CD deserved a competent audience

[wasted]

It depends, I went from GNR to grunge, hip hop, nu metal etc. All other bands seem like a footnote to CD, just as Stones and ACDC to me were side notes to AFD. I guess thats the difference, Slash and Izzy were leaning more towards going more retro. Whereas Axl saw the future.

It depends, I went from GNR to grunge, hip hop, nu metal etc. All other bands seem like a footnote to CD, just as Stones and ACDC to me were side notes to AFD. I guess thats the difference, Slash and Izzy were leaning more towards going more retro. Whereas Axl saw the future.

But we're talking about the evolution of a collaboration. Izzy and slash could've kept Axl's grand designs grounded in blues rock. The end result would've been true rock n roll - but for the future. Instead we get nintendo guitar solos.

I honestly think that group could've carried the whole rock world into the next century without breaking a sweat. They were monstrous in their prime.

I don't think they could, UYI was their limit. Izzy wasn't really on board for Estranged and Coma. Slash and Duff didn't really want to do Nov Rain even. I can't see them doing ITW and Prostitute. If you had them play those songs it just turns into UYI. But it seems like they couldn't or didn't want to evolve from that point, they wanted to go back to AFD. Snakepit is kind of grungey rock n roll. Even that would work with Axl on vocals. anything would work if you keep the band together. But that's not what happened.

Indeed, reality sucks. But the things you're saying above are not accepted facts at all.

In fact, Slash specifically points out in his book he would've evolved with Axl even though traditionally he's old school. I agree that he would never have let go of those old school sensibilities, but can't you see that this would've been an ideal situation? He could've reigned in things like Shacklers, and Axl would've made beggars & hangers on into a totally different rock song on a new level.

Neither tune would've sounded or existed as we know them now, but I'd bet my bottom dollar both would be a hundred times better. It's fucking tragic.

There is no accepted facts, as in Slash also said he didn't want to Axl's ballads. When Axl was talking about evolving they all got defensive. So I don't know about that. Slash is like a wild animal to me, he just wanted to rock out. He did his thing and maybe tried to push it through too hard. Maybe he was right. Without Izzy, maybe to do the Snakepit record as GNR was right. just for one record. Then try to get Izzy back. The evidence points to the fact they didn't have anywhere to go and didn't necessarily want to go anywhere. And that might have pleased a lot of people. Just drop down into an AC/DC type machine. But Axl seems cut from a different cloth. To me CD sounds more like AFD than the Snakepit record. Chi dem, Better, TWAT - GNR. Through a different prism but still GNR, doesn't sound like anybody else.

I hear gnr in several of those songs too, but it comes and goes from the verse to he chorus. Better is a great example.

They were indeed in a rut around that time, but I don't think it had to be the end of the line.

maybe it wasn't.

But I see in the material they were doing 5 Oclock, Ju ju hounds. I think they had reach the end, the next thing could have been looser. Im not sure how that fit Axls lyrics. They did sort of anthems. It would be a record anyway. Maybe it should have gone in a more retro direction. Analog, 70s. Get Izzy back. By 2004 Theyd probably be ready to UYI III anyway.

[Black Sabbath]

Bacardi is right.

[onetimer]

I like the first 4 Van Halen Records, and i like all the Motley Crue albums except the one with Corabi. What's wrong with that? Any of those albums i've mentioned are way better than Chinese Democracy!

Well, that is your opinion,... but they ARE NOT ... although you may consider them to be it doesn't mean they are.

For you - maybe. For me - not a chance. For others - i don't care

Eddie Van Halen could be officially promoted to (and be globally celebrated) as the world's best guitarist ever and I still wouldn't give a flyin' fuck about him, Van Halen band or Van Halen songs.

It just doesn't hit / thrill / entertain me at all.

Fortunately music is art, doesn't have any universal scheme.

Art is freedom and reflects individual feelings.

Arguing about which record is better is like arguing about which meal is the best. Peace

[Intercourse]

For me CD perfectly represents Axl's personality both good and bad.

Brilliant ideas about but many got drownded under years of over thinking and constant fidgeting, driven by a deep seated lack of confidence.

