What lineup do you want to see reunite the most?

[Len Cnut]

I might be about to draw a ridiculous parrallel here, it's at best vague but bear with me. Anyone else notice how GnR became a bit shite after Adler left? i mean without getting into the merits or lack thereof of the Illusion albums, they were alright...but they weren't Appetite or Lies. So Adler was a piss artist and a bit of a fuck up...so was Keith Moon...and The Who were pretty much naff once he left I'm sure you'll all agree. I won't even listen to a Moonless Who, i think it's sacreligious. I mean he weren't Mr fuckin' technical drummer...but neither was Moonie. A great many people think that, musically speaking, in terms of correct form etc The Who became a better band with Kenny whatshisface from The Faces but they lost that reckless fuckin' mentalist aspect that made them so unique.

Now I'm not by any stretch of the imagination comparing Stevie Adler with Lord Keith Moon, who i believe to be some sort of incarnation of God but there is a vague parrallel there, the mentalist pisshead drummer without whom their sound sort of changed for the worse and weren't ever quite the same again.

Thing about a player is that they ain't just about what they themselves do as a standalone thing, it's about what they bring out in the other players too, you don't play the same with everybody that you play with, different styles brings different things out of each individual performer and contributes a lot more to the greater tapestry than just what they are doing in and of themselves.

I find it slightly off-putting that it's like 'we can't have Stevie cuz he's a waster' is like the cardinal objection to him, it's something of an indicator of the kind of footing that this reunion will be on, should it ever occur, i.e. a dull boring sterile one. 'But he won't be able to keep it up long term!', if he does then yay, better band and if he doesn't even better, play a handful of blistering fucking gigs for posterity and then collapse again, I could live with that if the other option is Matt Sorum fannying on about fuckin' animal rights and having swingless drum sound that sounds like a lisence plate press.

Yeah you're right in that there are drummers that are great on their own, but horrid in a band context. Just like guitar players, etc.

Izzy said everything was wrong after Steven left. Sounded wrong. And he was right. It was "wrong" in the sense that it wasn't steven on the kit, and he did have perfect chemistry with the rest of the band members from the classic line up. Like Duff said, it could have been only the 5 of them. That obviously includes Adler.

One thing I disagree is that people don't think he's able. It's not that. It's Axl. He said playing even one song with Steven will mean years of litigation.

Indeed. UYIs era (90s) was not GN'R. It was FakeGN'R. Guns N' Roses isn't about real lyrics, it's about the 80s and big hair and havin' nothin' but a good time'.

UYI GN'R sucked, it wasn't real.

Shut the fuck up gayboy.

[wasted]

But I think the UYI line up worked in a more rock way. It didn't need the swing of AFD. Same with CD it doesn't have to be AFD or UYI to work. UYI was like Sex Pistols meets Queen in a brutal car crash. CD takes the melting pot idea from AFD but works with 90s palette. AFD was forged on Sunset Strip in the Vietnam of rock n roll. UYI is really middle America. It's designed to rock hockey stadiums. CD is more of a global album. The 90s influences are from various countries. i can't imagine Steven on Shackler's or Matt drumming on TWAT. Their styles wouldn't work. I see GNR as Axl and whoever can help make the record. It's kind of fucked up that it's that important but it's also cool. Someone caring that much. Instead of just 5 guys in a garage making the same thing over and over as long as the chicks and beer keeping flowing.

[DieselDaisy]

The problem with Illusion is not that it had a lyrical shift and departed from hair rock (although it did not really, case in point Back off Bitch). The problem is that it is stuffed full of filler and that Axl swamped the thing in overdubs. GN'R were also beginning to believe their own hype by ramping up the pomposity.

[Len Cnut]

The problem with Illusion is not that it had a lyrical shift and departed from hair rock (although it did not really, case in point Back off Bitch). The problem is that it is stuffed full of filler and that Axl swamped the thing in overdubs. GN'R were also beginning to believe their own hype by ramping up the pomposity.

I think it suffers more from the expectations and projections of Guns fans as much as anything. They compare it to these lofty albums when, lets face it, rationalising and charitable assessments aside, it ain't worth a wank next to your Exiles and your White Albums.

[Nosaj Thing]

I will never going to agree with the notion of the UYIs having "issues." The albums are perfect just as they were released. At least for me, it was a perfect "evolution" from the AFD sound.

[DieselDaisy]

I will never going to agree with the notion of the UYIs having "issues." The albums are perfect just as they were released. At least for me, it was a perfect "evolution" from the AFD sound.

(Cough), ''My World''; ''Get in the Ring''; ''Shotgun Blues''; ''My World''; two versions of the same bloody song (''Don't Cry''); ''Knockin' On Heaven's Dawawa''; ''My World''.

[Nosaj Thing]

I will never going to agree with the notion of the UYIs having "issues." The albums are perfect just as they were released. At least for me, it was a perfect "evolution" from the AFD sound.

(Cough), ''My World''; ''Get in the Ring''; ''Shotgun Blues''; ''My World''; two versions of the same bloody song (''Don't Cry''); ''Knockin' On Heaven's Dawawa''; ''My World''.

Not going to argue the fact that those songs are not good, but they were meant to be taken seriously? Alright, KOHD studio is atrocious, but Don't Cry Alt. is not. I mean, out of the 30 songs released that's not so bad.

