My lyrical analysis/interpretation of Catcher In The Rye

[Towelie]

This was originally discussed in Len Bastards thread about the anniversary of John Lennon's passing. Len had questioned whether Catcher In The Rye was really a tribute to John or just giving Mark Chapman a platform for fame and notoriety.

I always interpreted the song to be about Axl's feelings towards Chapman and referring to John's death as the loss of a cultural movement. "You took our innocence behind our stares" refers to the assassination of a musical hero, someone who represented an important counterculture movement for many people who grew up in the 60s/70s and his murder came as a cold, hard slap in the face. The line "sometimes the only thing we counted on when no-one else was there" refers to the music and how it was always "there" for us in our times of need etc.

The lyrics refer to a song that he can't play anymore but was once a source of comfort etc ("all at once the song I heard, no longer would it play, for anybody or anyone, that needed comfort... "). I can totally relate to that. Being the big MJ fangirl that I am, I used to get so much enjoyment from listening to his music, but following his death, there were certain songs or eras (particularly the early Jackson 5 stuff) that I just couldn't listen to anymore. I think Catcher In The Rye is about feeling robbed of enjoying John's art by Chapman (summed up in the line "what used to be's not there for me").

I think it's a beautiful sentiment, almost referring to music as a friend we once had a relationship with, but one that is now tainted or can never be enjoyed in the same way. There is a definite change in the way we listen to an artist's music post-death, particularly if you were a fan of that artist before their death. It becomes almost bittersweet listening to certain songs, certain lyrics become more poignant and their are some songs which are just utterly heartbreaking to listen to (I'm sure fellow Scott Weiland fans can relate to this experience in light of recent events).

Of course I could be talking a load of bollocks myself. But I like to think I know what I'm talking about. As with any song that has fairly abstract lyrics, its completely open to interpretation.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Towelie

[Jordan Rose]

Sorry I don't have time to reply properly but I think you've pretty much got it there.

Care to do Prostitute line by line cuz I still haven't a clue?

[Len Cnut]

Sorry I don't have time to reply properly but I think you've pretty much got it there.

Care to do Prostitute line by line cuz I still haven't a clue?

I'll give you a one line summation:

A load of fuckin' flannel written by an old poof. An old ginger poof. An old mincey little ginger poof with a benders mustache.

[Rovim]

Sorry I don't have time to reply properly but I think you've pretty much got it there.

Care to do Prostitute line by line cuz I still haven't a clue?

I'll give you a one line summation:

A load of fuckin' flannel written by an old poof. An old ginger poof. An old mincey little ginger poof with a benders mustache.

Your previous summation was more concise. I believe it was "Catcher in my fuckin' arse".

[Len Cnut]

To have a turn answering part of the question without being a rude cunt, when i listen to a tune and it's a good tune, for that 3 mins or what have you i ain't really thinking about the singers biography or how he lived his life or any of that, I'm just listening to the tune, bobbing my head, to me a good tune is a good tune is a good tune, I'm thinking the same thing when listening to Twist and Shout as I am listening to Nothing by NORE, I'm thinkin' 'this is a good tune', i don't really like...for as long as the songs going, as long as the bloke ain't a pedophile or something I'm pretty much just into the tune. I don't think Johns songs are at all coloured by the fact that he got shot, if i do think anything about the artist it's more about like, whatever the time the song was made at cuz y'know you have mental images in your head of them performing songs from videos and that, mostly thats it, i suppose we all see what we want to see out of things but when i listen to John Lennon songs i just think...y'know what, i don't think i think anything, thats the thing about music, it's sort of self involved thing, for the time a song or a solo or a piece of music is going on you're just into it, y'know, like the Jimi Hendrix cumface when he's bending strings

Perhaps you do think a bit about the passing. See someone like Kurt Cobain that kinda thing applies more too because he never really got a lot done in his life, in the sense that he only made 3 albums and then he was gone, there was so much to John and he was part of something so massive, both as an individual and as a part of that band of scousers that...he's not really defined by getting shot...i don't really much think about that. I suppose you linger on something based on a degree of intrigue or if there's something to figure out, and there ain't, just some dickhead with man-tits shot him cuz he was a sad lonely little Billy-No-Mates, there's magic in Johns life before that and that stuff is interesting, it draws you back, its compelling, there's nothing compelling about how he got gunned down in the streets.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Len B'stard

[DieselDaisy]

Never made it past the fact that the music resembles Coldplay or U2 in order to scrutinise the lyrical content more closely.

