Slash Oldie But Goodie: Slash bashing 'Sympathy for the Devil'

[Lio]

No, but I thought we were talking about what destroyed the band. I don't believe that the videos had anything to do with that.

[SoulMonster]

People had various opinions on what destroyed the band, because "the band" means different things to all of us. For DieselDaisy the band was destroyed in the early 90s because it deviated too much away from the simple, hard-rocking version it was in the 80s. For many others the band was destroyed in the late 90s when the UYI lineup broke down. For some others in mid 2000 when Finck left for good. And for others post-2008 when the band focused on touring and not releasing a follow-up to CD. But of course the band isn't destroyed, it is still active, it is just our own acceptance of how the band has developed over the years that varies.

As for why the UYI lineup broke down; various reasons including incompatible personalities (with Axl being very difficult to work with), Axl taking control, differences in musical direction, Izzy having left, drugs and booze.

[dalsh327]

The rest, I agree. I would also add the cheesy videos (Don't Cry, November Rain and Estranged). That was all Axl. You can see the reluctance of the other guys in the making ofs - this is one of the reasons Stradlin bailed. These fuckin ruined that band's credibility as far as I am concerned.

You may find the videos cheesy, but they were a huge part of GNR's success. We grew up with MTV and watched it 24/7. The videos were immensely popular and I'm sure attracted lots of new fans. Maybe they didn't quite fit with the dangerous band image, but I'm sure that the videos contributed a lot to GNR's success back then.

The videos were huge, and they also found a way to recoup what they spent making them with the documentaries on home video, which was how Michael Jackson did with the "Thriller" video. You also get 2-3 hours of interviews.

GNR were an MTV band, it made them global superstars and I don't think AFD would have done as well if there hadn't been videos made. The You Tube hits make it seem like people still love the videos.

GNR were a danger to themselves, and the crowds were way more dangerous. A bad GNR show from back in the day is still better than most bands on a good night.

[DieselDaisy]

The cheesy videos made the band look like a complete joke. True, they were financially successful and appeared lots on MTV but then, Britney Spears has also produced music videos which are similarly successful. What is your point? The ‘trilogy’ is quite awful and contains some excruciatingly embarrassing moments such as, GN’R’s ham fisted acting (e.g. the search for the missing ring in November Rain) and Axl’s pseudo-philosophical ramblings. It is funny because at the exact time Nevermind arrived, created by the band who very much eclipsed Guns N' Roses in the public consciousness, Guns N’ Roses were beginning to do the exact thing that made Nirvana look, so much more relevant: pompous epics with bloated '’look at me, I am a rock star with a limo’’ bullshit. It was like a lamb to the slaughter in regards to, posterity. In theory, Guns could have met the grunge challenge on a fairly level playing field by retaining more of the, Stradlin inspired Appetite-feel on Illusion, and dispensing with those ghastly videos altogether.

[ColdHeartBreaker]

Izzy is hugely overrated.

[DieselDaisy]

It is rather weird you say that because the originals never wrote another note again after he left, and actually resorted to bringing him back to write in 1995. Additionally, both Slash, Duff and Matt (at the beginnings of VR) and Axl have continued to seek Stradlin's services, as a writer and guest-performer respectively.

Overrated by who? Axl, Slash and Duff? Face facts, the original GN’R could not write a song to save their life without Izzy Stradlin. They were essentially fucked on the songwriting front the day he left in late-1991.

[Lio]

The cheesy videos made the band look like a complete joke. True, they were financially successful and appeared lots on MTV but then, Britney Spears has also produced music videos which are similarly successful. What is your point? The ‘trilogy’ is quite awful and contains some excruciatingly embarrassing moments such as, GN’R’s ham fisted acting (e.g. the search for the missing ring in November Rain) and Axl’s pseudo-philosophical ramblings. It is funny because at the exact time Nevermind arrived, created by the band who very much eclipsed Guns N' Roses in the public consciousness, Guns N’ Roses were beginning to do the exact thing that made Nirvana look, so much more relevant: pompous epics with bloated '’look at me, I am a rock star with a limo’’ bullshit. It was like a lamb to the slaughter in regards to, posterity. In theory, Guns could have met the grunge challenge on a fairly level playing field by retaining more of the, Stradlin inspired Appetite-feel on Illusion, and dispensing with those ghastly videos altogether.

