Terrorist attack thread

[Lio]

19 hours ago, Graeme said:

I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to... I never said that it was impossible for a white European to know nothing about Muslims, but have you seen discussion in this thread about the difference between cultures in the Arab nations, Iran, Pakistan or Bangladesh? I haven't. I have, however, seen discussion of 'Muslims' as a single homogeneous foreign bloc who have come to settle in (almost to colonise) Europe and that there is a high likelihood of them being terrorists on an individual basis, therefore Europe should shut them all out.

There has been indiscriminate projection of values onto Muslims in this thread. JeanGenie said that he believes the majority of Muslims condone these attacks, which is a pretty extreme accusation, but there are no Muslims here to refute or address that statement... It's been good to have Len and Amir in this thread because they can at least talk about practising Muslims whom they know, who don't want to kill every non-believer they encounter.

I'm just saying it's worthwhile remembering that the people who claimed responsibility for the attack yesterday are the same organisation that the vast majority of Syrian refugees are fleeing for their lives.

I was in Glasgow airport when two radical Islamic terrorists drove a Jeep loaded with nail bombs into the front door. I was stuck in there for a whole day as the police imposed a lockdown, so I'm not speaking from the point of view of someone who has never experienced a terrorist attack. But that was one day out of my whole life, I rationalise that to myself and realise that the statistical probability of being in the wrong place at the wrong time again is so small as to be insignificant. It's definitely not a large enough probability to deter me from flying, nor to start treating every Muslim I meet as a potential terrorist, it would make more sense to be terrified of dying every time I get in a car.

Well, we're talking about 'our' Muslims of course, and then only the ones that are causing problems. I just felt offended because it seemed that whatever experience some of us had was dismissed because we didn't stipulate that not every single Muslim wants us all dead. We're talking about the terrorist attacks, an acute danger. I can't be specifying in every post that 'the west' has done so many wrong things and of course I don't think a Syrian baby, woman or man doesn't deserve to live in peace. I feel sometimes things have to be said and sometimes there's a need to be blunt about it. There is a problem, and it's always the same people causing it.

The huge difference to me between the threat of a terrorist attack and dying from lightning or in a car crash, is that in the first case, people are actually out to kill me. Other people, who I don't know, who I've never met or done anything wrong, are out to kill me in an atrocious, cowardly way. In my mind, that's a huge difference. We're talking about people who grew up here, safe and well, people who got an education (many of them couldn't be bothered to finish it, but that's another story), got a lot of chances, while not denying that they probably were confronted with racism, but they decided to turn on us and kill us and try to destroy our society. That to me is a million times more scary than getting in the car and maybe get hit, or coming out of bed and maybe breaking my neck.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. I'm not sure I could rationalise it like you can. It probably wouldn't have detered me from flying when I was younger either, but becoming a mum has changed all that. I'm trying not to let it influence me too much, but I won't be flying any time soon, and I won't be going to places where huge crowds are expected, rational or not.

 

[Bumblefeet]

21 minutes ago, Lio said:

The huge difference to me between the threat of a terrorist attack and dying from lightning or in a car crash, is that in the first case, people are actually out to kill me. Other people, who I don't know, who I've never met or done anything wrong, are out to kill me in an atrocious, cowardly way. In my mind, that's a huge difference. We're talking about people who grew up here, safe and well, people who got an education (many of them couldn't be bothered to finish it, but that's another story), got a lot of chances, while not denying that they probably were confronted with racism, but they decided to turn on us and kill us and try to destroy our society. That to me is a million times more scary than getting in the car and maybe get hit, or coming out of bed and maybe breaking my neck.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. I'm not sure I could rationalise it like you can. It probably wouldn't have detered me from flying when I was younger either, but becoming a mum has changed all that. I'm trying not to let it influence me too much, but I won't be flying any time soon, and I won't be going to places where huge crowds are expected, rational or not.

 

I read an article posted by De Standaard where they got foreign correspondents to comment on the Brussels' attack. The bottomline was, we now have our own "9/11, Paris Attacks" to live with on a day to day basis and the fear you are describing is a rational one. It is no longer a remote possibility that terrorists can strike in our country, they have. And this isn't the lone nut who goes and shoots up a school or shopping mall or whatever, this is a network of people. It is a real threat so you have no excuse to make for not wanting to take any risks. The easter holiday is about to take off, if I had plans to go on a holiday with my family this weekend, I'd be worried like shit; will they strike at the airport? During the flight? What about the hotel? If we want it or not it's become a part of our life.

