CD deserved a competent audience

[downzy]

Chinese Democracy got what it deserved.

[Michir]

Let's look at what Chinese Democracy offered in an objective way, just the facts:

-A radically different musical style on many songs. Many songs are a great departure musically from anything that the GN'R of the '80s/90s did (for example, Shacklers).

-Outside of Axl and Dizzy, an utterly different lineup from the band which peaked in popularity in the early/mid 1990s.

-No one singular guitar style. On AFD-TSI, you have one thing consistent: Slash. Whether it's Izzy or Gilby, you have the dynamic of ONE strong bluesy lead, and a Stonesy off rhythm guitar, with melodic, fluid soloing and riffy, Aerosmith-esque or Stonesy licks and chops. On CD, you have 5 guitar players at times on the same track, in all different styles; very few melodic, bluesy solos; No clearly defined lead guitar; no Stonesy off rhythm. I'd say GN'R's appeal was 50% vocals and 50% guitars--On CD, it's like 90% Axl and a mix of a bunch of very different guitarists. Slash and Izzy/Gilby were not ALL THAT different in their influences or styles, whereas I'd say Bumblefoot, Buckethead, Paul Tobias, Robin Finck and Richard Fortus all have very different influences and stylings. Basically, there's no one distinct "guitar sound" on the record to get hooked to. On the original records, and in general, Slash has a readily identifiable sound, consistent. That consistency is missing in CD.

-No real bass. While Duff wasn't the best bass guitarist ever, he DID have a distinctive sound and made his presence felt in many of the songs. Whereas on CD, you can barely hear Tommy on most of the songs.

There's other factors at work, but my point is, did CD change too much, too soon? Perhaps if there had been some "transitional" records in between TSI and CD, like records where the band slowly changed and the style slowly drifted toward what is on CD, the public might not have been so "wtf is this?" when CD just came out of the blue after 15 years.

Did CD change too much, too soon? Is that why it failed, at least in part?

[saber_]

It's only a "failure" by GnR standards. It went platinum in many countries around the world, which by most definitions, means it's not a failure.

[ARBeast]

It's only a "failure" by GnR standards. It went platinum in many countries around the world, which by most definitions, means it's not a failure.

/thread. I mean, really.

I loved the record and still do. I even love the part of the record that Dj Ashba is NOT on...

[magisme]

Selling a few million worldwide (and that's the high end of estimates) is nothing to get excited about for a brand like GNR, but sales also aren't the whole story. The failure of CD is in comparison to other GNR albums, yes, but it's as much about it's failure to impact the music scene as it is about its lackluster sales.

[Damn_Smooth]

Selling a few million worldwide (and that's the high end of estimates) is nothing to get excited about for a brand like GNR, but sales also aren't the whole story. The failure of CD is in comparison to other GNR albums, yes, but it's as much about it's failure to impact the music scene as it is about its lackluster sales.

The music scene can suck my balls.

[magisme]

Selling a few million worldwide (and that's the high end of estimates) is nothing to get excited about for a brand like GNR, but sales also aren't the whole story. The failure of CD is in comparison to other GNR albums, yes, but it's as much about it's failure to impact the music scene as it is about its lackluster sales.

The music scene can suck my balls.

Fair enough. It wasn't a comment on whether the album is any good (you know I think it isn't), it was more to point out that the only way it can be considered a success in the context of GNR is if you personally like it. Otherwise, it underwhelmed in every way.

[Damn_Smooth]

Selling a few million worldwide (and that's the high end of estimates) is nothing to get excited about for a brand like GNR, but sales also aren't the whole story. The failure of CD is in comparison to other GNR albums, yes, but it's as much about it's failure to impact the music scene as it is about its lackluster sales.

The music scene can suck my balls.

Fair enough. It wasn't a comment on whether the album is any good (you know I think it isn't), it was more to point out that the only way it can be considered a success in the context of GNR is if you personally like it. Otherwise, it underwhelmed in every way.

