Terrorist attack thread

[Graeme]

4 hours ago, Lio said:

Really? Really? Jesus, sorry for being white. I know I'm only white and I can't possibly know anything about what's happening in my own country and how a part of the muslim population here is. Thank you for telling me how I ignorant I am and how we're all projecting values onto a group of cultures. Thing is, your post is a prime example of where it's gone wrong.

I had quite a few family members and friends in Brussels yesterday and their chances of being in a terrorist attack were a bit bigger than minute, thank you very much. Just like our fellow poster Stoner's, actually. (Not everyone lives on an island.) Thankfully, they were all unharmed. If they'd been less lucky, they might have lost a limb or their lives, like many others did, due to nail bombs specifically designed to maim and kill as many innocent men, women and children, of any race and religion, as possible. We have been living here with soldiers on our doorsteps, for months now. There have been many searches, many weapons found, nail bombs, kalashnikovs and the likes. Thankfully, there haven't been attacks on a day-to-day basis, but yesterday proved that the threat is very real. We have to live with it every day. Even if I'm only white and understand nothing.

Oh, and I really appreciate Amir's and Len's posts just as I appreciate many other valuable posters here. They all help me see things in a broader perspective, maybe see it from another side. It's funny how you say not all muslims are the same (of course they aren't), but somehow promote Len and Amir to be the muslim authorities, while just dismissing other people's experiences in their own lives.

I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean to... I never said that it was impossible for a white European to know nothing about Muslims, but have you seen discussion in this thread about the difference between cultures in the Arab nations, Iran, Pakistan or Bangladesh? I haven't. I have, however, seen discussion of 'Muslims' as a single homogeneous foreign bloc who have come to settle in (almost to colonise) Europe and that there is a high likelihood of them being terrorists on an individual basis, therefore Europe should shut them all out.

There has been indiscriminate projection of values onto Muslims in this thread. JeanGenie said that he believes the majority of Muslims condone these attacks, which is a pretty extreme accusation, but there are no Muslims here to refute or address that statement... It's been good to have Len and Amir in this thread because they can at least talk about practising Muslims whom they know, who don't want to kill every non-believer they encounter.

I'm just saying it's worthwhile remembering that the people who claimed responsibility for the attack yesterday are the same organisation that the vast majority of Syrian refugees are fleeing for their lives.

I was in Glasgow airport when two radical Islamic terrorists drove a Jeep loaded with nail bombs into the front door. I was stuck in there for a whole day as the police imposed a lockdown, so I'm not speaking from the point of view of someone who has never experienced a terrorist attack. But that was one day out of my whole life, I rationalise that to myself and realise that the statistical probability of being in the wrong place at the wrong time again is so small as to be insignificant. It's definitely not a large enough probability to deter me from flying, nor to start treating every Muslim I meet as a potential terrorist, it would make more sense to be terrified of dying every time I get in a car.

[classicrawker]

I am not trying to diminish in any way the recent tragedies in France and Belgium but just trying to offer some perspective in the face of the understandable reaction to these incidents.

Here is a older article which shows Americans chances of being killed by terrorists

You are 4x more likely of being hit by lightning than killed due to an act of terrorism

http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-terrorism-statistics-every-american-needs-to-hear/5382818

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2015/11/23/youre-more-likely-to-be-fatally-crushed-by-furniture-than-killed-by-a-terrorist/

[Dan H.]

5 hours ago, Lio said:

Really? Really? Jesus, sorry for being white. I know I'm only white and I can't possibly know anything about what's happening in my own country and how a part of the muslim population here is. Thank you for telling me how I ignorant I am and how we're all projecting values onto a group of cultures. Thing is, your post is a prime example of where it's gone wrong.