Now how you choose to deal with it is entirely up to yourself. There is a film festival in Brussels next week and although I haven't gotten tickets yet, I'm still considering going because I have done so every year and I'd feel more uneasy having to miss out than going and enjoying myself. I also feel that these guys have been dealt a terribly bad hand and I'd like to support them by going. Like I say, we all deal with it in our own way but make no mistake, the threat is real and rational and I'm sure people will look over their backs more often from now on.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Bumblefeet

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, Bumblefeet said:

What collective guilt? Germany is a rich (christian) nation, they aren't helping out due to some 'collective guilt' (from what might I ask? The war?)

Yes, the war. I have had the pleasure of discussing German's role in Europe and the burden they carry especially in regards to the mass immigration, with quite a few Germans lately, and a few of them have on their own accord suggested they have a collective guilt for what their country has been doing in the past and now want to make up for it. Whether it is a conscious thing that they actually think of or simply a subconscious mentality ingrained in the German psyche since 1945, I don't know, but that is what I am told.

[Len Cnut]

2 hours ago, Lio said:

JeanGenie is from France. I'm the Belgian

It seems MB, JeanGenie and I have roughly the same experiences, so that's the Netherlands, France and Belgium.

I thought Genie came from Germany.

[Lio]

Just now, Len B'stard said:

I thought Genie came from Germany.

Well, let's say Genie's from continental Western Europe then.

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, Lio said:

Well, let's say Genie's from continental Western Europe then.

Tell me, is there some kinda response of the people?  I mean if its kinda concentrated and they know where its coming from, in Molenbeek, not that I'm at all advocating mob mentality...do they not just go in and fuck those people up?

[SoulMonster]

1 hour ago, PappyTron said:

The issue is that there are more people seeking aid than it is possible to assist. What happens is that the quality of life in all of the rich countries who try to help goes down and the problem still remains. It's like the EU. When it was formed we were all told that goods and services in our rich countries would come down to those of the poorer states. In reality, the prices stayed the same or went up and we received an influx of millions of people from eastern Europe. There are schools in the UK where the pupils speak 50-60 different languages, and other schools where none of the students speak English as their mother-tongue.

Going back to the topic at hand, you need to look at who is doing the acts of terrorism and why they come about. Like said before, it's culture clash and social alienation as the base, and then religious justification which really gets the fire going. Now, how to deal with that? I don't believe that it is the duty of a society to alter its culture in order to better accommodate those who wish to seek refuge there; it is down to the seeker of aid to fit in. If I moved to Norway tomorrow it would be down to me to learn the language and traditions and to try and fit in no matter how hard it may be. I should not expect everyone to talk English to me and to bow down to, or even be knowledgeable of, English culture.

Yes, we can't help them all. But neither should we help none. Well, that's just my opinion (which I share with most of my countrymen, and probably also most Europeans). It comes down to screening and systems for integration.

I agree with you that the host cultures shouldn't be changed to adapt to immigrants. Those that come must adapt to their new society, when required. Most immigrants agree with this, too.

[Len Cnut]

The adapting bit worries me a little.  There's members of my family that don't adapt, my Mum has lived here since 1979 and she don't speak English   I mean she understands it, she wouldn't have trouble in a shop or anything.  She's a very gentle voiced frightened looking soul, bless her, don't wear a burkha or anything but she has a head scarf on...n not one of them tightly wrapped black ones either.  But yeah, i suppose i can see how that'd happen, she mostly hangs around with family or whatever soooo...

[Lio]

Just now, Len B'stard said:

Tell me, is there some kinda response of the people?  I mean if its kinda concentrated and they know where its coming from, in Molenbeek, not that I'm at all advocating mob mentality...do they not just go in and fuck those people up?

Not really. It's not only Molenbeek, but Schaarbeek, Vorst, Anderlecht... You can't fuck up all of Brussels, I suppose.

And I think it would take quite a mob to go down there. In Molenbeek, hundreds of young muslims threw bottles and stones at the police after Abdeslam was arrested last Friday night. In Anderlecht, some muslims ran amok after one minute's silence was held on Wedsnesday. They attacked the press, I believe.

[Len Cnut]

Just now, Lio said:

Not really. It's not only Molenbeek, but Schaarbeek, Vorst, Anderlecht... You can't fuck up all of Brussels, I suppose.

And I think it would take quite a mob to go down there. In Molenbeek, hundreds of young muslims threw bottles and stones at the police after Abdeslam was arrested last Friday night. In Anderlecht, some muslims ran amok after one minute's silence was held on Wedsnesday. They attacked the press, I believe.

How do the police figure in the equation?  I mean do they handle em successfully?