[Rovim]

To have a turn answering part of the question without being a rude cunt, when i listen to a tune and it's a good tune, for that 3 mins or what have you i ain't really thinking about the singers biography or how he lived his life or any of that, I'm just listening to the tune, bobbing my head, to me a good tune is a good tune is a good tune, I'm thinking the same thing when listening to Twist and Shout as I am listening to Nothing by NORE, I'm thinkin' 'this is a good tune', i don't really like...for as long as the songs going, as long as the bloke ain't a pedophile or something I'm pretty much just into the tune. I don't think Johns songs are at all coloured by the fact that he got shot, if i do think anything about the artist it's more about like, whatever the time the song was made at cuz y'know you have mental images in your head of them performing songs from videos and that, mostly thats it, i suppose we all see what we want to see out of things but when i listen to John Lennon songs i just think...y'know what, i don't think i think anything, thats the thing about music, it's sort of self involved thing, for the time a song or a solo or a piece of music is going on you're just into it, y'know, like the Jimi Hendrix cumface when he's bending strings

You either feel it or you don't. Catcher is the best song on Chinese imo. The melody, the emotion, the outro, the different point of views. I like the song, I like the sounds, I like the theme and I like the way Axl sees him. Feels genuine to me. And I like the piano as well.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Rovim

[Towelie]

To have a turn answering part of the question without being a rude cunt, when i listen to a tune and it's a good tune, for that 3 mins or what have you i ain't really thinking about the singers biography or how he lived his life or any of that, I'm just listening to the tune, bobbing my head, to me a good tune is a good tune is a good tune, I'm thinking the same thing when listening to Twist and Shout as I am listening to Nothing by NORE, I'm thinkin' 'this is a good tune', i don't really like...for as long as the songs going, as long as the bloke ain't a pedophile or something I'm pretty much just into the tune. I don't think Johns songs are at all coloured by the fact that he got shot, if i do think anything about the artist it's more about like, whatever the time the song was made at cuz y'know you have mental images in your head of them performing songs from videos and that, mostly thats it, i suppose we all see what we want to see out of things but when i listen to John Lennon songs i just think...y'know what, i don't think i think anything, thats the thing about music, it's sort of self involved thing, for the time a song or a solo or a piece of music is going on you're just into it, y'know, like the Jimi Hendrix cumface when he's bending strings

You either feel it or you don't. Catcher is the best song on Chinese imo. The melody, the emotion, the outro, the different point of views. I like the song, I like the sounds, I like the theme and I like the way Axl sees him. Feels genuine to me. And I like the piano as well.

I agree with you that Catcher is the best song on the album.

[Rovim]

Axl understood the value of John as a human being, as a musician. There is nothing wrong with Axl mourning the loss in a song. It's also just a part of what he's saying lyrically. Thinking about different aspects of it and what it means, and how important one person can be to a lot of people, among many other things.

It's a classic. I hope more people will discover this song and that Axl has at least a few more songs on that epic caliber that will see the light of day soon.

[DieselDaisy]

I do not think anyone is discovering that song, unless of course someone accidentally picks up Chinese Democracy, instead of their preferred option of Now 37, from their local pound shop.

[Len Cnut]

Axl understood the value of John as a human being, as a musician. There is nothing wrong with Axl mourning the loss in a song. It's also just a part of what he's saying lyrically. Thinking about different aspects of it and what it means, and how important one person can be to a lot of people, among many other things.

It's a classic. I hope more people will discover this song and that Axl has at least a few more songs on that epic caliber that will see the light of day soon.

Do me a fuckin' favour Hands down the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time!

[Rovim]

Axl understood the value of John as a human being, as a musician. There is nothing wrong with Axl mourning the loss in a song. It's also just a part of what he's saying lyrically. Thinking about different aspects of it and what it means, and how important one person can be to a lot of people, among many other things.

It's a classic. I hope more people will discover this song and that Axl has at least a few more songs on that epic caliber that will see the light of day soon.