I had quite a few family members and friends in Brussels yesterday and their chances of being in a terrorist attack were a bit bigger than minute, thank you very much. Just like our fellow poster Stoner's, actually. (Not everyone lives on an island.) Thankfully, they were all unharmed. If they'd been less lucky, they might have lost a limb or their lives, like many others did, due to nail bombs specifically designed to maim and kill as many innocent men, women and children, of any race and religion, as possible. We have been living here with soldiers on our doorsteps, for months now. There have been many searches, many weapons found, nail bombs, kalashnikovs and the likes. Thankfully, there haven't been attacks on a day-to-day basis, but yesterday proved that the threat is very real. We have to live with it every day. Even if I'm only white and understand nothing.

Oh, and I really appreciate Amir's and Len's posts just as I appreciate many other valuable posters here. They all help me see things in a broader perspective, maybe see it from another side. It's funny how you say not all muslims are the same (of course they aren't), but somehow promote Len and Amir to be the muslim authorities, while just dismissing other people's experiences in their own lives.

I didn't read anything Graeme said as being insulting to you personally man. Obviously you have had experiences on the front line of this conflict, and while you provide valuable insight onto the topical comings and goings of this terrible attack, and its aftermath, most of us (including Graeme, self admittedly, in his own post) are not privy to the cultural implications and motivations of Islam. For the most part it seems like the Muslim community is pretty quiet, private, and close knit, and having Amir and Len provide insight that most of us folks with Western, white, and middle to upper class experiences may not have been exposed to.

 

Being white doesn't mean you 'understand nothing' nor should you be so sensitive to Graeme's comment man. There is certainly insight into the culture of Muslims that yes, can only be fully understood and realized by those who grew up or were constantly surrounded by that culture, and in some ways that insight is more valuable than bearing witness to the attack first hand.

 

Btw, pretty sure Graeme is a white dude. Apologies if I'm wrong on that.

[SoulMonster]

He's a scot. Probably got diluted Viking blood, bless him.

[Graeme]

Guilty as charged...

[Len Cnut]

7 minutes ago, Dan H. said:

I didn't read anything Graeme said as being insulting to you personally man. Obviously you have had experiences on the front line of this conflict, and while you provide valuable insight onto the topical comings and goings of this terrible attack, and its aftermath, most of us (including Graeme, self admittedly, in his own post) are not privy to the cultural implications and motivations of Islam. For the most part it seems like the Muslim community is pretty quiet, private, and close knit, and having Amir and Len provide insight that most of us folks with Western, white, and middle to upper class experiences may not have been exposed to.

 

Being white doesn't mean you 'understand nothing' nor should you be so sensitive to Graeme's comment man. There is certainly insight into the culture of Muslims that yes, can only be fully understood and realized by those who grew up or were constantly surrounded by that culture, and in some ways that insight is more valuable than bearing witness to the attack first hand.

 

Btw, pretty sure Graeme is a white dude. Apologies if I'm wrong on that.

Lio's a girl by the way.  I think her perspective was more like, here and now, with the bodies of dead Belgians still warm, the last thing she wants to hear about is attempting to understand the demographic from where these problems are coming from, i can understand that.  Still dont mean Graeme was being out of order or anything, sensitive times and that yknow?

[Dan H.]

5 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

Lio's a girl by the way.  I think her perspective was more like, here and now, with the bodies of dead Belgians still warm, the last thing she wants to hear about is attempting to understand the demographic from where these problems are coming from, i can understand that.  Still dont mean Graeme was being out of order or anything, sensitive times and that yknow?

Oh yeah, for sure.

Sorry Lio, I never take a look at the gender icon on the avatars

Certainly not trying to dismiss your insight, like I said

[MB.]

I personally have clearly made a difference and clearly said we have a problem with a % of north african boys. Didn't even say muslims. 

Now Len's background is Pakistan and Anir's, I believe Iranian, it's nowhere near north Africa, so how could they represent the group most of us are talking about? You must understand that most muslims in Belgium, France, Germany and my country are from Turkey, Morocco or Algeria. And while the Turkish muslims are doing rather well, the last two are not. So why is that? Why are muslim immigrants from every other part of the world doing fine and why are a large % of the north african muslims boys doing not so good? When people talk negative about  muslims here, we know who they mean and it's that particular group. Most don't  have a problem with, Turkish people, Egypts, Iranians (those are actually doing extremely well)  or any other country. It are the north africans (boys/men) people talk about. You know that Morocco even complained about those boys and don't like them spending their vacation there, lol. 