[Lio]

1 minute ago, Len B'stard said:

How do the police figure in the equation?  I mean do they handle em successfully?

Not sure about Friday night. There was some indignation over the weekend because it hadn't been in the press at all. I think a lot is kept from us as to not polarise any further, but I don't think it does a lot of good. If it does come out, you're left wondering about what else you're being kept in the dark about.

I think one or two were arrested on Wednesday, but I suppose they're being let go immediately.

[Len Cnut]

Just now, Lio said:

Not sure about Friday night. There was some indignation over the weekend because it hadn't been in the press at all. I think a lot is kept from us as to not polarise any further, but I don't think it does a lot of good. If it does come out, you're left wondering about what else you're being kept in the dark about.

I think one or two were arrested on Wednesday, but I suppose they're being let go immediately.

Can i ask you something else?  MB was talking about an on-going issue with North African youths and criminality and such, reaching back to like the prior generation etc.  What has been the nature of those issues, I mean just like street violence or just generally being anti social fuckers or the aggressive propagation of Islam or...? 

[Lio]

1 minute ago, Len B'stard said:

Can i ask you something else?  MB was talking about an on-going issue with North African youths and criminality and such, reaching back to like the prior generation etc.  What has been the nature of those issues, I mean just like street violence or just generally being anti social fuckers or the aggressive propagation of Islam or...? 

From what I know, it's usually drug dealing, burglary, carjackings, robberies and stuff. I don't really think it had a lot to do with propagating Islam as such. I mean, there were lots of problems with North Africans not respecting girls or women, yelling abusive language, but I always saw that more as the result of cultural differences. I don't think they were so religious to start with. Like this Ibrahim guy was a gangster, robbing and shooting at police with a kalashnikov. I don't think Allah was on his mind that much back in 2010, when he did all that stuff.

[Bumblefeet]

12 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Yes, the war. I have had the pleasure of discussing German's role in Europe and the burden they carry especially in regards to the mass immigration, with quite a few Germans lately, and a few of them have on their own accord suggested they have a collective guilt for what their country has been doing in the past and now want to make up for it. Whether it is a conscious thing that they actually think of or simply a subconscious mentality ingrained in the German psyche since 1945, I don't know, but that is what I am told.

It might factor in, I'm not disputing that, but the only thing Germany should feel guilty about right now is declaring "we will manage it" in regards to the refugee crisis when they clearly have not.  

[Len Cnut]

I see.  Who lived in the areas where they live before they did?  I mean were the previously affluent areas or poor areas or...?

[Bumblefeet]

3 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

I see.  Who lived in the areas where they live before they did?  I mean were the previously affluent areas or poor areas or...?

This should give you a good idea:

http://theconversation.com/what-is-it-about-molenbeek-the-bit-of-belgium-that-was-a-base-for-paris-terror-attacks-51007

[SoulMonster]

A good article on Belgium's struggle with extremism: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/21/europe/belgium-terror-fight-molenbeek/

"We're talking about third- and fourth-generation [immigrants]; these youngsters are born in Belgium, even their fathers and mothers are born in Belgium, and still they are open for these kind of messages. This is not normal -- in the U.S., the second generation was the President; here, the fourth generation is an IS fighter -- so that is really something we have to work on."

 

Edited March 24, 2016 by SoulMonster

[Len Cnut]

It'd be interesting to hear a North Africans perspective.  A sociological one that is.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Len B'stard

[Lio]

7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

A good article on Belgium's struggle with extremism: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/21/europe/belgium-terror-fight-molenbeek/

"We're talking about third- and fourth-generation [immigrants]; these youngsters are born in Belgium, even their fathers and mothers are born in Belgium, and still they are open for these kind of messages. This is not normal -- in the U.S., the second generation was the President; here, the fourth generation is an IS fighter -- so that is really something we have to work on."

 

Another Ali crying about the big, bad, racist Belgians. Sure, there are stories like that. But in equally as many cases, they have fucked things up themselves. They just love to play the victim. Don't get the job? Racist! Someone makes a remark about you parking your car on the pavement? Racist!

I know endless stories of people giving immigrants a job, where they refuse to turn up, refuse to do as their boss tells them et cetera. If they get fired, it's always racism.

I know and don't deny there's racism, but very often it stems from people having had bad experiences with people of a certain background. That's what makes them hesitant to employ anyone named Mohammed. Very sad for all the good Mohammed's out there, but it doesn't come from nothing.

