Policing Thread

[magisme]

Pretty sure I read the officer left the scene after the shooting too. Not 100% certain, but pretty sure.

[Bumblefeet]

Some footage of Michael's friend being interviewed, he has given his explanation and retelling on numerous occasions, from what they are saying this all went down very fast, in under a minute (!).

The officer did leave the scene after the shooting and the body was even left unattained for hours there, which is also suspicious.

This all corroborates that the cop pulling up to Brown & Johnson happened fast and escalated fast and I'm now led to believe that the cop did overreact, maybe not on the initial shot, but most definitely once Brown ran away.

[shades]

wouldn't Chris Hayes have been more credible if he had led the story off with this picture of Brown and his key witness

Edited August 20, 2014 by shades

[Not An FSB Agent]

Some footage of Michael's friend being interviewed, he has given his explanation and retelling on numerous occasions, from what they are saying this all went down very fast, in under a minute (!).

The officer did leave the scene after the shooting and the body was even left unattained for hours there, which is also suspicious.

This all corroborates that the cop pulling up to Brown & Johnson happened fast and escalated fast and I'm now led to believe that the cop did overreact, maybe not on the initial shot, but most definitely once Brown ran away.

Is this the "witness" that first said that Brown tried to surrender, was shot, and then the cop shot him 4 more times, in the back, as he lay in the street? Why yes, yes I think that it is that liar.

[Apollo]

KK, can you link me to the footage of the actual incident that proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that Michael Brown didn't try to grab the gun, didn't shove the police car door back on the officer, didn't get in to a scrap with him through the window, didn't continue to walk brazenly down the middle of the road shouting intimidations, didn't turn around and charge the officer, because I can't seem to find it online.

Subsequently, I also can't find the footage of the actual incident that shows Michael Brown merely running away because he was scared (for being told to get on the sidewalk?).

Again, I'm not condoning nor suggesting he deserved to be shot to death, but you just seem so cocksure about the facts of what went down in the middle of that road.

I've seen his friend's initial interview where he basically said they were two local angels minding their own business, doing nothing wrong and not hurting anybody (physically or psychologically) just walking through the middle of traffic enjoying the sunny afternoon and a cop rolled up and emptied six bullets into his friend's back.

I've also seen his interview where he's standing next to his lawyer sounding like he is reading from a teleprompter with a revised script of events (after the video was released showing what they had been up to not ten minutes earlier).

Help me out man, can you hook me up with the proof of what went down one way or the other?

Thanks

[\thread]

Sorry, I'm usually in the same boat as Zint and Dazey on most issues, but I've got to back up KK on this one. It's not just Michael Brown's friend, Dorian Johnson, who's account of police brutality that leads to Brown's death, but several others.

If the police officer had shot Brown during the course of the struggle then Brown's death would have caused as much attention as it has. By many accounts, Brown and his friend were running away from the officer. Eye witness accounts from individuals not involved have stated that the police officer shot at Brown and Johnson as they ran. Unless everyone but the cop is lying, then we're talking about murder. If the several eye witness accounts are accurate, then the police officer's safety is no longer at issue. Even if one wants to accept the police officer's account of a physical altercation, it has little bearing on whether the use of deadly force was justified with a fleeing suspect.

Also let's examine how the police have responded since the death. They first made a statement that the involved officer was responding to the burglary report. That statement was later rescinded, with the police acknowledging that the burglary was not a motive for why the officer stopped Brown and Johnson. Also notice how it took six days for the police to name the officer involve. And when the name was finally revealed, they paired with the robbery video that had nothing to do with why the involved police officer stopped Brown and Johnson. We've also seen the police's complete over-reaction to demonstrators that has escalated the situation in Ferguson to the fever pitch it exists today.

Look, I'm sure Brown was no angel and probably threw a lot of attitude towards the cop's direction when the cop made the initial stop. But based on what we know so far (and CNN does a pretty count job covering this here), it's highly probable that we're talking about a incident of police brutality that resulted in a young man's death. I'm sure more will come out, but how it looks right now, I definitely think KK's opinion better aligns itself with what happened.

"if" "probable" "highly probable"

I would suggest that KK's opinion a few pages back of "until proven guilty" is a tad askew considering he seemingly can not provide definites as to how the series of events in the middle of that road went down. That is my initial point.

Well, there is no conclusive video footage of the event. That you are correct.

But since we're just a bunch of assholes writing on an internet forum and (hopefully) not part of the jury, let's not be disingenuous and act like the accounts of both sides hold up equally as well to scrutiny.