Something else, most refugees are fleeing the war, meaning IS and Assad. Probably most are fleeing Assad. Not that it matters, it's horrible all together. But why are we even talking refugees, while the discussion was actually about the attacks in Belgium.

anyway, you have to understand we already had a problem with that group of north african boys and now IS influence some of these boys as well, resulting in Paris, Koln and Brussels. People are fed up. Why do we always have to be understanding and tiptooing. These boys are not liked, with a reason. Not out of racism, they just truly suck. And sure it's only a %, but it's a dangerous, loud, causing huge problems %. , 

And it's horrible for the real refugees, but people don't want another group of immigrants who could be the same as the ones I mentioned. Maybe they are entirely different, but people are too fed up to find out. Not that I agree, but I certainly understand.

 

Edited March 23, 2016 by MB.

[Graeme]

We're talking about this because Axl_owns_Dexter asked how many more Muslim immigrants was Europe going to admit while these attacks are still happening. The entire crux of my argument was that we can't allow these attacks to prevent our societies from helping innocent people in need because they happen to share the same religion as the attackers.

[MB.]

How many people can we help? We can't open our borders for entire Syria, also we have no idea who they are or where they exactly come from, since fake syrian passports are so easy to get. How many are coming to Scotland? It's Germany, Sweden, Belgium, England, The netherlands they want to go to and mainly to the big cities where we already have major issues. These attacks just prove how big the problems are and why people are scared shit of a group we can't prove all are real refugees. Not that hard to understand.

[Len Cnut]

25 minutes ago, MB. said:

I personally have clearly made a difference and clearly said we have a problem with a % of north african boys. Didn't even say muslims. 

Now Len's background is Pakistan and Anir's, I believe Iranian, it's nowhere near north Africa, so how could they represent the group most of us are talking about? You must understand that most muslims in Belgium, France, Germany and my country are from Turkey, Morocco or Algeria. And while the Turkish muslims are doing rather well, the last two are not. So why is that? Why are muslim immigrants from every other part of the world doing fine and why are a large % of the north african muslims boys doing not so good? When people talk negative about  muslims here, we know who they mean and it's that particular group. Most don't  have a problem with, Turkish people, Egypts, Iranians (those are actually doing extremely well)  or any other country. It are the north africans (boys/men) people talk about. You know that Morocco even complained about those boys and don't like them spending their vacation there, lol. 

Something else, most refugees are fleeing the war, meaning IS and Assad. Probably most are fleeing Assad. Not that it matters, it's horrible all together. But why are we even talking refugees, while the discussion was actually about the attacks in Belgium.

anyway, you have to understand we already had a problem with that group of north african boys and now IS influence some of these boys as well, resulting in Paris, Koln and Brussels. People are fed up. Why do we always have to be understanding and tiptooing. These boys are not liked, with a reason. Not out of racism, they just truly suck. And sure it's only a %, but it's a dangerous, loud, causing huge problems %. , 

And it's horrible for the real refugees, but people don't want another group of immigrants who could be the same as the ones I mentioned. Maybe they are entirely different, but people are too fed up to find out. Not that I agree, but I certainly understand.

 

Without trying to fan any flames of prejudice every Algerian and Morrocan lad i know (and i know a few) is a MASSIVE wrong un over here too.  I'm not saying shit about Algerians and Morrocans cuz the ones i know are very much like...street type people but there's a consistency there.  I just always took them to be like...i dunno, street people from tough kind of areas so it perhaps has that effect on you. 

Never struck me as the most religious people.  I mean they talk about it a fair bit but there certainly ain't a lot of follow through from what I've seen.

Edited March 23, 2016 by Len B'stard

[Dazey]

Personally I've no problem blaming Islam as a major contributory factor here. It's only one of many though. All ancient religions preach this shit. The people (ie the vast majority) who ignore the worst shit are not to blame but that is not to say that the people who commit these atrocities are not in the purest sense followers of their religion. 