My point was merely that according to me, the videos didn't contribute to the breakdown of the band, and I was thinking more about Slash in that instance. But, yeah, Izzy didn't like them and it may have been one of the reasons he left, how the band had become or was evolving. I have nothing against the videos, although I liked DC the most, NR was ott but great in its own way, and Estranged was like galaxies over the top. But I know there were many early fans that hated them, you're right.

EDIT: I agree with you that Izzy can't be overrated. I remember people saying it was over when he left, and in retrospect, I think they were right, at least that stage of GNR was over.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Lio

[SoulMonster]

That's a little exaggerated. Many songs off AFD ad UYI were written without the help of Izzy. I am not saying he isn't highly underrated, and he is my favourite member, but he wasn't that vital in the sense that he didn't bring anything particularly unique that couldn't have been found with lots of decent song-writers. He made rather simple songs that worked as a scaffold for the rest of the band, but he was a crucial part of the band simply because he made those songs. Simple songs with some catchy hooks, Axl vocal melodies and vocal delivery, Slash awesome playing, and the stomp of Duff and Steven became legendary. The reason why he was so important is that the rest of the band just weren't as productive in writing such songs.

[DieselDaisy]

But that is the hardest thing to capture of anything: simplicity. Listen to Patience. Patience is a masterpiece yet it is just a bunch of basic chords (C, G etc) and a nice lyrical melody line, but, why did nobody write Patience earlier? The main 'You Could Be Mine' riff is just a simply 2-string blues-based string-bend number, yet, nobody wrote that earlier! It is much easy to pile on a load of overdubs and shred onto something a la CD. Simplicity is the hallmark of brilliance - at least when it comes to rock n’ roll.

That is what Izzy brought to the band.

I would actually argue the reverse to most people here. In my opinion, within the context of (old) Guns N’ Roses, Axl and Slash are overrated whereas Izzy and Steven are underrated (Duff is sort of, rated as he deserves).

[Chuzeville]

It is rather weird you say that because the originals never wrote another note again after he left, and actually resorted to bringing him back to write in 1995. Additionally, both Slash, Duff and Matt (at the beginnings of VR) and Axl have continued to seek Stradlin's services, as a writer and guest-performer respectively.

Overrated by who? Axl, Slash and Duff? Face facts, the original GN’R could not write a song to save their life without Izzy Stradlin. They were essentially fucked on the songwriting front the day he left in late-1991.

I think they're all over rated, really. Guns n'Roses is a clear case of the whole being greated than the sum of his parts. Back in the days, I thought Axl was the one doing the emulsifying, but what happened in the last 20 years proved me wrong--he wasn't able to do it with different ingredients anyway!

As far as early solo albums go, I gotta say I derived more pleasure from Slash's and Duff's ones. If anything, I still think Believe In Me is the one that's closest to GnR.

Edited May 19, 2014 by Chuzeville

[magisme]

Izzy is hugely overrated.

The band hasn't produced anything good without him, though.

[dalsh327]

If Slash and Axl had agreed to do what Outkast did with Speakerboxx/The Love Below, where one album was the Izzy/Slash/Duff heavy songs, and the other album was heavily Axl's ballads and industrial stuff, they probably would have been able to stay together. It would have been their White Album, done one more tour and maybe one more album to part ways on.

[John Bonham]

Izzy is hugely overrated.

The band hasn't produced anything good without him, though.

The band died the minute Izzy left.

[maynard]

Izzy is hugely overrated.

The band hasn't produced anything good without him, though.

The band died the minute Izzy left.

And his hability to create great songs died when he left the band. It's amazing how Izzy, Slash, Axl and Duff aren't able to create one single memorable song (they do have some good songs) without help from each other. The only difference is that while it takes 1 month for Izzy to release a shitty song, it takes 10 years to Axl.