If we are to believe the police's version, we'd have to discount the testimony of several eye witnesses. We'd also have to accept the possibility that someone would turn and charge a police officer who has their gun drawn. Is is possible that everyone but the cops is lying and that Brown was a maniac who thought he could dodge bullets? I guess. Is it likely? To me, not much.

let's not be disingenuous and act like the accounts of both sides hold up equally as well to scrutiny.

Exactly my point, yet KK has the cop in prison already.

All accounts have to be taken in to consideration.

I was initially fed the report that Michael was a scholarly graduate about to continue his higher education, was a good boy who never got in to trouble and was a shining pillar of the community, the only photo given to the press was Michael in his graduation gown, days later I watched a video of him involved in a strong arm robbery using physical intimidation to commit a crime, and then come the photos of him throwing gang signs and giving the finger...and yet I'm not supposed to consider that just maybe, minutes later, he leaned in the cop car window and cracked the cop upside the head? (there is a report that the cops face was swollen).

So, a cop pulls up to two guys walking down the middle of the road, gets attitude from them, ends up in a physical exchange with one and gets punched in the face, a report comes over the police radio of a store robbery blocks away, Michael's holding a handful of cigars and starts to run, the cop gets out of the car and tells him to stop, having only the initial info on the robbery (ie: has to wonder..does this kid have a weapon on him or not)...thinking about that as the kid charges at him, he makes a snap decision in the chaos of the split seconds unfolding in front of him. I am not to think that is a plausible scenario? I'm not passing judgement on that scenario, but I can not wholly dismiss it as not being a possible, plausible account of events

And to be clear, I am not dismissing eyewitness accounts of two guys walking down the middle of the road, a cop pulls up and starts wailing on the kid for that reason only, the kids start running so the cop steps out of his car and puts six slugs in to him...for walking in the road. It is possible, but I can't post in this thread that the cop should be in jail based solely on that account of events.

Think what you want mate, but one of those scenarios sounds slightly less dodgy than the other.

Look, I know there's bad cops (of which there is apparently not a blemish on this guy's record) but I also know there a shitload of people in this world who would stretch the truth to throw a "fucking pig" under the bus. I've seen it all before. Innocent people do go to jail based on eyewitness accounts, there's a long legal history of it.

I'm not on either side of this case atm because quite frankly I'm finding it difficult to find finite plausibility as of yet from either side.

Perhaps a kid running at an armed cop didn't happen (but it has happened), perhaps "the cops photoshopped that video to make that guy look like Michael" didn't happen as some have claimed on CNN and elsewhere, but like you said, we're just tossing thoughts around right? However, some of us have the cop tossed in jail already, some of us are just saying "hang on a minute"... where does the right and wrong in that land?

I agree with you.

If the facts are such that the cop shot him unjustly, then I hope he is punished.

I was just addressing the point that there is a huge uproar right now about how evil cops are and how this was solely a hate-crime by the evil police. Somebody else posted in here that an almost exact crime happened recently but it was a white guy that got shot.......but nobody cares or is talking about it.

My main point was that there is an easy way to avoid getting shot by the cops. Don't commit a crime, don't punch the cop, don't reach for the cops gun, don't yell and scream at the cop, and don't run from the cops.............and you decrease your chance of getting shot by the cops by 99.999999% I will never get shot by the police, because I don't rob people. And if I was ever pulled over and even wrongly pulled over by the police, I would be respectful, and obey their commands.

And that I think it's unfair the way people are portraying the entire population of police men just because of a few bad apples in the punch. The majority of police men out there are doing a thankless job, risking their lives every day, just so they can try and make OUR cities a better and safer place to live.

[downzy]

[Apollo]

wouldn't Chris Hayes have been more credible if he had led the story off with this picture of Brown and his key witness

That picture explains what cops go through.

Guys want to be thugs and gangsters and live that life. They want to be Tony Montana.

So when a cop rides up on them, they continue playing the part. They don't do what the cop says - instead they start throwing punches at the cop, try and take his gun, etc.

So then when they get caught or unfortunately shot...............now it's a different story. Oh, he was a good kid and the cop was racist and over-reacted.

NOT excusing the cop in any way.

I deal with it on a much much much smaller scale coaching youth sports. Seems like there is always 1-2 kids on the team that wanna be the gangsta or smart-ass or tough-guy. They back talk, bully other kids, disrespect the coaches/umpires/etc. But the second you punish them their attitude completely changes. "Oh, the coach is picking on me"

Then the parent calls you "Why are you picking on my child. I'm going to call the newspapers and radio station and get an attorney, blah, blah, blah."