Do me a fuckin' favour Hands down the most ridiculous thing I've read in a long time!

It's real. And I believe I'm on the right track like Billy Butler.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Rovim

[Len Cnut]

How would you know that? How would you even know your understanding of him is correct to be able to judge? How can any of us, it's a ridiculous statement to make How do you know whether every single thing you thought about John Lennon wasn't a total lie, how you know your estimation is accurate, how can you possibly judge something like that

What does that even mean, understood him as a human being, most people don't even understand themselves. Then again this is ginger bollocks we're talking about on mygnr, the beethoven of our times, him and his mate Del Dickens, between em they probably got the fuckin' answer to the meaning of life for people round here

[DieselDaisy]

Rovin is now up a bum. Shame really as I do not remember him being lodged up there so far in the past. Must have been all of those conversations with Wasted which turned him? Discussions like, ''Atlas Shrugged with Robert Denero on bass sounds like Tom Petty crossed with Van Morrison'', are going to mess with your reasoning.

[Rovim]

How would you know that? How would you even know your understanding of him is correct to be able to judge? How can any of us, it's a ridiculous statement to make How do you know whether every single thing you thought about John Lennon wasn't a total lie, how you know your estimation is accurate, how can you possibly judge something like that

What does that even mean, understood him as a human being, most people don't even understand themselves. Then again this is ginger bollocks we're talking about on mygnr, the beethoven of our times, him and his mate Del Dickens, between em they probably got the fuckin' answer to the meaning of life for people round here

It's all in my head man. I don't know shit. It's how I perceive him. I'm what you'd probably call an arrogant cunt, but there's no deep understanding. Still, John was special. His influence on many people was profound. His murder was fucked up, by the hands of a lunatic. I think Axl's lunacy paints a nice picture of the man, the insanity, the feeling we were left alone without a great musican that was the voice of a generation. I see nothing silly about it. Especially when the song itself works so well.

No one but Axl could have written that song. No one.

Edited December 12, 2015 by Rovim

[Len Cnut]

How would you know that? How would you even know your understanding of him is correct to be able to judge? How can any of us, it's a ridiculous statement to make How do you know whether every single thing you thought about John Lennon wasn't a total lie, how you know your estimation is accurate, how can you possibly judge something like that

What does that even mean, understood him as a human being, most people don't even understand themselves. Then again this is ginger bollocks we're talking about on mygnr, the beethoven of our times, him and his mate Del Dickens, between em they probably got the fuckin' answer to the meaning of life for people round here

No one but Axl could have written that song. No one.

Yeah, no shit, other than Elton and Bono, two of the premier grief tourists of popular music I'd agree with you there, only ginger bollocks could knock out such a steaming bag of shite.

[Towelie]

What MJ songs can you no longer listen to?

A lot of the early Motown and Jackson 5 stuff, especially ballads. I remember the morning after he died and turning on the telly and they were showing a clip of little MJ singing I'll Be There and I just had to turn it off. Those old Motown ballads just stab me straight in the heart.

[Len Cnut]

What MJ songs can you no longer listen to?

A lot of the early Motown and Jackson 5 stuff, especially ballads. I remember the morning after he died and turning on the telly and they were showing a clip of little MJ singing I'll Be There and I just had to turn it off. Those old Motown ballads just stab me straight in the heart.

Why those over and above all the others? Those are the ones i listen to most. I have a tendency to blast music in my car, i realised that this isn't always a good idea cuz certain songs make you look a bit of a fairy like that I Want You Back for instance!

Edited December 12, 2015 by Len B'stard

[Towelie]

How would you know that? How would you even know your understanding of him is correct to be able to judge? How can any of us, it's a ridiculous statement to make How do you know whether every single thing you thought about John Lennon wasn't a total lie, how you know your estimation is accurate, how can you possibly judge something like that

What does that even mean, understood him as a human being, most people don't even understand themselves. Then again this is ginger bollocks we're talking about on mygnr, the beethoven of our times, him and his mate Del Dickens, between em they probably got the fuckin' answer to the meaning of life for people round here

No one but Axl could have written that song. No one.

