Terrorist attack thread

[Len Cnut]

3 hours ago, Lio said:

Well, we're talking about 'our' Muslims of course, and then only the ones that are causing problems. I just felt offended because it seemed that whatever experience some of us had was dismissed because we didn't stipulate that not every single Muslim wants us all dead. We're talking about the terrorist attacks, an acute danger. I can't be specifying in every post that 'the west' has done so many wrong things and of course I don't think a Syrian baby, woman or man doesn't deserve to live in peace. I feel sometimes things have to be said and sometimes there's a need to be blunt about it. There is a problem, and it's always the same people causing it.

The huge difference to me between the threat of a terrorist attack and dying from lightning or in a car crash, is that in the first case, people are actually out to kill me. Other people, who I don't know, who I've never met or done anything wrong, are out to kill me in an atrocious, cowardly way. In my mind, that's a huge difference. We're talking about people who grew up here, safe and well, people who got an education (many of them couldn't be bothered to finish it, but that's another story), got a lot of chances, while not denying that they probably were confronted with racism, but they decided to turn on us and kill us and try to destroy our society. That to me is a million times more scary than getting in the car and maybe get hit, or coming out of bed and maybe breaking my neck.

I'm sorry you had to go through that. I'm not sure I could rationalise it like you can. It probably wouldn't have detered me from flying when I was younger either, but becoming a mum has changed all that. I'm trying not to let it influence me too much, but I won't be flying any time soon, and I won't be going to places where huge crowds are expected, rational or not.

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Action_Party

see the name of the guy who founded it? I used to sit next to his son in school

 

EDIT: whoops meant to quote MB there, sorry Lio!

Edited March 24, 2016 by Len B'stard
fucked up the quote

[Bumblefeet]

47 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

The bit that cracks me up is he goes 'they find they don't belong here, OK, we'll go to ISIS and belong there'...uh, excuse me?!?   Thats a bit of a fuckin' leap, isn't it?  Like genocide is the first obvious response to feeling unwanted, i never fuckin' felt wanted in school here, all it made me do was listen to Nirvana

It's not that big a leap when you look back at when ISIS started; lots of European Muslims and especially youth were drawn to their militaristic imagery and propaganda through social media. "ISIS was cool". I once saw a report on a couple in France who did nothing else but make IS flags and sell them online throughout Europe. They couldn't keep up with the demand. So for many of these youths who didn't feel they belonged anywhere, already had problems with justice and the police and were frustrated from seeing muslims getting slaughtered in Syria, an organisation like ISIS and an Islamic State promised them not only new beginning, but a chance to rebel against the current system where they felt they didn't belong. When they'd join IS, they'd become sung heroes and would get lots of women and get promised paradise. For the first time in their lives they would amount to something and be part of a bigger cause. Add a mix of puberty/rebellion and testosterone to the mix and you get a youth who is ignorant enough in willing to participate.

Edited March 24, 2016 by Bumblefeet

[shades]

If there is anything the US can do to help, logistics, additional security, share intelligence info, please let us know, we're not busy right now

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/obama-dancing-tango-argentina/index.html

[Dan H.]

12 minutes ago, shades said:

If there is anything the US can do to help, logistics, additional security, share intelligence info, please let us know, we're not busy right now

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/obama-dancing-tango-argentina/index.html

Yeah that looks pretty bad. Argentina has been on a pretty successful track with their democratic government, and their economy is doing quite well. Right now they are a perfect example of all the ideologies America needs to be pioneering in the world. Argentinians successfully restored democracy and stability to their country, aggressively prosecuted military and political figures who were suspected of human rights violations, and are quickly become a very valuable and powerful ally.

Shame that this tango dancing thing is all the major news outlets want to discuss about the meeting. While I don't think it's indicative of the POTUS doing a poor job handling the recent attack on Europe, it certainly looks unprofessional and irresponsible, given that he should have championed our democratic friend and neighbor to the world more heavily, and labeled them a success and working model of modern democracy.

I'm not going to blame Obama entirely for the media circus surrounding the dancing, as it is out of his control to a degree, but his staff and press team should have known better, and after 8 years, he probably should know better too. Especially poor timing given the criticism of the Rays game in Cuba too. 