And you respond "Well, I'm not picking on your child. I kicked them out of practice because he told me to go f*ck myself when I told him to run a lap, then he punched another kid in the face and called him a f*ggot, then he destroyed a bunch of our gear when he left the field. That's why I sent him home." And even though the kid got kicked off his basketball team, kicked out of the local Rec Center for fighting, recently got suspended from school for yelling at a teacher...........the parents and the friend's buddies still think that everybody in unjustly picking on him.

So when I see that picture, then hear that the guy robbed a store, punched the cop, tried to grab the cops gun...........you play with fire, you're gonna get burned. If the cop broke the law then he should be punished, no doubt. And being a thug doesn't get cops the right to shoot you - no doubt. Not excusing the cop in the least bit. But if you play with fire, then you have to suffer the consequences. And for this young man, unfortunately, he isn't going to get another chance.

No amount of money in the world would make me be a cop and have to deal with people who have no respect for you, that want to physically injure you, that want to punch you and knock you out - all because you are trying to make the area a safer place.

[Apollo]

Downzy, how are the police in Canada?

The only bad experience I ever had with police was in Canada. My friend and I were traveling through and spent the night in some town. We went to a bar and had some drinks and ended up winning two tickets to Hawaii in a contest the bar was having. Being from out of town (and the country) AND winning the Hawaii vacation, of course some of the local girls glammed onto us. Which of course made a group of the local guys very angry. Bar closed and while we were talking to the girls outside this group of guys started a fight with us. We tried to walk away but they followed us until eventually a real fight broke out. Luckily, my friend was a complete bad-ass and even though it was 4-on-2, we handled ourselves quite nicely. Anyway, the cops came and broke it all up.

They sent the local boys home and kept us there and in their car for about thirty minutes, basically blaming us for everything.

But we were respectful, didn't argue or fight with them, just kept calmly explaining what happened. They even accused us of just coming to Canada to pick their mushrooms and taking them back to the US to sell.

But we stayed calm and respectful and they actually ended up driving us to our hotel room. I suspect the outcome would have been us going to jail if we'd resisted and been punks about it.

Our the cops more respected in Canada than they are here?

[downzy]

Downzy, how are the police in Canada?

The only bad experience I ever had with police was in Canada. My friend and I were traveling through and spent the night in some town. We went to a bar and had some drinks and ended up winning two tickets to Hawaii in a contest the bar was having. Being from out of town (and the country) AND winning the Hawaii vacation, of course some of the local girls glammed onto us. Which of course made a group of the local guys very angry. Bar closed and while we were talking to the girls outside this group of guys started a fight with us. We tried to walk away but they followed us until eventually a real fight broke out. Luckily, my friend was a complete bad-ass and even though it was 4-on-2, we handled ourselves quite nicely. Anyway, the cops came and broke it all up.

They sent the local boys home and kept us there and in their car for about thirty minutes, basically blaming us for everything.

But we were respectful, didn't argue or fight with them, just kept calmly explaining what happened. They even accused us of just coming to Canada to pick their mushrooms and taking them back to the US to sell.

But we stayed calm and respectful and they actually ended up driving us to our hotel room. I suspect the outcome would have been us going to jail if we'd resisted and been punks about it.

Our the cops more respected in Canada than they are here?

I don't think there's any difference really. There are a ton of asshole cops in Canada, just as there are many egomaniacs as cops in the U.S. I would dispute your point that cops do a thankless job. I'm not sure there is another profession out there (other than maybe celebrity singer or star quarterback) who gets more appreciation than cops, firefighters, or troops. I'm not saying that it's not rightfully placed, but at least here in Canada, cops are not hurting for attention or appreciation. When an electrician gets zapped to death while on the job the entire profession doesn't shut down and send members from all over the continent. They also make a pretty good buck, with many Toronto cops making over $100k a year. Then you consider their pensions, their early retirements, and the amount of vagina they get and I think it more than makes up for the dangerous aspects.

Moreover, being a cop isn't one of the most dangerous professions. In fact, it's way down on the list (it's not even in the top ten in Canada, see here). Sure, they have to deal with punks and thugs with attitude problems, but I'm sure the antagonizing goes both ways.

I've read a few posts here lamenting how white guys getting wrongfully killed by police is never as publicized as it is when black guys are gunned down, but let's not be ridiculous. Sure, it does happen. White people do suffer from police brutality, excessive force, and police error. But those incidents are not proportional to demographics and are more likely the result of simple accident than racial prejudices. And I'm not saying that all cops are racists, and that all cops involved in the death of black people are racists. But when you have the Ferguson police chief telling his officers, "let's have a black day," or "let's colour up the jail cells today," it does have an effect. Black people are disproportionally targeted by police. That isn't something you can argue over, it's basic fact. And unfortunately, continual targeting of minority communities by the police isn't something most news networks will pick up. People don't care. Unless someone dies. Is the black community using Brown's death for political purposes? Absolutely. But it's the only time people will pay attention, so I say, more power to them.