[Estranged Reality]

From Mick Wall's W. Axl Rose book :

According to Matt, he walked out after a massive argument with Axl - about Slash. They had been talking in the studio when Paul Huge remarked he had seen Slash play with his band, the Snakepit, on the David Letterman show the previous night and that it had sounded like shit and looked like shit. Says Matt now: He was just bagging on Slash. I said, 'Listen motherfucker, when I'm sitting in the room, I'd appreciate it if you don't fucking say shit about Slash. He's still my friend. You can't even hold a fucking candle to that fucking guy. He's got more talent in his little toe than you, motherfucker, shut up!' And then Axl got in my face. I said, 'You know what, Axl, man? You're fucking smoking crack if you think this band's GN'R without Slash. You're gonna go play 'Sweet Child O' Mine' with fucking Paul Huge? Sorry, dude, it ain't gonna sound right. Fucking 'Welcome to the Jungle' without Slash?' [Axl] says, 'I'm Guns N' Roses - I don't need Slash'. I said, 'You know what? No, you aren't'. We got into a big pissy match; it went onto a bunch of other bullshit for about another 20 minutes. And then he finally said, 'Well, are you gonna fucking quit?' I said, 'No, I don't fucking quit'. And then he said, 'Well, then you're fucking fired.

Paul Huge chased me out to the parking lot and said, 'What the fuck, man? Just come back in and apologise!' I said, 'Fuck you, Yoko! I'm gone!' And that was it. I went home to my fucking six-level palatial rock star estate with two elevators and my Porsche. I was producing a band called Candlebox at the time, they were living in my house. And I said, 'I just got fired'. They said, 'Ah, fuck he'll call you back', and I said, 'No, not this time'. Cos he'd fired me before but he always called me back. I said, 'No, I don't think so'. And about a month later I got the letter from the lawyers.

I've never believed a word Mick Wall has said about GN'R and have always thought that he was so offended by Get in the Ring, that, fueled by a planet-sized butthurt, he vowed to trash Axl in any way he could, whenever he could. Wouldn't be surprised if 100% of his book is made up.

if those quotes were inaccurate i'm sure matt would have disowned them by now. mick wall definitely likes bashing axl and has a reason to do so given their history, but i don't doubt the veracity of that story.

[RandallFlagg]

Slash's grimacing expression before you start the video is what face he made when he watched golden gods.

[EvH]

But that is the hardest thing to capture of anything: simplicity. Listen to Patience. Patience is a masterpiece yet it is just a bunch of basic chords (C, G etc) and a nice lyrical melody line, but, why did nobody write Patience earlier? The main 'You Could Be Mine' riff is just a simply 2-string blues-based string-bend number, yet, nobody wrote that earlier! It is much easy to pile on a load of overdubs and shred onto something a la CD. Simplicity is the hallmark of brilliance - at least when it comes to rock n roll.

That is what Izzy brought to the band.

I would actually argue the reverse to most people here. In my opinion, within the context of (old) Guns N Roses, Axl and Slash are overrated whereas Izzy and Steven are underrated (Duff is sort of, rated as he deserves).

Calling Patience a masterpiece is stretching it quite a lot.

[Free Bird]

They all need each other. Izzy has the ability to write good, harmonic songs but without Axl's and Slash's input they aren't something special.

[SoulMonster]

I don't think they really need Izzy. He was great but he is king of a dime a dozen (I hope I used that expression correctly). There are many who can string together nice songs which can be lifted to a different level by the great embellishments that Axl and Slash added. It doesn't have to be Izzy. The problem is that Axl is rather finicky about who he writes with (that's why he didn't write with Gilby and why he forced Paul on Slash and Duff) - but he did write some great songs with other guys on CD, proving that he isn't entirely hopeless. Slash, unfortunately, has settled on writing songs himself, instead of just focusing on adding lead guitar to other peoples' songs to which in my opinion he is much more suited.

NB: If anything I think it is Izzy who needs those guys, because without them his songs become a bit bland. So back in the AFD lineup they were all rather important because when you took any away the whole band suffered a lot. What Steven, Duff and Izzy brought to the band was great, but even more so because in the band it was unique; but only Axl and Slash brought something to the band that was truly spectacular and wasn't replaceable.

Edited May 19, 2014 by SoulMonster

[tinyrobot]

Well said...........

Slash absolutely nailed it. You can see the anger in his face when he talks about this.

I'm not sure how many of you were actually alive and old enough to appreciate this era..but this cover was absolutely unnecessary and accomplished nothing for the band.