 

I really like his down to Earth, relaxed, and collected approach to his PR as President. Dude likes to have fun, and isn't awkward about it like other politicians. But there have been several times during his Presidency where I think he has taken it a little too far. Maybe he gets a little bit more exposure during his leisure time because both he and the FLOTUS are quite a bit more web press and social media savvy than President W Bush was. (But even he caught flack for various perceived unprofessional-isms. 'Dog salute', lots of vacation time, golfing 'too often', and of course the incident at the Florida School on 9/11). Even then, I felt as though Bush's missteps were less frequent.

Either way, Obama should fire the idiot on his press team that let him take that photo. Nobody is saying the POTUS can't dance, enjoy other countries culture, and unwind, but perhaps he should exercise better judgment on the images released to the media.

[Axl owns dexter]

4 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Yes, the war. I have had the pleasure of discussing German's role in Europe and the burden they carry especially in regards to the mass immigration, with quite a few Germans lately, and a few of them have on their own accord suggested they have a collective guilt for what their country has been doing in the past and now want to make up for it. Whether it is a conscious thing that they actually think of or simply a subconscious mentality ingrained in the German psyche since 1945, I don't know, but that is what I am told.

That's called being brainwashed. No different then people in the US who feel active guilt about slavery and the American Indians.

[classicrawker]

56 minutes ago, shades said:

If there is anything the US can do to help, logistics, additional security, share intelligence info, please let us know, we're not busy right now

http://www.cnn.com/2016/03/23/politics/obama-dancing-tango-argentina/index.html

Yeah because while Obama is on Argentina the rest of Washington is sitting there with their thumbs up their butts just waiting for him to get back before they assist Belgium.

The U.S. Government is actively involved in supporting Belgium with anything they need so this whining about him traveling  is just a bunch of nonsense and just another reason for the haters to criticize him.

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/wireStory/cuba-obama-briefed-brussels-attacks-37835200

[shades]

33 minutes ago, Dan H. said:

 

 

Either way, Obama should fire the idiot on his press team that let him take that photo. Nobody is saying the POTUS can't dance, enjoy other countries culture, and unwind, but perhaps he should exercise better judgment on the images released to the media.

I know that the potus can not be all business 24/7. But in light of the importance in combating global terrorism and all that it is affecting, ie millions of people in Europe left homeless becomming refugess impacting other nations, the biggest super powers bombing each others allies, and then this bombing in Brussels, In my opinion the president should have flew home immediately and gathered with not only his but the European security teams to make sure this wasn't part of a bigger plan unfolding. I know he can conduct business from anywhere in the world, blah blah blah, but at the very least, as you mentioned he should refrain from hot dogs and beer at a baseball game or tango'ing with babes while countries are mourning their dead from terror attacks.

[Dan H.]

14 minutes ago, shades said:

I know that the potus can not be all business 24/7. But in light of the importance in combating global terrorism and all that it is affecting, ie millions of people in Europe left homeless becomming refugess impacting other nations, the biggest super powers bombing each others allies, and then this bombing in Brussels, In my opinion the president should have flew home immediately and gathered with not only his but the European security teams to make sure this wasn't part of a bigger plan unfolding. I know he can conduct business from anywhere in the world, blah blah blah, but at the very least, as you mentioned he should refrain from hot dogs and beer at a baseball game or tango'ing with babes while countries are mourning their dead from terror attacks.

Agreed. Comes off as poor taste

[classicrawker]

9 minutes ago, shades said:

I know that the potus can not be all business 24/7. But in light of the importance in combating global terrorism and all that it is affecting, ie millions of people in Europe left homeless becomming refugess impacting other nations, the biggest super powers bombing each others allies, and then this bombing in Brussels, In my opinion the president should have flew home immediately and gathered with not only his but the European security teams to make sure this wasn't part of a bigger plan unfolding. I know he can conduct business from anywhere in the world, blah blah blah, but at the very least, as you mentioned he should refrain from hot dogs and beer at a baseball game or tango'ing with babes while countries are mourning their dead from terror attacks.

From the PR point of view I understand where you are coming from but the man has an experienced infrastructure working for him back in Washington that is actively supporting the Belgians on this issue. I also have no doubt that he was directing efforts the whole time he was on the trip working with John Kerry and others.