The problem lots of people here have, is that North Africans aren't interested in integrating, in belonging here. They're so many here, hardly a minority. (In Antwerp, more than half of the kidfs in school are Muslim.) They get by fine just mingling with their own. They're not interested in our music festivals, not interested in our cultural events. You hardly ever see a North African at public events. They can't be bothered. They came here in huge groups and they cling together. If one North African has an altercation or discussion with a white person, other North Africans will always take the North African's side, never mind who's in the right or who's in the wrong. In the end, they always support their own. That's what you see in Molenbeek and the other Brussels suburbs. That's why Abdeslam can hide for four months. Because in the end, they don't care about Belgium, they don't care about our law, they care about their own in the first place.

Note: when I say all, I don't mean literally all. But the vast majority anyway.

[SoulMonster]

More on "why Belgium?": http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/world/europe/its-capital-frozen-belgium-surveys-past-failures-and-squabbles.html?_r=0

[MB.]

Len, I strongly want to make a difference between the boys and girls as well. Cause the girls are doing so much better, going to college and all. And also it's obviously not all boys, but a percentage, but that % is so loud, dangerous and fucking things up, it's hard for people not to generalize. 

Ofcourse they come from area's where they all live together like Molenbeek and their (grand)parents come from the poor area's in Nother Africa. Also people from other parts in Morocco look down on those people, weird as it sounds. It are mostly Berbers we talk about, not arabs, they have a thing going on. But if go to a village in my country where only a few nothern africans live there and there is a difference right away. Way more integrated.  

My own city experience is, that they are very interested in religion. But most are not following islam, however they talk about it a lot. They make up their sins during the ramadan, that's what they say ;). Nothern african boys have a temper as well. They love to play the victim card. And it's just not right, if you see that muslims from Surinam, Indonesia, Iran are doing fine. You never see them screaming about being a victim. They just go to school, get a job and live their lives. Like I said imo they mostly screw up themselves. You don't even want to know, how many discussions I had with boys like that back in the day. So I had a cleaning job in between one school to another, they laughed at me. They would never clean an office, that's no job, too good for that. Oh Len, I did that job with an elder softspoken muslim couple from Pakistan btw, they had no problem with it. They were just happy they had a job and lived in our country. They always brought me food as well, haha great people. Anyway to me it's not hard to understand, how some boys fall for IS, it's a temper, macho thing as well. But if you see they don't even respect IS and get shot by them, you know what we are dealing with.

Ofcourse lots of nothern africans in Molenbeek are upset now and finally see the problem. Guess something really bad has to happen first before people open their eyes. 

Edited March 24, 2016 by MB.

[Len Cnut]

41 minutes ago, Lio said:

Another Ali crying about the big, bad, racist Belgians. Sure, there are stories like that. But in equally as many cases, they have fucked things up themselves. They just love to play the victim. Don't get the job? Racist! Someone makes a remark about you parking your car on the pavement? Racist!

I know endless stories of people giving immigrants a job, where they refuse to turn up, refuse to do as their boss tells them et cetera. If they get fired, it's always racism.

I know and don't deny there's racism, but very often it stems from people having had bad experiences with people of a certain background. That's what makes them hesitant to employ anyone named Mohammed. Very sad for all the good Mohammed's out there, but it doesn't come from nothing.

The problem lots of people here have, is that North Africans aren't interested in integrating, in belonging here. They're so many here, hardly a minority. (In Antwerp, more than half of the kidfs in school are Muslim.) They get by fine just mingling with their own. They're not interested in our music festivals, not interested in our cultural events. You hardly ever see a North African at public events. They can't be bothered. They came here in huge groups and they cling together. If one North African has an altercation or discussion with a white person, other North Africans will always take the North African's side, never mind who's in the right or who's in the wrong. In the end, they always support their own. That's what you see in Molenbeek and the other Brussels suburbs. That's why Abdeslam can hide for four months. Because in the end, they don't care about Belgium, they don't care about our law, they care about their own in the first place.

Note: when I say all, I don't mean literally all. But the vast majority anyway.

The bit that cracks me up is he goes 'they find they don't belong here, OK, we'll go to ISIS and belong there'...uh, excuse me?!?   Thats a bit of a fuckin' leap, isn't it?  Like genocide is the first obvious response to feeling unwanted, i never fuckin' felt wanted in school here, all it made me do was listen to Nirvana

[MB.]

If it makes you feel any better, I actually never was wanted at school.

It's not a privelege only immigrants have, you know?

Edited March 24, 2016 by MB.

[SoulMonster]

Boys are stupid. Give them a uniform, a sense of belonging, guns, a mission, and they will literally kill themselves for the cause.

[Len Cnut]

To be fair i was a nasty little cunt too   But lets ignore that bit!

Edited March 24, 2016 by Len B'stard