True, but I never thought it had a chance of becoming as big as Guns was. I wouldn't think a new album from the classic lineup would either, now or then. Their time of ruling the world is over. Kids are stupid and wouldn't know good music if it bit them in the ass.

[magisme]

I think kids get it right more often than we old people like to admit. They get it right at least as often as we did.

Thing is, CD got a chance cuz it had the GNR name. That's the first couple million right there. If it had been high quality, it would have sold more. Not 20 million more, but more.

[Damn_Smooth]

I think kids get it right more often than we old people like to admit. They get it right at least as often as we did.

Thing is, CD got a chance cuz it had the GNR name. That's the first couple million right there. If it had been high quality, it would have sold more. Not 20 million more, but more.

I disagree. I haven't seen an instance of getting it right in today's pop culture. There is no Guns, or Zeppelin or Stones or anything other than pussy rock for this generation, and they chose for it to be that way. I'm not saying that in the context that I think CD should have done better, because I don't, but this generation sucks.

[wasted]

Well audience would be GNR fans but its not the hard rock GNR are known for, its very very risky album.

And thats when you have to think Axl didnt care about selling records. He made it for himself. A new start if you will.

For everyone struggling to live or succeed. To nail it then get all that money, most would go with the flow play the nostalgia card. A reunion at least. Not try to reinvent the wheel. But he did it almost unapolegetically.

[Rovim]

Well audience would be GNR fans but its not the hard rock GNR are known for, its very very risky album.

And thats when you have to think Axl didnt care about selling records. He made it for himself. A new start if you will.

For everyone struggling to live or succeed. To nail it then get all that money, most would go with the flow play the nostalgia card. A reunion at least. Not try to reinvent the wheel. But he did it almost unapolegetically.

To me Chinese sounds like the record Axl always wanted to make while he was in Guns, after Appetite came out. After he did the old school melting pot thing, taking into consideration the rest of the band, now it was time to do the melting pot sound just with what he personally liked and was influenced by.

I think his ambition was also to take what he could from the Guns sound and make it more modern, at least when compared to the old material. It actually blended pretty well imo, but there were elements that were kinda down played in favor of what Axl wanted to take center stage which is also the amount of styles and sounds and directions he took the music in.

No wonder many people were turned off by it: the album is on one hand a solo album, but on the other it's an alternate version of a Guns album, cause now you can kinda hear a lot of fragmented Guns signature sounds but they are filtered through whatever Axl thought will be interesting to try. And he tried everything.

Axl's answer to the multi choice question that was 'how to make a true Guns album without Izzy, Slash, and Duff?' was all of the above, let's try everything that I think is cool and will fit with what Guns could have been or could be dictated solely by my (Axl's) taste.

but some people think it's better just to choose one and stick with it, or with what worked in the past.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Rovim

[wasted]

Well audience would be GNR fans but its not the hard rock GNR are known for, its very very risky album.

And thats when you have to think Axl didnt care about selling records. He made it for himself. A new start if you will.

For everyone struggling to live or succeed. To nail it then get all that money, most would go with the flow play the nostalgia card. A reunion at least. Not try to reinvent the wheel. But he did it almost unapolegetically.

To me Chinese sounds like the record Axl always wanted to make while he was in Guns, after Appetite came out. After he did the old school melting pot thing, taking into consideration the rest of the band, now it was time to do the melting pot sound just with what he personally liked and was influenced by.

I think his ambition was also to take what he could from the Guns sound and make it more modern, at least when compared to the old material. It actually blended pretty well imo, but there were elements that were kinda down played in favor of what Axl wanted to take center stage which is also the amount of styles and sounds and directions he took the music in.

No wonder many people were turned off by it: the album is on one hand a solo album, but on the other it's an alternate version of a Guns album, cause now you can kinda hear a lot of fragmented Guns signature sounds but they are filtered through whatever Axl thought will be interesting to try. And he tried everything.