 

[PappyTron]

7 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

A good article on Belgium's struggle with extremism: http://edition.cnn.com/2016/03/21/europe/belgium-terror-fight-molenbeek/

"We're talking about third- and fourth-generation [immigrants]; these youngsters are born in Belgium, even their fathers and mothers are born in Belgium, and still they are open for these kind of messages. This is not normal -- in the U.S., the second generation was the President; here, the fourth generation is an IS fighter -- so that is really something we have to work on."

 

I don't think that that is a fair point of comparison with the US, given that America has a whole group of people, in African-Americans, who feel disenfranchised, looked down upon and many of the things which Muslim immigrants/children of immigrants, feel in Europe. Other than immigration status, there is next to no difference.

[Len Cnut]

4 hours ago, Axl owns dexter said:

That's called being brainwashed. No different then people in the US who feel active guilt about slavery and the American Indians.

I think it's decency.  It's irrational also but still decency.  What is fucked up is not recognising it as irrational and making it effect your judgement to a point where you create a cultural imbalance...but to just see those things and feel remorse and guilt that they happened under the banner of your nation, if you love your country, i don't see how you could not feel that.  As someone from a muslim background, to a point i do kinda feel a guilt for what goes on under it's name and feel like it's my duty to not embody a stereotype in my behaviour and conduct.  I dont even follow of believe in the thing but it's still me, it's still what i come from, it's still in my name, people still see me according to it.  Shit, i feel even a kinda guilt about slavery, just off the fact that I'm a fuckin' human being and human beings can do that against each other.  After all, what is guilt, it's kind of a culpability isn't it?  A diluted one in these sorts of instances based on something thats gone on under a banner loosely associated to you.  I don't think it's an emotion to be led by by any means, just understood and filed under 'by-product of having a fuckin' heart'.  Why do we feel rotten when we see something inhuman happening?  At the core of that response is because we are human beings and philsophically speaking, to a point, it's a reflection of us.

The thing about national pride and loving your country is it cuts both ways, you can't just pick to celebrate the good things, if you got a heart you should feel something emotionally about the bad things too.  Otherwise it's probably something other than love for your country you feel and something more like hopping on the bandwagon of something by association to feel better about yourself.  Or just as a human being, it's important i think to temper our marvelling at the human race and all it's achievements with a dose of remorse and sadness for some of the atrocities committed.  Cuz it's all us, at the end of the day.  

Edited March 24, 2016 by Len B'stard

[Len Cnut]

6 hours ago, Bumblefeet said:

It's not that big a leap when you look back at when ISIS started; lots of European Muslims and especially youth were drawn to their militaristic imagery and propaganda through social media. "ISIS was cool". I once saw a report on a couple in France who did nothing else but make IS flags and sell them online throughout Europe. They couldn't keep up with the demand. So for many of these youths who didn't feel they belonged anywhere, already had problems with justice and the police and were frustrated from seeing muslims getting slaughtered in Syria, an organisation like ISIS and an Islamic State promised them not only new beginning, but a chance to rebel against the current system where they felt they didn't belong. When they'd join IS, they'd become sung heroes and would get lots of women and get promised paradise. For the first time in their lives they would amount to something and be part of a bigger cause. Add a mix of puberty/rebellion and testosterone to the mix and you get a youth who is ignorant enough in willing to participate.

Surely though, when the reality of life and having open eyes hits you, romanticism aside, you must realise that at the core of it you are responding to a degree social inequality (and we're not talking about Kristalnact shit here) with 'I'm gonna fuckin' kill a lot of people!'.  You have to be a pretty massive dickhead to go from one to the other.  I dunno, i just have a naturally suspicious mind, i think everyone has an angle, when some goes on at me about something in the way radicalisers and propaganda people do my immediate response is 'what are they getting out of this?'.  You kinda learn those instinctive cognitive traits from an early age right, I mean...i dunno how it is, i don't think it's some kinda fuckin' magic but you can't you just smell a weasel when you're around one?  When somethings not right, when you're being blagged or taken advantage of.  Sold something.  I mean the kind of propaganda that does this shit is always so obviously, so patently one sided, just seems comical to me.  Sinister also obviously but at the same time like...very difficult to take as any kind of astute reflection of anything.