[Apollo]

Isn't being president of the US one of - if not the - most dangerous jobs?

10% of them have been killed while working and almost 33% of them have had serious assignation attempts on their lives.

[Coma16]

Downzy, how are the police in Canada?

Not much better.

[AxlisOld]

Cooperate first, sue later. If the cop really treats you unjustly, they can pay for it later.

Is fighting a guy wih a gun ever a good idea?

[downzy]

Downzy, how are the police in Canada?

Not much better.

Yeah, there's a good example of Canadian police making a clusterfuck of an already bad situation. Thankfully the police officer responsible for Sammy's death is facing charges of second degree murder and attempt to murder (which seems like a contradiction).

Edited August 20, 2014 by downzy

[bran]

wouldn't Chris Hayes have been more credible if he had led the story off with this picture of Brown and his key witness

thats not michael brown. that is is jodah cain and micus ward. these two were charged with murder for beating their grandmother to death with a sledgehammer. this picture has been posted on numerous fake news sites or news sites with 0 credibility as a way smear michael brown.

Edited August 20, 2014 by bran

[magisme]

[downzy]

wouldn't Chris Hayes have been more credible if he had led the story off with this picture of Brown and his key witness

thats not michael brown. that is is jodah cain and micus ward. these two were charged with murder for beating their grandmother to death with a sledgehammer. this picture has been posted on numerous fake news sites or news sites with 0 credibility as a way smear michael brown.

Snap!

Forgive him, his knowledge of, and hence ability to use, "the google" is not great.

Edited August 20, 2014 by downzy

[Bumblefeet]

Is this the "witness" that first said that Brown tried to surrender, was shot, and then the cop shot him 4 more times, in the back, as he lay in the street? Why yes, yes I think that it is that liar.

Why would she lie? I'm sorry but both her and Brown's friend to me do not sound like people who can pull off a made up story and repeat it that many times for various press without slipping up.

As for the picture with Brown & Johnson doing a gangsta pose, I'm sorry, but that doesn't prove anything; acting that way with a friend inside your home, messing around taking pictures of them "posing" is about as much incriminating as those other pictures they showed of him graduating etc.

[AxlisOld]

The best thing you can do to be updated on this case is avoid all media coverage of it. Because all they're trying to do is get another round of this:

Edited August 20, 2014 by AxlisOld

[dalsh327]

wouldn't Chris Hayes have been more credible if he had led the story off with this picture of Brown and his key witness

Not him.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/kansas-city-review-posting-fake-michael-brown-pic-facebook-report-article-1.1909021

[Not An FSB Agent]

Is this the "witness" that first said that Brown tried to surrender, was shot, and then the cop shot him 4 more times, in the back, as he lay in the street? Why yes, yes I think that it is that liar.

Why would she lie? I'm sorry but both her and Brown's friend to me do not sound like people who can pull off a made up story and repeat it that many times for various press without slipping up.

As for the picture with Brown & Johnson doing a gangsta pose, I'm sorry, but that doesn't prove anything; acting that way with a friend inside your home, messing around taking pictures of them "posing" is about as much incriminating as those other pictures they showed of him graduating etc.

Sorry, I thought that you referring to Dorian Johnson- his credibility is shit as it has been shown that he is a liar, and if she is the one that surfaced a few days ago, her testimony is suspect as she didn't come forward until after a week of rioting.

Someone on here said that photo was a fake made to discredit brown and Johnson??? So,now I consider it suspect until proven otherwise.

[Jackie Moon]

i'm sure this kid was just peacefully making his way home, paying taxes and obeying laws....

the sad thing is - of course there are racist, power tripping cops out there. OF COURSE.

pick your battles, captain civil rights.... this aint one of em.

i would be way more sympathetic if this kid had just had the shit kicked out of him... anyone who knows cops knows - you don't deploy a weapon unless its serious. if you're a bigot asshole, you would just kick this kids ass. If you shoot the FUCK out of someone, you're bound to get some attention.

way to react, with the looting, persons

Edited August 21, 2014 by Jackie Moon

[Michael Maria]

It is all a result of the system that is in place. You can be for it or against it.

[Lucky Luciano]

It is all a result of the system that is in place. You can be for it or against it.

Okie dokie.

[Dazey]

Miser? Warchild?

[Ace Nova]

The best thing you can do to be updated on this case is avoid all media coverage of it. Because all they're trying to do is get another round of this:

Well, I guess some of the brainwashing must of worked.......apparently......he got off.........................