Edited March 23, 2016 by Dazey

[shades]

exactly right, if a country was being attacked by American White men who were using their misguided views about Christianity to justify killing innocent people, so they decided to temporarily ban American white men until they got a handle on screening the bad guys better, I would have no problem with them banning me from their country and would fully understand. There has to be a basic understanding of reality here when dealing with possible mass killings

[PappyTron]

10 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

It is mass-simplification to an extent where it really becomes irrelevant. No one here is advocating completely open borders, are there? The real situation is more like 100.000 knocking on your door and 1 of these perhaps wanting to kill you depending upon what happens. Through better integration, turning someone away at the door who raises red flags, demanding that the immigrants do their part in integration, removing external factors for conflicts, preventing radicalization, preventing travels to foreign countries to take part if wars, etc, we can still accept modest immigration with very little negative effects. In my humble opinion. We have failed at this before, now we have to learn from our mistakes.

Additionally, most terrorists are not immigrants, they are descendants of immigrants, like first generation and second generation. We don't import terrorists (for most parts), we import immigrants and together with them we breed terrorists.

The fundamental issue though is mass immigration of people who possess a culture that is anathematic to our own. The truth is that radicalisation is an extremely simple and easy process, and one that is made all the simpler when the target group's core belief is that the west must fall. I hate to break this to you, but every Muslim, even if in the back of their mind, is aware of what the Koran and Hadiths say about the west. They may choose to ignore it and they may choose to practice a more "moderate" (read: inaccurate) form of Islam, but the knowledge is still there. You then say that there needs to be better integration, and I agree. However, the integration must come from the visitor, not the host, and that integration is generational; you're looking at 50-60 years, at least. Moreover, moving away from terrorism and look at all of the other issues; healthcare services, educational issues, rape gangs... It is lunacy to try and take cultures that are poles apart and try and smash them together into a giant, harmonious unit. Just like the Roman, I can see the Tiber foaming with much blood.

Edited March 23, 2016 by PappyTron

[JeanGenie]

10 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Absolutely nothing suggests they are. This is pure fearmongering and villifying of a large group of diverse people. These kinds of statements send shivers down my spine, as it should to everyone who knows a little history.

You dont live where I live. I had the same expirience @MB. described. When the attacks in Paris happened I could hear people celebrating while the news were on the telly. On new years eve several thousand men of arabian descend tried to rape and rob women in several cities. My daughter told me that other kids (muslims) at her school told her she had to wear a headscarf in a couple of years because muslims are about to take over the country. Im fed up with this shit. 

[PappyTron]

11 minutes ago, JeanGenie said:

You dont live where I live. I had the same expirience @MB. described. When the attacks in Paris happened I could hear people celebrating while the news were on the telly. On new years eve several thousand men of arabian descend tried to rape and rob women in several cities. My daughter told me that other kids (muslims) at her school told her she had to wear a headscarf in a couple of years because muslims are about to take over the country. Im fed up with this shit. 

You do know that Soul Monster and Graeme's replies will be "Well, that's just a very small minority and we shouldn't judge the majority by them", right?!

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

2 of the terrorists are dead. One is missing and I heard the Belgium police were questioning a fourth person today.

The news spoke to many people who live in Belgium and they all said they would go about their business and not be afraid. that's amazing to feel like that!

Kudos to them all.

[JeanGenie]

6 minutes ago, PappyTron said:

You do know that Soul Monster and Graeme's replies will be "Well, that's just a very small minority and we shouldn't judge the majority by them", right?!

I know that. I have no idea in which countries they are living and how many immigrants with this particular ideology are living there but it's always easy to demand other people to open their hearts and pockets and say 'thank you' after you got kicked in the face. 

[Graeme]

6 hours ago, MB. said:

How many people can we help? We can't open our borders for entire Syria, also we have no idea who they are or where they exactly come from, since fake syrian passports are so easy to get. How many are coming to Scotland? It's Germany, Sweden, Belgium, England, The netherlands they want to go to and mainly to the big cities where we already have major issues. These attacks just prove how big the problems are and why people are scared shit of a group we can't prove all are real refugees. Not that hard to understand.

