's ridiculous how they make excuses for everything that Axl does. I'm an Axl worshipper in real life. He's been my favorite singer since 1988.

And yes. People should be able to discuss Axl or GnR without turning it into an Axl-vs-Slash fight. People outside this forum are able to do that.

Great Groghan? Nope, never claimed to be great. Just use a little more common sense than some posters on here who let their Axl obsession cloud their ability to have a rational discussion about a rock band.

Thanks for your well thought out response though!

[wasted]

Excerpt from a Classic Rock Magazine May 2008 interview with Marc Canter regarding Axl using the Guns name. Realize this was back in 2008 before ChiDem was released.......Axl was no dummy he knew he would be more successful using the GnR name instead of going the solo route........

CR Magazine: What about the controversy regarding the use of the Guns name?

Marc Canter: Well it'll sell more records if it's called Guns N Roses. And Axl does own the name. I asked Axl: "Why don't you put out a solo album?" He said he didn't want to do it. In his mind if a solo record only sold 2 million copies it would be a failure. He wants to sell 20 million records and he knows the only way it is going to happen is with the name.

This is the number they were going for. Even Tom Zutaut in 99 was talking about. At that time they felt it was possible. This is where I dont get the label, they didnt kick up much of a storm about no Slash. But they didnt feel they had a hit. Thats what Zutaut was saying.

And i think Axl is a realist. He understood the mission, and felt the pressure to deliver. But in the end in terms of sales a 99-2000 release would have sold 4 mil in the US. Even the Beavan record would have sold better.

Expectations were high. So they wanted 20 mil but no real hit song, no Slash, delay it.

But actually a viable record and perceived success is more important to Axl. CDs success if not sales saved Axls career and he can still tour because theyve worked to find an audience.

The label obviously taken 20 mil with Slash in 99. so for them they didnt make as much money.

But Axl landed on his feet despite pissing off some people.

[Rovim]

Axl made the album he always wanted to make when he finished Chinese. As a musician, that's pretty great imo.

[Mr. Dude]

CD is a fine wine for an audience that drinks Natty Light. They don't care about the taste, they just wanna get drunk.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Mr. Dude

[classicrawker]

Axl made the album he always wanted to make when he finished Chinese. As a musician, that's pretty great imo.

What makes you so sure he thought it was finished when they pried it from his hands and released it?

[wasted]

Axl made the album he always wanted to make when he finished Chinese. As a musician, that's pretty great imo.

Do you think the mission changed a bit after they wouldnt mix 2000 version?

I think for Axl his mission is the right record as well his ideation of it. The band was also a consideration. I think he was happy with it more than once. But theres all these orher factors.

Like in 99 he was happy label have feeling no hit. He reconsiders. But real Chi dem and SOD would do it for GNR. But with the pressure for 20 mil he reconsiders. At that point his career rested on that. To hit 20 mil without slash. Or its a fail and his career ends in failure. In the end CD reached a point where success was assured. In terms of his career he was safe. Myth, hype, the best buy deal, not mention an album jammed full of strong material. With real GNR worthy songs. And no need to sell 20 mil anymore. Tour for money with career intact. He fucking won.

Edited January 3, 2014 by wasted

[classicrawker]

CD is a fine wine for an audience that drinks Natty Light.

Saying this over and over is not going to make it true mate...........

Axl made the album he always wanted to make when he finished Chinese. As a musician, that's pretty great imo.

Do you think the mission changed a bit after they wouldnt mix 2000 version?

I think for Axl his mission is the right record as well his ideation of it. The band was also a consideration. I think he was happy with it more than once. But theres all these orher factors.

Like in 99 he was happy label have feeling no hit. He reconsiders. But real Chi dem and SOD would do it for GNR. But with the pressure for 20 mil he reconsiders. At that point his career rested on that. To hit 20 mil without. Or its a fail and his career ends in failure. In the end CD reached a point where success was assured. In terms of his career he was safe. Myth, hype, the best buy deal, not mention an album jammed full of strong material. With real GNR worthy songs. And no need to sell 20 mil anymore. Tour for money with career intact. He fucking won.

But did he really win? one mediocre album in 20 years and constant touring the same setlist of songs to diminishing audiences.......sure he is making his $$$ but I would not say he won anything...not by a long shot..................

Edited January 3, 2014 by classicrawker

[magisme]

I imagine that he does nostalgia tours and hires musicians like DJ and phones in his live performances and refuses to release new music because he knows damn well he hasn't won shit.

[Cosmo]

Why do you guys care so much if Axl "won" or not? Didn't you get the album you wanted? Didn't it please you? What difference would numbers make on your joy when listening to the album? I know I loved the album and the only thing that saddens me is it's unlikely we'll get more of that.

[wasted]

CD is a fine wine for an audience that drinks Natty Light. They don't care about the taste, they just wanna get drunk.

its kind of a blend 90s vinos. But made the wines are different. Its kike you get Bordeaux and Merlot in 7-11 now not just Carlo Rossi. Add coke zero shaken not stirred.

[Rovim]

Axl made the album he always wanted to make when he finished Chinese. As a musician, that's pretty great imo.

What makes you so sure he thought it was finished when they pried it from his hands and released it?

After Chinese was released, Axl said so himself. He said something like he was satisfied with how it turned out musically.

I can't find the quote, but I'm certain he said it.

[wasted]

Why do you guys care so much if Axl "won" or not? Didn't you get the album you wanted? Didn't it please you? What difference would numbers make on your joy when listening to the album? I know I loved the album and the only thing that saddens me is it's unlikely we'll get more of that.