Brilliant vocal performances in places but too many lyrics moaning about how his hard life is and how everybody is out to get him.

Too much time wasted and too many missed opportunities - "Better" released as a more organic rock tune in the early naughties could have changed everything for GNR 2.0.

CD leaves me spent and a bit depressed if I listen to it all in one go. I feel like my ears are constantly trying to filter out modern studio noise to hear the quality of the tune beneath.

Edited October 15, 2013 by Intercourse

[wasted]

I feel the same way about Exile on Main Street, I get half way through and it I'm out but then it picks up at the end.

I like how each song on CD is an island that has been equally indulged. Sometimes it seems like each song is about the same thing from a different perspective. CD is a many sided diamond.

[RussTCB]

For me CD perfectly represents Axl's personality both good and bad.

Brilliant ideas about but many got drownded under years of over thinking and constant fidgeting, driven by a deep seated lack of confidence.

Brilliant vocal performances in places but too many lyrics moaning about how his hard life is and how everybody is out to get him.

Too much time wasted and too many missed opportunities - "Better" released as a more organic rock tune in the early naughties could have changed everything for GNR 2.0.

CD leaves me spent and a bit depressed if I listen to it all in one go. I feel like my ears are constantly trying to filter out modern studio noise to hear the quality of the tune beneath.

That's a very interesting point that I'd never thought of before. When the record came out, I used to listen to most or all of it at once. I still listen to the whole album (except CitR) regularly, but I often only do so in 2-3 song bursts. I never really put much thought into why, but I bet your last sentence is exactly why I do that.

[RichardNixon]

If you have ever enjoyed a song by Van Halen, Motley Crue, Skid Row, White Snake or Poison in your adulthood I kindly ask that you refrain from posting in this thread.

I like most of those bands--in addition to Led Zeppelin, The Beatles, The Doors, Leonard Cohen, Bob Dylan, etc.

I would call Chinese Democracy a 10/10, or close to it. I think it's amazing and a lot of fans here don't "get it."

If you have ever enjoyed a song by Van Halen, Motley Crue, Skid Row, White Snake or Poison in your adulthood I kindly ask that you refrain from posting in this thread.

Putting Van Halen in the same league as 80s sleaze rock bands shows how badly trolling you are. At least, I hope for you.

Yup. It's like comparing Mozart with Salieri. Just because they're from the same era doesn't mean you can lump them together as equals.

Who in the hell are some of you trying to kid? It was a pile of shit and most people recognized that. Nothing more, nothing less.

I don't know one person outside of the forums that liked the album, but I know many who listened to it.

I think it's a great album, that's my opinion. Why does that POV upset you?

Edited October 15, 2013 by RichardNixon

[Guest cbgnr666]

CD is the only gnr album that is decent listening from top to bottom,everything else except UYI 1 is a skip fest.imo

Edited October 15, 2013 by cbgnr666

[wasted]

CD is at least interesting. The other albums are great if your drinking but as an album to put on headphones CD wins. If they released another Id be excited as no other bands are doing stuff like it. Exciting dynamics mixed with risk taking with genre and sound.

Edited October 15, 2013 by wasted

[classicrawker]

Yeaaah, cuz it's soooo intelligent and it's SOOOO difficult to see what Axls trying to do with it, it's such a puzzle. Oh my God, a trip-hop intro, call the intellectuals!

Fuck off, that's not what I was saying at all. Like I said, at best it's a solid to good album, but it gets such a horribly shit rep because the only people who've bothered to listen to it are 80s rock fans who wanted a Poison record. A large amount of the people who relentlessly bash CD actually think Slash's 2010 album was good.

I don't consider it "intellectual" or anything of the sort, just a decent modern rock record with about 4-5 enjoyable songs and probably more if I hadn't played the absolute shit out of it from 2008-10.

You make it sound like people hated it. It sold more than 3 million copies world wide at a time of falling CD format sales and got very good critical reviews so it was hardly overlooked.

I don't consider it a GnR album but am not afraid to admit it has some good music on it and I like VH and a lot of 80's hair metal.

