Chinese Democracy Remastered...

[RussTCB]

Put it out on Blu Ray audio with all the mixes and let the fans mess with it on their computers. Brian Wilson had talked about doing that with "Smile" but as PC software, and we know Trent Reznor had done it before, this way you'd get to have fun messing around with the songs and coming up with your own mix, and the band makes a few bucks in the process.

I would LOVE a blu-ray audio in any form. Even it were just the stereo mix uncompressed, I'd be happy as all hell.

[niceguy]

Lots of misused terminology in this thread.

The mastering on chi dem is actually extremely good: dynamics are preserved, because they didn't redline the limiter. Listen to an avg pop song from today and then listen to chi dem, and you'll find chi dem to be a lot quieter. Rather, the "softer" parts of the song are quieter and the "harder" parts if the song are louder, so to speak.

I don't want to go into the science behind limiters in mastering, so go read it on wiki if you're interested.

The muddiness in chi dem is due strictly to the production: there are just too many layers of audio. With so many layers, you get pile ups in the frequency spectrum, which our brains interpret as muddiness.

The best way I can put this is that chi dem has noodling solos over almost every single part of the songs. Just fucking STOP NOODLING AND GUITAR-CENTER MASTURBATING for one god damn minute, and the frequency spectrum won't be so piled on. And that will allow more clarity to shine thru the songs.

But noooooo, Bumby needs to show, at all times, that he can play a million miles per hour. That's the difference between a soulless masturbator like Bumby and a talented guitarist like EVH: you have to know when to fucking STOP.

[Mr. Dude]

Lots of misused terminology in this thread.

The mastering on chi dem is actually extremely good: dynamics are preserved, because they didn't redline the limiter. Listen to an avg pop song from today and then listen to chi dem, and you'll find chi dem to be a lot quieter. Rather, the "softer" parts of the song are quieter and the "harder" parts if the song are louder, so to speak.

I don't want to go into the science behind limiters in mastering, so go read it on wiki if you're interested.

The muddiness in chi dem is due strictly to the production: there are just too many layers of audio. With so many layers, you get pile ups in the frequency spectrum, which our brains interpret as muddiness.

The best way I can put this is that chi dem has noodling solos over almost every single part of the songs. Just fucking STOP NOODLING AND GUITAR-CENTER MASTURBATING for one god damn minute, and the frequency spectrum won't be so piled on. And that will allow more clarity to shine thru the songs.

But noooooo, Bumby needs to show, at all times, that he can play a million miles per hour. That's the difference between a soulless masturbator like Bumby and a talented guitarist like EVH: you have to know when to fucking STOP.

I've heard some people call EVH the father of soulless shredding.

[axldoyle]

Lots of misused terminology in this thread.

The mastering on chi dem is actually extremely good: dynamics are preserved, because they didn't redline the limiter. Listen to an avg pop song from today and then listen to chi dem, and you'll find chi dem to be a lot quieter. Rather, the "softer" parts of the song are quieter and the "harder" parts if the song are louder, so to speak.

I don't want to go into the science behind limiters in mastering, so go read it on wiki if you're interested.

The muddiness in chi dem is due strictly to the production: there are just too many layers of audio. With so many layers, you get pile ups in the frequency spectrum, which our brains interpret as muddiness.

The best way I can put this is that chi dem has noodling solos over almost every single part of the songs. Just fucking STOP NOODLING AND GUITAR-CENTER MASTURBATING for one god damn minute, and the frequency spectrum won't be so piled on. And that will allow more clarity to shine thru the songs.

But noooooo, Bumby needs to show, at all times, that he can play a million miles per hour. That's the difference between a soulless masturbator like Bumby and a talented guitarist like EVH: you have to know when to fucking STOP.

Great! That's it exactly, "noodling" around by bumblefoot compromised a lot of the songs, even Buckethead refrained from shredding his fingers to the bone for most of the album! Although some people see this as Buckethead not playing at his best I actually disagree, some of my favourite bucket songs are where he refrains and uses more soul and then transitions into a fast solo if he solo's at all, whitewash, padmasana and soothsayer would be examples of what I mean.

Edited December 19, 2013 by axldoyle

[TeeJay410]

Production wise it suffers from many of the same issues as UYI. With so much going on in each track, it's difficult to get a clean mix, or a mix where it still sounds like a rock band. However Chinese Democracy's mix is far better than UYI.

I do agree with what someone said that the emptier version of cd the song was better. I also liked just the low vocal octave in the verses. When you hear the '99 or '02 demos, the songs are better because a shit ton of layers aren't there to distract from the music. The excessiveness doesn't make for the easiest listen.

[niceguy]

Lots of misused terminology in this thread.

to

Great! That's it exactly, "noodling" around by bumblefoot compromised a lot of the songs, even Buckethead refrained from shredding his fingers to the bone for most of the album! Although some people see this as Buckethead not playing at his best I actually disagree, some of my favourite bucket songs are where he refrains and uses more soul and then transitions into a fast solo if he solo's at all, whitewash, padmasana and soothsayer would be examples of what I mean.