Define care. Its a side issue. But relevant in terms of his continue success. Its possible that he could have sold more records in 2000 but his career ended as it was a failurw in terms of GNR selling 20 mil. Its perception. In 2008 CD kind did its job in the current landscape. Axl survived more by luck. Now we could get another record and hes touring. If it was released in 2000 by 2004 Axl could be finished with no way to tour.

[classicrawker]

Axl made the album he always wanted to make when he finished Chinese. As a musician, that's pretty great imo.

What makes you so sure he thought it was finished when they pried it from his hands and released it?

After Chinese was released, Axl said so himself. He said something like he was satisfied with how it turned out musically.

I can't find the quote, but I'm certain he said it.

If that is the case don't you find it odd that he has not released the rest of the ChiDem trilogy especially when people like Marc Canter claims he heard 30-35 songs? you would think he would be anxious to get the rest of the material out there or at least insert some of the new songs into the setlist..........

[Mr. Dude]

CD is a fine wine for an audience that drinks Natty Light. They don't care about the taste, they just wanna get drunk.

its kind of a blend 90s vinos. But made the wines are different. Its kike you get Bordeaux and Merlot in 7-11 now not just Carlo Rossi. Add coke zero shaken not stirred.

It was still fermenting in 01. Had to let it age in the cellar a while longer

[wasted]

Axl made the album he always wanted to make when he finished Chinese. As a musician, that's pretty great imo.

What makes you so sure he thought it was finished when they pried it from his hands and released it?

After Chinese was released, Axl said so himself. He said something like he was satisfied with how it turned out musically.

I can't find the quote, but I'm certain he said it.

He said it was the right record it was fine. But wasnt happy with release. Maybe he wanted to put out a double.

But he is self aware. He talked about finishing UYI like hoovering a room, in the end you have to let it go.

I think artists can always see what they would change. Its never finished. Theres no definitive version either. Hate to say I prefer Live Era to the AFD or UYI versions in somecases.

[Rovim]

Axl made the album he always wanted to make when he finished Chinese. As a musician, that's pretty great imo.

What makes you so sure he thought it was finished when they pried it from his hands and released it?

After Chinese was released, Axl said so himself. He said something like he was satisfied with how it turned out musically.

I can't find the quote, but I'm certain he said it.

If that is the case don't you find it odd that he has not released the rest of the ChiDem trilogy especially when people like Marc Canter claims he heard 30-35 songs? you would think he would be anxious to get the rest of the material out there or at least insert some of the new songs into the setlist..........

Not really. We don't know enough to say it's all in Axl's hands. Maybe there are issues with the record company. Maybe Axl wants more money to promote CD ll and the record company doesn't think it's worth it. There could be many reasons for why there is not more released.

[Mr. Dude]

Axl made the album he always wanted to make when he finished Chinese. As a musician, that's pretty great imo.

What makes you so sure he thought it was finished when they pried it from his hands and released it?

After Chinese was released, Axl said so himself. He said something like he was satisfied with how it turned out musically.

I can't find the quote, but I'm certain he said it.

If that is the case don't you find it odd that he has not released the rest of the ChiDem trilogy especially when people like Marc Canter claims he heard 30-35 songs? you would think he would be anxious to get the rest of the material out there or at least insert some of the new songs into the setlist..........

Not really. We don't know enough to say it's all in Axl's hands. Maybe there are issues with the record company. Maybe Axl wants more money to promote CD ll and the record company doesn't think it's worth it. There could be many reasons for why there is not more released.

I think its more about the release. With the time, effort, and struggle put into it I don't think its enough for him to just release it to release it. I think he thinks it deserves to be done right. I imagine that's a point of conflict with the record company. They probably don't wanna expend any more time and money than they have already. Its an even worse industry climate now than it was 5 years ago. Records like that are almost guaranteed to lose money. I'm sure Axl wants it released and presented (what is in his mind) properly.

[Rovim]

Axl made the album he always wanted to make when he finished Chinese. As a musician, that's pretty great imo.

Do you think the mission changed a bit after they wouldnt mix 2000 version?

I think for Axl his mission is the right record as well his ideation of it. The band was also a consideration. I think he was happy with it more than once. But theres all these orher factors.

Like in 99 he was happy label have feeling no hit. He reconsiders. But real Chi dem and SOD would do it for GNR. But with the pressure for 20 mil he reconsiders. At that point his career rested on that. To hit 20 mil without slash. Or its a fail and his career ends in failure. In the end CD reached a point where success was assured. In terms of his career he was safe. Myth, hype, the best buy deal, not mention an album jammed full of strong material. With real GNR worthy songs. And no need to sell 20 mil anymore. Tour for money with career intact. He fucking won.

I think the record changed constantly. It's musical goals, the vision if you will, was probably 'fully' formed a bunch of times.

band members were coming and going, every single one of them bringing their own identity to the project. You have someone like Finck in the band. This guy never really made an album before, but he has a ton of ideas and he was capable of writing a song like Better.

Then you have a guy like Bucket so Axl probably discovered that he can do so much more and so...he did! he tried everything he could, making Bucket record 3 alternative solos for one song and then copy/pasting most of the solos on Chinese.

It changed, cause Axl and in some cases the record company thought he could do better. Bring a guy like Josh Freese, but when he's gone, make a drummer like Brain play Josh's work cause he has a unique feel? then you can just bring another drummer and use 2 drummers in one song cause everything is valid when you finally have the ability to satisfy your musical needs with no regard to anything else really.

In some ways, Axl was musically free for the first time in his life, but he said it was a nightmare cause maybe when there are no limitations, it can make the process of creating even more obsessive and long. No one will say stop, only Axl's inner instinct decided when it was done, and even that was undecided until the very last moment.

As far as commercially speaking, I think the mission changed but you've already covered it.

Edited January 3, 2014 by Rovim