Axl's answer to the multi choice question that was 'how to make a true Guns album without Izzy, Slash, and Duff?' was all of the above, let's try everything that I think is cool and will fit with what Guns could have been or could be dictated solely by my (Axl's) taste.

but some people think it's better just to choose one and stick with it, or with what worked in the past.

UYI was the big heres 4 records of the samething blow out. They could have milked that material til 2000. but it came out all in 91. So my take is just cut the guy some slack it ended in 94 or whatever. You can see from Snakepit, Izzy solo, Axls songs like TIL, they basically has license to print money. But Axl is a pain in the ass, but to get to that point, that big they had to do more. It was their big chance. They walked away.

CD is very very indulgent. Each song is its own album. But at the same time each song is pretty tight. Was there really any point in doing another UYI, could they realistically gone another 5 year tour to support?

[Rovim]

If every song is it's own album, then Streets Of Dreams is UYI. So it's like, Yeah, Axl can still write a UYI type song, but moving forward musically was always Axl's instinct.

From AFD to UYI, and now, without Izzy, Duff, and Slash, the need to move forward is still a Gn'R must. If you think about it in a big picture kind of way, Chinese still belongs to the same movie series, only some of the actors changed, and it's been 20 years since the last one was out.

If Slash had the rights to the Gn'R name, where would it be today? Will it be more then a Contraband, which is really not that modern at all. Some Kushner 'modern' sounds here and there not at all as Pitman as Chinese is.

Or Izzy? He would have probably done a Keith kinda thing like he does now with Slash solos. Still not very forward looking.

I have to wonder: the task to take Gn'R in a new, fresh direction was tough as fuck. Impossible with the old line up according to Axl, and a nightmare of a process even with all the resources that were available to him.

Was there a better alternative after the break up musically? A retro record was considered by Axl. As interesting as that may be, I find it risky as a fan and potentially not as exciting as what we got.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Rovim

[wasted]

If every song is it's own album, then Streets Of Dreams is UYI. So it's like, Yeah, Axl can still write a UYI type song, but moving forward musically was always Axl's instinct.

From AFD to UYI, and now, without Izzy, Duff, and Slash, the need to move forward is still a Gn'R must. If you think about it in a big picture kind of way, Chinese still belongs to the same movie series, only some of the actors changed, and it's been 20 years since the last one was out.

If Slash had the rights to the Gn'R name, where would it be today? Will it be more then a Contraband, which is really not that modern at all. Some Kushner 'modern' sounds here and there not at all as Pitman as Chinese is.

Or Izzy? He would have probably done a Keith kinda thing like he does now with Slash solos. Still not very forward looking.

I have to wonder: the task to take Gn'R in a new, fresh direction was tough as fuck. Impossible with the old line up according to Axl, and a nightmare of a process even with all the resources that were available to him.

Was there a better alternative after the break up musically? A retro record was considered by Axl. As interesting as that may be, I find it risky as a fan and potentially not as exciting as what we got.

They could have done UYI type stuff forever like ACDC. TIL and SOD with Slash on guitar. Some Snakepit with Axl on vocals. Ju ju hounds with Axl n Slash boosting it up. But they were in for mid era slump, Stones style. And eventually become the touring nostalgia act like Stones now. They seemed to want to go out like the Pistols. One record and out.

Axls vision was to go bigger. Slash would have been marginalized. He would have do a couple big riffs to open the album. Then basically play guitar solos on Axls ballads. Which what Bucket and Finck did. Maybe Better would be replaced by an Izzy rocker. Duff could do a punk song in place of Shacklers. Then Axl has 4 songs to do mid tempo singles and epics. Repeat on side 2. its not the kind of stuff they wanted to do. Izzy doesnt want to do Coma or Nov Rain does he? Slash doesnt want to do 8 ballads per album. But GNR had become that. And the live shows are ballad heavy. Might as well hire session musicians to do the leg work and go do solo records.