[ChineseIRS]

Gilby doesnt matter, Fortus doesnt matter , Tobias doesnt matter. Any other guitarist u could name in the world doesnt matter for rhythm guitarist in a reunion situation. If its not Izzy then it doesnt matter who it is. Axl and Slash together again will be selling most of the tickets to the general public, they could care less about the rhythm guitarist, especially if its not Izzy.

Although you are broadly correct, if that is the people you wish to attract only possess Greatest Hits, this is not the way a fan base of any given band usually views 'reunion' - if it is a reunion we are discussing here? Most reunion tours involve the return of a distinct line-up, not merely a return of certain 'more famous members' for the benefit of uber casual Joe Public.

But isnt that essentially what Reunion tours are? A Greatest hits, huge money making ordeal. Most of the time these bands arent even friends, dont like each other, etc. They do it for the money. Promoters dont give a shit if its a distinct line up, as long as it makes millions. And unfortunately Joe public doesnt give a shit as long as the face of the band is there, and in Guns' case its Axl and Slash. They will be selling the tickets for the most part. The cool thing for hardcores is that they seem to actually be friends/on talking terms before they are doing it which a lot of other reunited bands dont care to make happen. Only hardcores will care if Gilbys there instead of Fortus if its not Izzy. A reunion doesnt hinge on them. Thats the only point people are trying to make here. To the public, Axl, Slash, and Duff is all they really need for it to be a "reunion."

To a certain degree you are correct, about the paramountcy of Axl and Slash, however I do not believe names like Izzy Stradlin, Steven Adler, Matt Sorum - and to a lesser degree, Gilby and Dizzy - are as unknown and dismissive an attribute as made out here. If you imagine an audience like a circle with concentric rings inside. On the outside are casuals who own Greatest Hits and know the band from the videos for November Rain and Sweet Child. These are your ''Axl N' Slash'' people. Then there is an inner ring which includes what I call 'general rock fans' - I will explain this point later. And in the middle you have a small whole circle of hardcore fans, i.e. us basically, nutters who listen to bootlegs and have tedious soap opera conversations like this one. The split could be approximately 50/40/10% respectively. It is that middle category that concerns me, the general rock fans. These are fans who do not visit forums or collect bootlegs but they are usually semi-informed about line-ups and possess all the major releases. When I was growing up people (from this category) certainly were aware of Duff, Izzy and Steven. Some of them were moderately aware that Stradlin wrote a lot of the songs. Some of them might have even preferred those members. These people probably own Appetite, Lies and Illusion and probably checked out in 1996 when Slash left. These are a sizable demographic. They are concerned about legitimacy - seeing a major (bona fide) band at least once.

(Many of them have bands with which they are the hardcore fan, e.g. Metallica, Maiden, etc., so they are at least aware what it is like to follow a band passionately).

In regards to promoters, they look for a selling point. Axl and Slash would produce just that, ''Axl and Slash'', as the selling point but how much better would it be to have alongside ''Axl N' Slash'',

- A (full blooded) reunion

- the original (Appetite) lineup playing live for the first time since 1989.

- A reunion of the old band for the first time since 1991 or 1992 (if it has to be watered down with people like Matt and Gilby)

These are all certifiable selling points for reunion tours. You cannot sell a tour with these if you have people like Fortus hanging round. The reunion angle works best when it is an angle that is as pure as humanely possible - preferably 100% (we are all in agreement that Izzy would be first choice although we seem split over Adler v Matt). It is an easier sell. A less muddy solution. It is rational. Logical. A continuation, connecting us back to our past. Legit.

Additionally, you are also dealing with a band which seemed democratically organised musically in the 1980s. There is no way Appetite would sound the same if you removed one element. A lot of people are willing to criticise Adler here yet if you remove his drumming the whole album would be different. He provided the groove and swing. Duff's bass lines had a sort of punk-pop feel, and Izzy had Hanoi Rocks/Ron Wood style slashing rhythmic playing which perfectly offset Slash. You remove any of those so called 'less important members' and you are simply not going to recreate the Appetite style and feel. It is that simple. To a lesser extent this is true of the Illusion line-ups also. Those lesser parts of GN'R were in many ways as vital as Axl and Slash's. It is just that Axl and Slash had the publicity.

That is what a lot of general rock fans (and hardcore fans) would love, to hear Appetite as it should be. An Axl and Slash show would be shallow in comparison, a sort of quasi-reunion, a flawed compromise.

I essentially agree with most of what youre saying. The other guys definitely hold weight for a reunion, with Gilby being the lesser of them all. Me personally, id like it to be Axl, Slash, Duff, Izzy, Matt and Dizzy. Cause that seems the most realistic. If Izzy didnt want to do it then Gilby. But if it happened to be Fortus i wouldnt be upset by it. Outside of us hardcores, i dont think most of the general public cares as long as its Axl, Slash and Duff. Thats really the only point i was trying to make with the Gilby thing.

[wasted]

It was mainly Slash that didn't like the final version of UYI. Thought Axl added too many overdubs and talking. Slash said the demos were great. Definitely the rockers don't breathe as much as AFD.

I think it sounds alright though. Drums a bit clunky and generic in parts, but that kind of holds it all together. A bit flat, but it has a harder edge than AFD which made it more competitive with Metallica black album.

Between the two albums you get a AFD 2 and a new album of more solo songs. Nobody can complain.

People say filler but it's hard to leave anything off.

But just the singles they put out is enough for 1 really good cd?

[Snowmass]

Tough question- I'd love Traci, Chickenbuckethead, Tom, Bubblefoot, Fink, DJ with solo Fermanager at the helm. Would be epic.