I got into bucket way after chi dem. To be frank, after hearing him on chi dem, I hated Bucket, and I thought he ruined all the songs. Later, I found out it was actually Robin and Bumbles playing which I dislike so much, they're the ones who are doing the completely disharmonic bends and shredding wankery all over the songs.

Then I listened to Buckets album Colma, which is just stunning. There's no shredding, just pure melody, rivaling some of the best classical music. "For Mom" is a standout for me.

[WhazUp]

The mastering is actually pretty great. The sound quality of everything recorded isn't the issue, like people here have already said I think that the issue is that at times there were too many parts going on at once (Catcher being the obvious example) where it just sounds bloated

[Silent Jay]

Do you guys agree that alot of Bumblefoot's additions to the album (although they were technically impressive) seemed to change the direction that the previous members were taking it. For example his fretless solos and his addition to chinese' verses, I personally preferred bucketheads original Riad solo and I thought that the hollow verses of Chinese actually added to the atmosphere in the song.

I was thinking about it while i was listening the Antiquiet leaks months ago (no BBF on here), his jobs on putting some fire and ice to the songs was well done like on Chinese, Shackler or Scraped, but the guitar parts on IRS, Prostitute or Street Of Dreams were some much clear without him. There's too much guitar players.

Edited December 19, 2013 by Silent Jay

[EvH]

It has absolutely nothing to do with the mastering. CD has probably the best mastering of any rock album from this century.

This is a question of overblown production. VERY different things, don't give stupid ideas to the management if there was to be another record, I don't want a brickwalled mess ala Live Era.

Edited December 19, 2013 by EvH

[Mr. Dude]

CD is such a strong album that I can't find anything to criticize so I guess I'll hate on the mastering.

I respect that, but personally I think the mastering is great, I actually think the production is great too. When I hear people say its overproduced I feel like they've missed the point. Its like when someone listens to Neil Young play guitar and starts talking about (lack of) technicality, I feel like they just don't get it. Neil's playing is all about feel so it doesn't make sense to analyze his guitar playing like you would Steve Vai. That's not what he's trying to do and that's not his strength. So when people harp on Axl/CD for being over-produced or bloated it seems like they've missed the boat and are citing as a weakness what is actually the very strength of the record (and Axl as an artist). Axl isn't Neil Young. GNR is not the Ramones. Restraint isn't Axl's strongpoint. Grandiosity is his forte.

Edited December 28, 2013 by Mr. Dude

[HollyWoodRose84]

The dual vocal track on Chinese Democracy ruins that song. If it was sung the same way he sings it live, it would have been perfect. If you listen to how he sings most of the CD songs now, they are noticeably different and IMO sound better live than they do on the actual album. Sorry, CD, Madagascar, Shackler's are great live but sound waaaaayyyyyy overproduced on the album. Just my two cents.

Edited December 19, 2013 by HollyWoodRose84

[stonegunner]

arent the only awards the album won relating to production?? i may be wrong on this but i think that answers the question.

[Silent Jay]

arent the only awards the album won relating to production?? i may be wrong on this but i think that answers the question.

not sure about it.

[Roush]

Leave Chinese the way it is. Whether you love/hate it -- it is a reflection of the people, era, and energy of its inception.

Changing it would only make the record more disingenuous than it already is. The schizophrenic layering is a manifestation of Axl's insecurities, and fickle perfectionism. It is the quintessential Axl record in that regard. And a case study in album production.

[Rovim]

Leave Chinese the way it is. Whether you love/hate it -- it is a reflection of the people, era, and energy of its inception.

Changing it would only make the record more disingenuous than it already is. The schizophrenic layering is a manifestation of Axl's insecurities, and fickle perfectionism. It is the quintessential Axl record in that regard. And a case study in album production.

I thought is was a really honest record from Axl. Pretty happy with it the way it is.

[Demon Wolf]

Bob Ludwig mastered it and he's the best in the business. You can have issues with the production but the actual mastering is pretty great. Not too compressed, plenty of room. I like it.

He speaks about a little bit, 6:30 into this

Edited December 20, 2013 by Demon Wolf

[salx]

I love the songs on Chinese Democracy but it is an awful sounding album as far as production is concerned compared to the rock albums that are coming out today. New bands are putting out better sounding albums than CD in five months of production with 1% of the budget.

[DR DOOM]

Do you guys agree that alot of Bumblefoot's additions to the album (although they were technically impressive) seemed to change the direction that the previous members were taking it. For example his fretless solos and his addition to chinese' verses, I personally preferred bucketheads original Riad solo and I thought that the hollow verses of Chinese actually added to the atmosphere in the song.

Absolutely.

I loathe Ron's additions to the album, and while I love the leaked versions I hate the ones on the album, with the title track, Riad and IRS the main offenders.

I think IRS suffers the most though, that incessant, pointless noodling through the whole song just chokes it.

I can understand Ron not saying no to playing on the album, but his contributions suck.

[RussTCB]

The only thing Ron added that bothers me is the guitars on The Blues. Other than that I dig everything he added.