With all due respect, although that's a really important issue, it's tangential to the point I was debating. I'm not arguing that every refugee coming from Syria can, or should, be housed by European countries. Whether it's possible to do so is an issue of space and resources, most countries receive asylum seekers and refugees from all over the world and all different sets of circumstances, it just so happens that currently a huge number of people are coming from Syria.

The point I was arguing was simply that I disagreed with Axl_owns_dexter's assertion that (as I interpreted it) "All Muslims as probably terrorists" and that indiscriminately stopping them all from entering Europe is a morally acceptable way of preventing terrorist attacks like this from happening. If you're going to have 'us versus them' mentality then it's pretty important to identify who 'we' and 'they' actually are, or actually should be and I think it's been argued fairly convincingly by others in this thread, not just me, that most of them are fairly ordinary working men, women and children just trying to make a decent life for themselves. Not monsters who want to kill everyone and burn the world.

[PappyTron]

11 minutes ago, Graeme said:

With all due respect, although that's a really important issue, it's tangential to the point I was debating. I'm not arguing that every refugee coming from Syria can, or should, be housed by European countries. Whether it's possible to do so is an issue of space and resources, most countries receive asylum seekers and refugees from all over the world and all different sets of circumstances, it just so happens that currently a huge number of people are coming from Syria.

The point I was arguing was simply that I disagreed with Axl_owns_dexter's assertion that (as I interpreted it) "All Muslims as probably terrorists" and that indiscriminately stopping them all from entering Europe is a morally acceptable way of preventing terrorist attacks like this from happening. If you're going to have 'us versus them' mentality then it's pretty important to identify who 'we' and 'they' actually are, or actually should be and I think it's been argued fairly convincingly by others in this thread, not just me, that most of them are fairly ordinary working men, women and children just trying to make a decent life for themselves. Not monsters who want to kill everyone and burn the world.

The issue is though, Graeme, that when you have a religion that is fundamentally about destroying the western heathens you will always find yourself in a situation where it does not take much to turn a regular man, woman or child into someone who is willing to blow themselves up. In fact, it is extremely easy to turn a regular person into a religious fundamentalist; all it takes is disenfranchisement, peer pressure, promise of reward and opportunity. That's it. So, that leaves us in the situation of having millions of people that we are trying to help, whose culture is extremely different to ours and whose religion hinges on destroying the world; that is a recipe for disaster. Like I said in a previous post, Europe and the middle east have never been friends, yet people want to integrate millions of them into our societies and then act surprised when it all goes wrong. There is a reason why, in the main, Belgians, French, Germans, Brits, the Dutch et al, have never flocked to live in Morocco, Algiers, Syria, Afghanistan and so many other places.

Helping refugees is an important issue, but it should not come at the cost of negatively affecting the country in which they land; don't flee to a country and then complain that you feel isolated because it isn't enough like home and that people who were born there should somehow change their lives to accommodate you (that goes for ALL refugees of any ilk).

My alma mater brother Christopher Hitchens was 100% correct in his assertion; religion poisons everything.

[Len Cnut]

5 hours ago, PappyTron said:

The fundamental issue though is mass immigration of people who possess a culture that is anathematic to our own. The truth is that radicalisation is an extremely simple and easy process, and one that is made all the simpler when the target group's core belief is that the west must fall. I hate to break this to you, but every Muslim, even if in the back of their mind, is aware of what the Koran and Hadiths say about the west. They may choose to ignore it and they may choose to practice a more "moderate" (read: inaccurate) form of Islam, but the knowledge is still there. You then say that there needs to be better integration, and I agree. However, the integration must come from the visitor, not the host, and that integration is generational; you're looking at 50-60 years, at least. Moreover, moving away from terrorism and look at all of the other issues; healthcare services, educational issues, rape gangs... It is lunacy to try and take cultures that are poles apart and try and smash them together into a giant, harmonious unit. Just like the Roman, I can see the Tiber foaming with much blood.