But lets be honest if Axl had not released it as a GnR album it would not have sold as many units as it did and really would have been ignored for the most part. Don't underestimate the power of the GnR brand name............

RichardNixon said: I would call Chinese Democracy a 10/10, or close to it. I think it's amazing and a lot of fans here don't "get it."

Seriously we are talking about a rock album here mate...... if you have to think that hard to "get it" maybe there is nothing there to "get"

Edited October 15, 2013 by classicrawker

[stumbleine]

right on,Bacardimayne.

CD did not reach it's intended audience.

Axl had taken the music in a new direction and it was NOT

GNR anymore.

the people who bought it,yes,expected something 80s because of the fucking name.

the name issue has enormous consequences.

everything in it's wrong place.

[dickdasterdly10000]

Has to be agreed that VH is utter crap.

i don't care if he plays his guitar with a power drill or not or whether Sammy or Dave is singing.

Complete drivel.

CD is a boss album. TWAT, IRS, Prostitute all up there with any GNR tune.

Times and the markets have changed. That was why CD didn't go mental (although 3m copies is decent).

Like Axl - don't give a rat's arse whether it sold well or not.

Word.

[wasted]

The only downside is how its related to old GNR. Or is that whats good about it?

[Bards]

This sounds like when politicians lose and blame the moral or intellectual failings of the electorate.

CD wasn't a smash hit because not enough people liked it. Not because of any lack of "competence" of "mulletfucks".

Most people who gave it a fair listen had a similar opinion to "Meh. It's ok, couple decent songs, but really overproduced and jumbled".

It's not like people are going to listen to it again and go "A-ha! Now I get it! It's brilliant!"

[Apollo]

Bacardi - please answer without insults, if possible.

"""CD didn't have a competent audience. """.........So the 14 million people who listened to it on Myspace, the 3.5 million people who purchased the album, and the millions of people who have seen GnR touring over the last decade.........none of those people made up a "competent" audience? Where was this audience that you speak of, and why didn't they hear the album? And who specifically is this audience if it isn't the fans who have supported the band since the 80s.

"""The people who would normally be interested in what Axl wanted to put out weren't because he stuck with the GNR name""".........So you agreed that the majority of the buying public for GnR were old time fans......but here you are saying that old time fans weren't interested because Axl kept the name? And, like several people in here have said, fans of GnR/Axl gave the album a shot. They listened to it at least once. You really think there is a high number of people who 1, haven't heard CD to this day and 2, were people who loved GnR/Axl enough to buy their work but wouldn't buy an Axl led GnR album? I really believe that's a myth.

"and instead he had to try and please a bunch of mulletfucks"" lol, and you said that you didn't insult anybody in your post. Who are mullet*cks anyway? Does that describe a certain age of poster? What exactly are you saying here.

"""who think Eddie Van Halen is the best technical guitarist in history.""" Again, a huge over generalization on your part. I've never seen anybody say that EVH is the best technical guitar player in history. Millions of people love his work though.

"""It's like if someone wrote a really good book but the only people who read it were comic book fans who wanted it to be like Spiderman.""" Maybe. But aren't people allowed to like and dislike music for whatever reason they want? Are there albums out there you dislike? Should you be criticized for your reasons? Fans don't like albums for a variety of reasons. People dislike Metallica because one album had a weird drum sound. Who cares, really, what people's reasons are. Either you enjoy the music or you don't.

"""but I do think the reception it got is horribly unfair""" It got pretty good reviews by most of the professional reviews that I saw in major publications. The album also sold pretty well, 3.5 million copies. So what was "horribly unfair" about its reception? Can you give some specific examples (and not huge generalities)

""""""""And it deserves an audience that isn't looking for an 80s nostalgia album like the vast majority of people who listened to it were expecting/demanding.""" Wow. Did you do a poll to find out this information? A bit presumptuous of you to think you know what the "vast majority of people" expected from the album. How did you find out this information?

Also, what kind of an audience does an album "deserve?" Please give me examples of the audience that CD deserved........and your opinion as to WHY that audience didn't listen to the album. (Keeping in mind that millions bought the album, millions saw the band on tour, millions listened on myspace, millions have watched the youtube video, and the album has been out five years).............where is this mystery audience and why has CD been kept away from them.