[PappyTron]

13 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

Surely though, when the reality of life and having open eyes hits you, romanticism aside, you must realise that at the core of it you are responding to a degree social inequality (and we're not talking about Kristalnact shit here) with 'I'm gonna fuckin' kill a lot of people!'.  You have to be a pretty massive dickhead to go from one to the other.  I dunno, i just have a naturally suspicious mind, i think everyone has an angle, when some goes on at me about something in the way radicalisers and propaganda people do my immediate response is 'what are they getting out of this?'.  You kinda learn those instinctive cognitive traits from an early age right, I mean...i dunno how it is, i don't think it's some kinda fuckin' magic but you can't you just smell a weasel when you're around one?  When somethings not right, when you're being blagged or taken advantage of.  Sold something.  I mean the kind of propaganda that does this shit is always so obviously, so patently one sided, just seems comical to me.  Sinister also obviously but at the same time like...very difficult to take as any kind of astute reflection of anything.

That's because you aren't the target group, Len. Radicalisers, like any other group that wants something, goes for the easiest targets. A conman goes for the little old lady, not the savvy businessman or lawyer, and the same holds with those who try to radicalise people through religion; look for someone that is on the fringes, unhappy with their lot in life and generally susceptible to planted ideas, and go from there. People are the easiest thing in the world, in the main, to con and certain groups are even more so; it's why child soldiers are so popular.

[Apollo]

6 hours ago, Dan H. said:

Yeah that looks pretty bad. Argentina has been on a pretty successful track with their democratic government, and their economy is doing quite well. Right now they are a perfect example of all the ideologies America needs to be pioneering in the world. Argentinians successfully restored democracy and stability to their country, aggressively prosecuted military and political figures who were suspected of human rights violations, and are quickly become a very valuable and powerful ally.

Shame that this tango dancing thing is all the major news outlets want to discuss about the meeting. While I don't think it's indicative of the POTUS doing a poor job handling the recent attack on Europe, it certainly looks unprofessional and irresponsible, given that he should have championed our democratic friend and neighbor to the world more heavily, and labeled them a success and working model of modern democracy.

I'm not going to blame Obama entirely for the media circus surrounding the dancing, as it is out of his control to a degree, but his staff and press team should have known better, and after 8 years, he probably should know better too. Especially poor timing given the criticism of the Rays game in Cuba too. 

 

I really like his down to Earth, relaxed, and collected approach to his PR as President. Dude likes to have fun, and isn't awkward about it like other politicians. But there have been several times during his Presidency where I think he has taken it a little too far. Maybe he gets a little bit more exposure during his leisure time because both he and the FLOTUS are quite a bit more web press and social media savvy than President W Bush was. (But even he caught flack for various perceived unprofessional-isms. 'Dog salute', lots of vacation time, golfing 'too often', and of course the incident at the Florida School on 9/11). Even then, I felt as though Bush's missteps were less frequent.

Either way, Obama should fire the idiot on his press team that let him take that photo. Nobody is saying the POTUS can't dance, enjoy other countries culture, and unwind, but perhaps he should exercise better judgment on the images released to the media.

Great post. 

I love seeing posters who can look at situations rationally and logically without being influenced by one political side.  Some posters on here fit that classic cliche and can't see anything without a political bias. Guys like you and Shades and Len don't do that, and the forum is better off because of it. So thank you!!!

[Len Cnut]

2 hours ago, PappyTron said:

That's because you aren't the target group, Len. Radicalisers, like any other group that wants something, goes for the easiest targets. A conman goes for the little old lady, not the savvy businessman or lawyer, and the same holds with those who try to radicalise people through religion; look for someone that is on the fringes, unhappy with their lot in life and generally susceptible to planted ideas, and go from there. People are the easiest thing in the world, in the main, to con and certain groups are even more so; it's why child soldiers are so popular.

But i mean these guys are supposed to be street type of fellas, bad boys some of em, lads, wrong uns in the sort of pikey sense of the world, people like that aint stupid, not in the sense of being susceptible to a con otherwise they wouldnt last a minute out there in the world.  If you've ever hung around with dealers, crooks etc they're not like...thick in the sense that they are easy to lead or hoodwink.  

[PappyTron]

19 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

But i mean these guys are supposed to be street type of fellas, bad boys some of em, lads, wrong uns in the sort of pikey sense of the world, people like that aint stupid, not in the sense of being susceptible to a con otherwise they wouldnt last a minute out there in the world.  If you've ever hung around with dealers, crooks etc they're not like...thick in the sense that they are easy to lead or hoodwink.  