I gotta make a point here, y'know what makes radicalisation easy?  It's this.  You're told every muslim is your brother right?  And say for instance, if you're a British asian that the people in Pakistan are your people.  They're dying, they're getting killed by Hindus/India.  They hate you.  They're attacking your people.  They're attacking them BECAUSE they are muslim, which means the only reason you ain't being attacked is because you ain't there to be attacked.  Then you look at Palestine.  You're told that, again, these are your people, your brothers.  They are dying EVERY day.  They are people that don't have the means to fight back facing an army.  They suicide bomb yes but why?  Because they have no other means.  How else do you fight an army if you don't have one of your own?  These people carry their mothers, brothers, sisters, fathers on their backs to their graves.  And nobody cares.  And you have no voice, you will not be heard, the agents that want to invade muslim countries will go in, bomb the shit out of them and then play it all out on the news like they've done some noble thing and EVERYBODY will believe them because the news and newspapers are where the average person gets their information.  And young men have a black and white mentality, it's why they once loved cowboys films and until recently loved action movies, the violent triumph of good over evil, the underdog standing up and fighting in the face of oppression.  And it's REALLY not difficult to point out, to politically ignorant young men, examples of muslim countries getting fucked up and being wronged.  It's not always the whole story but it's there.  Giving your life for your country or way of life is not actually an alien thing.  it's kinda what armies of the world teach their soldiers is kind of a noble thing, dulce et dacorum est and all that.  Or someone like Bobby Sands who starved to death for his, he said to the priest who came to him in his last days that he had nothing on his conscience and was giving his life for his brother man and he felt that that was the highest service they can provide.  

CNN news coverage when there's a war in Iraq...or Afghanistan...a constant loop of booming bombs and gunfire as a MASSIVE power swoops in and basically crushes this country...and your young radicalisation subject is sitting watching this, on a repeating feed every 15 mins, with the thought of 'these are my people' running through their heads.  The celebrations after a successful campaign, the self congratulating and talk of valour and bravery against 'evil'.  

THATS what radicalises kids.  Otherwise there have been muslims here for ages, decades even, there were no suicide bombings or crazy shit going on...and it's not like there was a lack of em in the 70s and 80s.  This is how it is to do with politics primarily, all those things are political, all those rationalisations are political.  It is specifically to do with what is happening in the world around us.  Religion frames it, religion at the core of it, religion is what gives them the strength to willingly submit their lives and not do terrorism in a more IRA sense of the word where you do the terrorist act and actually get out alive...but it's not the reason FOR the terrorism.  

Every religion believes, by definition of what they are, that their religion will prevail in the end.  Christianity believes that, Islam believes that, they all do, thats kinda the point, it's like 'this is THE way'.  Its kinda framed to be a case of 'the Qu'ran states that war against the west is your duty' well...not really.  Islam dictates that Islam will eventually prevail, it will be seen and recognised as THE thing.  But so does Christianity, Jesus is gonna come back, save the Christians, the rest of the world is fucked, thats the thing right?  So are muslims to take for granted then that Christianity preaches that it's gonna takeover the East?  Thats pretty much what it amounts to, right?  And then when you look at the amount of campaigns of war going on, the amount of bombing campaigns and forced regime changes etc etc etc, how do you think that effects the mind of the subject of radicalisation?  People like George Bush saying God spoke to them and they're doing this in the name of God...isn't that kinda the same thing as whats going on from the muslim end?  