"""It's a solid 7-8 out of 10 and the best tracks are really fucking good."""" I'd give it a solid 9 out of 10.

""""Almost everyone I've talked to about the album, even those who hate it, admit that there are one or two tracks on it that they like""" so your friends have heard the album..so they aren't part of the "audience that CD deserved."

*****************

I don't understand why people can't just accept the reality that was the life of CD.

Why the need to constantly make excuses and blame other people for the album not living up to expectations.

It's the label's fault, fans weren't smart enough to appreciate it, people didn't buy it because slash isn't in the band, etc, etc, etc.

The album did pretty well for a singer who broke up his classic band, didn't release any music for 15 years and shunned the media and his fans for years at a time. It sold over 3 million copies, has allowed Axl to tour the classic songs and make a living off of them, and people still go to see the shows. That's it.

[wasted]

Its kind of built into it, the people who would still be interested in a GNR album after all this time would have been hard rock and classic fans, but the record is aimed at a more general 90s Alternative audience who are listening to NIN and Korn or Soundgarden.

[Intercourse]

I think Axl had no idea whom CD was "intended for".

He was desperate to stay relevant, even ahead of the curve. He had millions of dollars to play with and all of the indulgence a man could hope for from the industry. I think Axl was heavily influenced by the way U2 re-invented themselves and came out with Actung Baby when they were staring down the abyss of dinosour rock irrlelevance.

So..Axl threw the lot at the album and as a result it sags under the weight of 15 years of tinkering and procrastination.

CD is the mirror image of all things Axl: wild ambition, ego & arrogance mixed with huge insecurity, heartbreak, self pity and obsession.

None of the best and worst that these traits would bring to the music was hemmed in as Axl was now the uber-BOSS of GNR and answered to nobody.

Back in the day, the other "equals" in GNR helped manage his energies in songs, without them all of the "Axl stuff" got turned up to eleven giving us CD.

Its a very brave effort but delivered in ridiculous circumstances.

[classicrawker]

right on,Bacardimayne.

CD did not reach it's intended audience.

Axl had taken the music in a new direction and it was NOT

GNR anymore.

the people who bought it,yes,expected something 80s because of the fucking name.

the name issue has enormous consequences.

everything in it's wrong place.

My point exactly it sold as well as it did because it was packaged as a GnR album but do you really think it would have gotten the same attention or sold even half as many units if it had been called the "Axl Rose Band" or even some other obsure band name without Axl's name prominent in the packaging?

IMHO it would have gotten even less attention in that case as the material is just not that strong. There is just nothing to "get" which is why it sunk into obscurity shortly after release and got basically zero radio play.

There have been many lead singers, see Mick Jagger, who have gone solo and their albums just were not as good as those from their old band so people did not buy them and there was no radio play

Some people here just can't deal with the fact that it just is not that good and was it was already dated when released..............

Edited October 16, 2013 by classicrawker

[wasted]

CD was released in the cd sales holocaust.

[volcano62]

Bacardi - please answer without insults, if possible.

"""CD didn't have a competent audience. """.........So the 14 million people who listened to it on Myspace, the 3.5 million people who purchased the album, and the millions of people who have seen GnR touring over the last decade.........none of those people made up a "competent" audience? Where was this audience that you speak of, and why didn't they hear the album? And who specifically is this audience if it isn't the fans who have supported the band since the 80s.

"""The people who would normally be interested in what Axl wanted to put out weren't because he stuck with the GNR name""".........So you agreed that the majority of the buying public for GnR were old time fans......but here you are saying that old time fans weren't interested because Axl kept the name? And, like several people in here have said, fans of GnR/Axl gave the album a shot. They listened to it at least once. You really think there is a high number of people who 1, haven't heard CD to this day and 2, were people who loved GnR/Axl enough to buy their work but wouldn't buy an Axl led GnR album? I really believe that's a myth.

"and instead he had to try and please a bunch of mulletfucks"" lol, and you said that you didn't insult anybody in your post. Who are mullet*cks anyway? Does that describe a certain age of poster? What exactly are you saying here.