Somewhere toward the end of the Illusions is where Axl really started to slip into the insane state he is in today....I think "Sympathy for the Devil" was when he jumped the shark.

I'm going to recap where I believe Axl started to lose his mind and made some questionable decisions:

-Putting "My World" on Use Your Illusion II without anyone else's permission from the band

-Two versions of "Don't Cry"....really very unneccessary

-A horn section and backup singers on the 1992-1993 leg of the tour

-The whole album "The Spaghetti Incident".....GNR had already done covers of "Live and Let Die" and "Knockin' on Heaven's Door".....releasing an entire album of covers was a downright bizarre move that nobody but hardcore fans appreciated

-The Sympathy for the Devil cover....as Slash stated, this was a disaster....this song did nothing in the US...the Stones song couldn't be improved...Axl basically did what he wanted with it without the permission of the rest of the band

-"Oh My God" in 1999.....nobody outside of a handful of people in this forum thought this was anything but garbage...a huge disappointment

-The MTV appearance in 2002....Axl's voice was horrible....he embarrassed the rest of the band

-Aborted 2003 tour...a missed opportunity by where there was still a window of acceptance for the music

-Waiting until November 2008 for Chinese Democracy release....this whole release was a disaster....no promotion, picking a crappy album cover when the other artwork was fantastic; not releasing singles which might have been hits (This I Love)....no videos....just a horrible mess

-Hiring his stupid housekeeper and her son as his manager....these bush league amateurs continue to run the band into the ground

This band is a joke today. They are basically a shadow of what they were...it is basically the Guns N Roses travelling revue. What was once one of the coolest rock bands of all time has been systematically destroyed and turned into a joke by Axl....I think it became real to Slash in 1994 that it was happening when Sympathy for the Devil came out and you can see his frustration as it was going up in flames.

wow

[RandallFlagg]

Izzy's under-rated on the rocking out side of things, he done some great groovers.

[Apollo]

Together.......they were magical in terms of rock music.

Without all the parts, they've had nice solo careers but none have achieved the success as when they were working as a team.

Is Izzy overrated or underrated? No. Without Axl/Slash/Duff, what has Izzy produced that has captured a huge music audience? Nothing. But put Izzy's song writing skills together with Axl's voice and Slash guitar work......then you have some hall of fame work going on. It doesn't matter how "great" the individual pieces are, what's more important is how the pieces fit and work together.

You could have the biggest Johnson in the world, be in the world record book and be worldwide famous for it. But if your gf has the smallest beaver in the world........are you guys going to be happy?

[Bards]

I'd be pissed regarding Sympathy if I were Slash too. He gets told he has to re-record his lead or Axl won't sing on it, obliges him, then finds out afterwards the only reason Axl wanted him to do that was so Paul could lay down some lame doubling over it.

Izzy leaving was a huge blow, but if Axl hadn't tried to force a friend of his who obviously couldn't have handled the gig into the band, things may have been able to be salvaged.

[tinyrobot]

I always related the whole GN'R break up to what romantic relationships are like.... and I have to wonder why in the hell did Axl want to bring someone from the "outside" into the group?

It happens to couples too. Someday, usually the man, wants a threesome or some cheating begins and that's the end of it all....

Well, what the hell happened that Axl needed to bring this third wheel Paul Tobias into the band? I'd be pissed off too... It's like discrediting the rest of the members. Why would they need this Tobias when they wrote AFD and the Illusions without that guy?

Axl makes no fuckin' sense at times...

[SoulMonster]

It seems to be as simple as Izzy being gone and Axl needed someone to write with. The band had completely stalled by then with Axl and Slash being at their throats, and Axl probably hoped they could rally around making music with Paul being the the catalyst. According to Axl the rest of the band (aka Slash and Duff) did nothing to make things proceed and Slash had been gone for quite a while focusing on his own project (Snakepit). I guess it was a desperate, ill-fated and badly executed attempt from Axl. It didn't go down well with particularly Slash who were already pretty pissed at Axl; breaking the illusion of a band of brothers by dominantly inserting an outsider really pissed him off. In normal circumstances it shouldn't have, because the band had at this sage gone through some changes (Slash had grudgingly accepted the entry of Dizzy), but at this point Slash was so opposed to Axl that it broke the camel's back.