Whats killed more people do you think, Islamic terrorism or the Iraq war, the Afghan war and all the instances of whatever forces from the west being over in muslim countries?  I get the feeling, with Americans particularly, that it's generally felt that this all began with 9/11 and one day these muslims just up and went 'y'know what, we hate these guyses freedoms, lets attack em!'...this is how it felt, watching it from over here, that it was this massive shock, with of course on one level it is/was but at the same time...is that how it feels?  That like, y'know, we're just merrily going along and one day these crazy fuckers just randomly went for us?  All these skirmishes, these wars, these middle east issues where you're involved, they're just...the news, just something on TV, you feel remote from it, you feel your country is remote from it and it's really nothing to do with you, despite your involvement in these nations.  And it's not a new thing, it's nowhere near a new thing, Christ, in Kashmir they been talking about jihad in this sense for over 50 years, against India who, they feel, will not allow them the freedom to be an independent nation.  Afghans fighting against the Russians in the 80s, that was jihad.  They were kinda cute back then, weren't they?  At some  point some special boys in that area turned around and went 'hang on, i think I'm getting the idea whoose been pulling the strings with this shit all this while'.  And all these things are to do with a clear and present political situation in the here and now that drives men to action, not scripture.

These are the things, the ideas, the concepts that radicalise young men, it's political, it's like 90% political.  It's backed up by scripture but thats just speaking of the overall triumph, it's kinda remote from your present, your today, something immediate that spurs you to action, thats just like the comfort that helps in making it so these guys can give their lives, the actual motives, the catalyst are totally political and were there not scripture, were there not the umbrella of Islam you'd have secular militias in the same way any number of terrorist groups do.  The religion is just the rhetoric that says you have divine providence on your side.  Cuz y'know, scripture don't do a lot for young men and honestly, most of them don't have the brains to understand it one way or the other.  I went to a Madrassa for YEARS of my life, literally years, 5 or 6 at least and y'know what, i didn't learn thing fuckin' one about the religion, all they teach you is how to read the Qu'ran in Arabic and memorise parts of it...n thats it.  Literally not thing one in terms of explaining the scripture or what it means, it's literally the equivalent of learning the sounds of the british alphabet and how to join em into words but not actually what the words mean.  But you can sure listen to some guy telling you stuff.  And then talking about the news, about wars, about oppression and all this stuff thats apparently going on.

And after that it's just about how much of a badman you are...whether you're just someone that like to talk like a man or acts like a man or are someone that can actually stand up.  Sounds stupid doesn't it?  Thats cuz it is but when you're a lad, to a certain kind of person or a certain cross-section of society that sort of thing means a lot, it's easy to spur someone into action questioning their manhood...or leaving them questioning their own manhood.  Like what good are you if you can't stand up for your people?  If someone came into your house and went for your family would you do nothing then?  If you're walking the streets with your missus and someone accosts yous are you gonna do nothing then?  Well if you can stand up and fight for your rights here you can go and do it for your brothers over there who have no one etc etc and all the other cheap ham-fisted tactics used by people that try to stir a person by virtue of masculine pride.  

See it's difficult to understand over here (though i get the feeling Americans get it moreso than any other western country) how people can be spurred into actions with such tawdry tactics because the masculine thing has been so brutally deconstructed here that its increasingly hard to pick at peoples pride so obviously and have them moved to action but its still possible, groups like EDL and Britain First are doing it today, the IRA do it, Americans do it, if you threaten certain principles of what Americans believe in they attack back with a kind of zeal that you don't really see a lot of in the west anymore, kinda like on the gun control issue, I've seen some people (online of course) SERIOUSLY flip about that, why, cuz it's to do with some of the fundamental principles that they hold dear.  

But yeah, take away the political angle and the religion alone is not enough and has not been enough prior to the post 9/11 world to lead to the kinda shit we're seeing today.  To say that the fundamental problem is to do with culture clash and not politics is just really missing the mark i think, hugely so and y'know, one could be forgiven for thinking that, for a great many, that shit has to do with not wanting to look at the world and how your country and your government, whatever country you may be from, how they figure in the overall landscape here.  It might even involve thinking from the terrorist point of view for a moment *gasp*.  To say it's a culture clash thing is kinda making it about immigration basically, it's saying look, you bring these people over here and look, they turn on you eventually cuz thats who they are and what they believe...you can't possibly look at all thats gone on politically, all the political rhetoric spouted by terrorists and take this issue that is to do really with international politics and turn it into some localised things where it's like 'OK, so whats REALLY the problem here?  Well they're fighting, they're attacking, they're attacking here, in this land.  Well, if we hadn't've let em in they wouldn't be here to attack us'.  It kinda makes out that, y'know, fuck em, let em fight it out over there by themselves.  We'll just nip in for the odd regime change out of common decency every so often, y'know, just for the sake of goodness...not that we're getting anything out of it ourselves, heaven forbid!'.  