Edited October 24, 2013 by wasted

[classicrawker]

If every song is it's own album, then Streets Of Dreams is UYI. So it's like, Yeah, Axl can still write a UYI type song, but moving forward musically was always Axl's instinct.

From AFD to UYI, and now, without Izzy, Duff, and Slash, the need to move forward is still a Gn'R must. If you think about it in a big picture kind of way, Chinese still belongs to the same movie series, only some of the actors changed, and it's been 20 years since the last one was out. TUV

If Slash had the rights to the Gn'R name, where would it be today? Will it be more then a Contraband, which is really not that modern at all. Some Kushner 'modern' sounds here and there not at all as Pitman as Chinese is.

Or Izzy? He would have probably done a Keith kinda thing like he does now with Slash solos. Still not very forward looking.

I have to wonder: the task to take Gn'R in a new, fresh direction was tough as fuck. Impossible with the old line up according to Axl, and a nightmare of a process even with all the resources that were available to him.

Was there a better alternative after the break up musically? A retro record was considered by Axl. As interesting as that may be, I find it risky as a fan and potentially not as exciting as what we got.

ChiDem is not modern.....there is nothing fresh about it........it was old when it was released....... Edited October 24, 2013 by classicrawker

[wasted]

AFD, UYI, CD are all retro rock records though. I find it hard to pin down what GNR elements they share, dynamics, solos, attitude.

Edited October 24, 2013 by wasted

[magisme]

Fans deserved a competent album.

[Facekicker]

Instead they got a kick in the faaace!

[classicrawker]

AFD, UYI, CD are all retro rock records though. I find it hard to pin down what GNR elements they share, dynamics, solos, attitude.

You're confusing me now mate you claim Axl was trying to take the music in a fresh direction yet now you say ChiDem is retrorock in the same vein as AFD and the UYI albums? you can't have it both ways............

[Rovim]

AFD, UYI, CD are all retro rock records though. I find it hard to pin down what GNR elements they share, dynamics, solos, attitude.

You're confusing me now mate you claim Axl was trying to take the music in a fresh direction yet now you say ChiDem is retrorock in the same vein as AFD and the UYI albums? you can't have it both ways............

I think maybe it's a fresh direction cause it takes a bunch of different elements from genres that are not familiar to the classic Gn'R sound of AFD and UYI, and incorporates them into things you do recognize as being Gn'R, but it's retro cause the NIN, Korn, Nirvana thing are 90's (but there are still Queen and The Beatles that are older influences)

It's similar cause it's a melting pot just like AFD was when it came out or UYI, just the ingredients are different on Chinese.

Fans deserved a competent album.

For me it's what we got with Chinese, but perhaps the fans deserved more then one album in 20 years.

Classicrawker: Modern in relation to previous Gn'R albums, and what Slash did post Guns with Snakepit, Contraband, and his solo albums, and what Izzy and Duff released.

Edited October 24, 2013 by Rovim

[username]

Fans deserved a competent album.

On top of my wishlist is a competent management team.

A competent singer/songwriter would be nice too.

[wasted]

AFD, UYI, CD are all retro rock records though. I find it hard to pin down what GNR elements they share, dynamics, solos, attitude.

You're confusing me now mate you claim Axl was trying to take the music in a fresh direction yet now you say ChiDem is retrorock in the same vein as AFD and the UYI albums? you can't have it both ways............

It's new old ideas which is kind of a new direction for GNR. im not sure its an evolution, its more of a broadening of the horizon. You can imagine most of the songs performed by the classic line up but Buckwt and Finck took them into the 90s.

[moreblack]

In the end it got the audience it got, because it didn't really connect with the masses. There was the fanbase, and they are guaranteed sales, but overall there wasn't much there for the average rock fan, or the average music listener in general. "Bloated" is a term some people have thrown around in regards to GNR since UYI, and as much as it was applicable back then, it's 10x more applicable to CD. Somebody needed to get Axl to reel it in a bit.

[bacardimayne]

#250replies