"""who think Eddie Van Halen is the best technical guitarist in history.""" Again, a huge over generalization on your part. I've never seen anybody say that EVH is the best technical guitar player in history. Millions of people love his work though.

"""It's like if someone wrote a really good book but the only people who read it were comic book fans who wanted it to be like Spiderman.""" Maybe. But aren't people allowed to like and dislike music for whatever reason they want? Are there albums out there you dislike? Should you be criticized for your reasons? Fans don't like albums for a variety of reasons. People dislike Metallica because one album had a weird drum sound. Who cares, really, what people's reasons are. Either you enjoy the music or you don't.

"""but I do think the reception it got is horribly unfair""" It got pretty good reviews by most of the professional reviews that I saw in major publications. The album also sold pretty well, 3.5 million copies. So what was "horribly unfair" about its reception? Can you give some specific examples (and not huge generalities)

""""""""And it deserves an audience that isn't looking for an 80s nostalgia album like the vast majority of people who listened to it were expecting/demanding.""" Wow. Did you do a poll to find out this information? A bit presumptuous of you to think you know what the "vast majority of people" expected from the album. How did you find out this information?

Also, what kind of an audience does an album "deserve?" Please give me examples of the audience that CD deserved........and your opinion as to WHY that audience didn't listen to the album. (Keeping in mind that millions bought the album, millions saw the band on tour, millions listened on myspace, millions have watched the youtube video, and the album has been out five years).............where is this mystery audience and why has CD been kept away from them.

"""It's a solid 7-8 out of 10 and the best tracks are really fucking good."""" I'd give it a solid 9 out of 10.

""""Almost everyone I've talked to about the album, even those who hate it, admit that there are one or two tracks on it that they like""" so your friends have heard the album..so they aren't part of the "audience that CD deserved."

*****************

I don't understand why people can't just accept the reality that was the life of CD.

Why the need to constantly make excuses and blame other people for the album not living up to expectations.

It's the label's fault, fans weren't smart enough to appreciate it, people didn't buy it because slash isn't in the band, etc, etc, etc.

The album did pretty well for a singer who broke up his classic band, didn't release any music for 15 years and shunned the media and his fans for years at a time. It sold over 3 million copies, has allowed Axl to tour the classic songs and make a living off of them, and people still go to see the shows. That's it.

You don't get it

[wasted]

Yolo

[rockerman]

I wasnt fucking looking for a Poison record. Im a big fan of the 80's scene as well. I expected a GNR record and what I got was a nice experiment on how to kill a vibe. GNR were not just another hair band..they had a thing going that was putting them into the legend status with other iconic bands.

If GNR 86-93 were a Ferrari then the least expectation one could have would be that GNR 2000+ would be supercharged...but instead it barely putters along relatively speaking.

People did hear it.. and they didnt respond to it. People were kinda sorta introduced to it but it just didnt roll. Rock stations were not being flooded for requests and the album itself came and went in a blink largely because I dont think it was the CD that the world expected. People do hear it and the songs just dont get them fired up. Its just background muzak to many people. A desperate attempt by Axl to hold on for another 15 seconds of fame.

It was heard but not in the manner just or due a GNR record. The thing became a joke before it even hit the scene, The songs appealed to a very small percentage of people and the for people like me..it just didnt work. NOT because I expected AFD2 but because the songs as they were presented just lacked something and some of them just outright sucked. No amount of loyalty or patience can justify me being fed shit and reporting that it sure tasted like candy.

Granted in this market you can fool millions of people into buying and listening to shit music but the expectations on Axl were just WAY to hard for him to achieve.

[Apollo]

Explain it then Volcano.

ONE TIME - I'm literally begging you. I've done this before and you never do it.

Please..........explain to me what I don't get. Explain to me where I'm wrong.

One paragraph. Explain to me what I don't get.

Please.

[saber_]

You don't get how to quote people properly for starters. Maybe he should start by explaining the quote function.

[jmapelian]

I think CD needed a more competent performer than axl; more competent production; and much more competent promotion before you can slag on the facct it needed a more competent audience.