Reminds me of something Jean Genie said on here that really hit home to me, something to do with like...this is nowhere near word for word but the gist of it, if i recall correctly, and I'm not having a go at him here, in fact I'm citing something he said for it's accuracy, that basically prosperity is almost always at the expense of someone but I'd rather be on the profitable end with someone suffering at the business end.  Which kinda sums the overall position up.  Which is fine, I can understand that and i think given the same proposition most sane human beings would respond the same way.  But then don't talk about rights...don't talk about justice and don't talk about humanity.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Len B'stard

[PappyTron]

17 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

...

Right, but politics, in this sense, is the crystalisation of the religious doctrine. It is the politics that is saying "look, my Brother, at what is happening in Syria. This is what the Holy Koran warned us about and Muhammad, peace by upon him, told us what we need to do". As always, it is never the leader, the Ayatollahs and Imams who are blowing themselves up; it is always some poor sap who has been goaded into it. As you say, it is easy to question a person's manhood when the scales you are using has God on one end of it. Basically "If you are a true believer then you will do XYZ, and if you don't then you are kafir and will be cast into Hell". I also agree that a lot of this current fallout can be traced back to the west's constant intervention into the east. The west never learns its lesson; the Mujahadin are fighting the Russians? Great, let's give them Billions of $ and top notch weapons. Afghan warlords will keep the peace if we give them money and weapons? Sure, what could go wrong?

Ultimately, it's a human issue, at the end of the day. We all feel that us and our lot are the good guys and the other group are the baddies. Like you say, it's cowboys and Indians, just on a global, millennium wide scale. The naivety in Europe, and America in particular, is staggering. You cannot bomb people into rubble and then act surprised when they don't like you. You cannot fire a $1,000,000 missile into an apartment building and say "We're very sorry. Hey, we're bringing you guys freedom". However, at the same time, as humans, you can't sit back and let people be slaughtered. It's horrendously complicated, yet surprisingly simple at the same time. Basically though, "us" and "them" don't much like each other in the main, and I won't hold my breath for peace in any sense of the word, any time soon.

[Len Cnut]

Right so without the politics crystallising it the religion alone isn't substantial enough to elicit the response.  They're mad but they ain't THAT fuckin' mad   But the politics, even without the religion, is enough to produce terrorism.  And thats the point I'm making.  I tell ya what though, you really start to hear some pretty humanitarian people whistling a different tune when this shit hits home.  It's worth thinking y'know about how we react to the POTENTIAL of threat and what the reactions of people that lives under the constant rain of fire might be feeling.  

The sad part is it's all for nothing.  It's all for the biggest fuckin' nothing in history.  To me the worlds really simple, the people in power fuck over their subjects and whoever the fucks in charge, regardless of religion or creed or race, is there to a large degree cuz they've had the requisite guile to keep the ones under them in their place.  I have no illusions about the fact that like, whoever was the superpower of the day they wouldn't be beyond doing some of the things America are doing...and a great many of em would do a helluva lot fucking worse.  There is no moral equivalency, no higher principle, no just ends here...just a bunch of people ripping another bunch of people off.  The best you can do i suppose is, like the Jean Genie thing, pray you find yourself far from the thin end of the wedge.

[Graeme]

So who are 'us' and who are 'them'? Are 'they' ISIS or are they Muslims in general? Are Len and Amir part of 'us'? Do I get to keep Ray, one of my best pals who's a Bangladeshi Muslim?

[Len Cnut]

I'm committed to the Eddie Hitler principle of 'you get born, you keep your head down...and then you die.  If you're lucky', i ain't a part of anything