No, but the underlying pinnings are there and it's in a Holy Book. It boils down to gradual psychological manipulation whereby ideas are implanted slowly to the point where the target person doesn't realise that their views are actually starting to change.

[MB.]

27 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

But i mean these guys are supposed to be street type of fellas, bad boys some of em, lads, wrong uns in the sort of pikey sense of the world, people like that aint stupid, not in the sense of being susceptible to a con otherwise they wouldnt last a minute out there in the world.  If you've ever hung around with dealers, crooks etc they're not like...thick in the sense that they are easy to lead or hoodwink.  

Agreed, they are not stupid. Actually I knew several street type of fellas growing up, they were actually really really smart. Never understood why they didn't use it for school, instead of criminal activities. Had so many discussions about that. Nowadays they do have a big mouth, thinking they can do everything and everybody will bow ans respect them automaticly. I think they like the power, like playing a game irl. Maybe even less for religion, but more they have this weird romantic view of it all. This is what happens though when confronted with the real deal and they were not the first.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/feb/29/isis-kills-eight-dutch-members-for-desertion

[dontdamnmeuyi2015]

Until the world all comes together and shares info on the terrorist networks these attacks will continue.

I was watching CNN today and they were talking to a very smart Muslim American from California and he talked about how all Muslims need to unite against the radicals and their spread of hatred.

He spoke about how the world has to unite and fight these terrorists and not target one group with fear and hatred. He also said that these attacks are terrible to all the world, but the world needs to show more concern when Muslims are victims of these terrorists more than any other race of people.

I thought to myself how right he was. Usually if it's the US or one of it's biggest allies like France and Belgium the world's news reporters are all over it, but when Muslims are killed in African nations or Syria and Iraq the story is usually on page 20 of the newspaper and doesn't get the same coverage as other attacks. This shows that Muslim lives don't count but they do.

I honestly don't know what the answers are, but someone needs to do a better job of communicating and sharing info and really seriously make a plan that will get rid of ISIS and stop any other groups from thinking their hatred and terror is the way to go.

[Len Cnut]

44 minutes ago, PappyTron said:

No, but the underlying pinnings are there and it's in a Holy Book. It boils down to gradual psychological manipulation whereby ideas are implanted slowly to the point where the target person doesn't realise that their views are actually starting to change.

I suppose it goes back to your point about the power of religion in the equation.

[PappyTron]

47 minutes ago, Len B'stard said:

I suppose it goes back to your point about the power of religion in the equation.

Those that get turned are a bit like Glory Hunters, you know? Their team/life is not doing so well and this other mob comes along and they seem all glamourous, their fans/believers understand you and they can promise you all of the trophies/virgins that you want.

Basically, stay away from Chelsea fans.

[SoulMonster]

There is no doubt Europe has become safer. Especially compared to the 70s when IRA was a terror. Worrying with 2015 and 2016, though, hopefully it will end now.

Edited March 25, 2016 by SoulMonster

[SoulMonster]

So we live in a relativelly peaceful time here in Europe. To further put things in perspective, here are stats for the rest of the world for 2001-2014:

Not wanting to minimize the horror of what happened in Belgium, or argue that we shouldn't be worried, just trying to look at the grander picture and refuting those that claim things are worsening.

[st0n3r]

Again shooting between police and suspects. Planning to go out for a drink this evening. Hope people don't cancel.

[PappyTron]

6 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

So we live in a relativelly peaceful time here in Europe. To further put things in perspective, here are stats for the rest of the world for 2001-2014:

Not wanting to minimize the horror of what happened in Belgium, or argue that we shouldn't be worried, just trying to look at the grander picture and refuting those that claim things are worsening.

So, you wish to show that Europe isn't as bad as third world shit holes such as Somalia, the Sudan, Syria, Afghanistan or Iraq? What amazing times we live in!

Here's a thought; why don't you show us all of the crime rates in general, such as murders, robberies, and rapes for these countries and for those of say, the UK, the Netherlands, Germany, France, Norway etc, and then we can maybe discuss why people, such as those in this thread, may not feel that great about accepting millions of people from these places into their neighbourhoods.

[classicrawker]

U.S. Teen survived the Boston Marathon blast, He was at the finish line, and the Belgium Airport blast he was injured but will recover........And was in France, 2 hours away, during the Paris terrorist attack.............

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/mormon-teen-survived-terror-attacks-speaks-article-1.2577503