Yeah, no shit, other than Elton and Bono, two of the premier grief tourists of popular music I'd agree with you there, only ginger bollocks could knock out such a steaming bag of shite.

I swear sometimes you just like being contrary.

[Towelie]

What MJ songs can you no longer listen to?

A lot of the early Motown and Jackson 5 stuff, especially ballads. I remember the morning after he died and turning on the telly and they were showing a clip of little MJ singing I'll Be There and I just had to turn it off. Those old Motown ballads just stab me straight in the heart.

Why those over and above all the others? Those are the ones i listen to most. I have a tendency to blast music in my car, i realised that this isn't always a good idea cuz certain songs make you look a bit of a fairy like that I Want You Back for instance!

I dunno, maybe I'm just a big softy, but his voice was just pure soul back then and there was no showboating or manufactured innocence, it was genuine. The fact that this level of emotion came from a 10 year old just pierces me straight to my soul. There is something about his voice from 1969-1976 that just cannot be put into words. Some of the lesser known solo Motown stuff is just so magnificent, around the time he was doing One Day In Your Life (another song I can't listen to without an overwhelming desire to jump off the nearest cliff). That stuff to me is his best, but also his hardest to enjoy in light of the (albeit largely self-inflicted) tragedy his life went on to become.

[Babooshka]

I too agree about MJ, that Motown/J5 era is difficult to listen to.

I also have a hard time listening to Jeff Buckley. I was a huge fan, but have not listened to his stuff in years. I have to turn songs off when they come on, and actively avoid his music.

[RussTCB]

This was originally discussed in Len Bastards thread about the anniversary of John Lennon's passing. Len had questioned whether Catcher In The Rye was really a tribute to John or just giving Mark Chapman a platform for fame and notoriety.

I always interpreted the song to be about Axl's feelings towards Chapman and referring to John's death as the loss of a cultural movement. "You took our innocence behind our stares" refers to the assassination of a musical hero, someone who represented an important counterculture movement for many people who grew up in the 60s/70s and his murder came as a cold, hard slap in the face. The line "sometimes the only thing we counted on when no-one else was there" refers to the music and how it was always "there" for us in our times of need etc.

The lyrics refer to a song that he can't play anymore but was once a source of comfort etc ("all at once the song I heard, no longer would it play, for anybody or anyone, that needed comfort... "). I can totally relate to that. Being the big MJ fangirl that I am, I used to get so much enjoyment from listening to his music, but following his death, there were certain songs or eras (particularly the early Jackson 5 stuff) that I just couldn't listen to anymore. I think Catcher In The Rye is about feeling robbed of enjoying John's art by Chapman (summed up in the line "what used to be's not there for me").

I think it's a beautiful sentiment, almost referring to music as a friend we once had a relationship with, but one that is now tainted or can never be enjoyed in the same way. There is a definite change in the way we listen to an artist's music post-death, particularly if you were a fan of that artist before their death. It becomes almost bittersweet listening to certain songs, certain lyrics become more poignant and their are some songs which are just utterly heartbreaking to listen to (I'm sure fellow Scott Weiland fans can relate to this experience in light of recent events).

Of course I could be talking a load of bollocks myself. But I like to think I know what I'm talking about. As with any song that has fairly abstract lyrics, its completely open to interpretation.

A couple of things;

1) I've never paid close attention to the lyrics of CitR which is weird for me because I'm a big lyrics guy. Having said that, I swear I almost started a thread yesterday titled "Someone Explain CitR To Me", so it's crazy that you happened to start one anyway.

2) I hear ya on MJ except it's some of the later ballads that got me. It took me a full year to be able to hear Heal The World and Will You Be There again.

[wasted]

I would say it's less a tribute to Lennon and more dedicated or for Lennon. As the final outro lyrics are just criticizing Salinger for killing Lennon.

The most important line is a body took a body because the original song was when a body catches a body coming thru the rye. Salinger took that line and used it as a metaphor about the catcher who catches adolescence before it grows up. But Axl turned it back on Salinger and how A body took body/Lennon. You gave that boy a gun.

Lennon was a figure of hope and Salinger took our innocence/hope. Lennon was a figure who could offer hope to people who had nothing or no one else. Axl might see this kind of figure as important, maybe he was someone who helped him through his life.

Edited December 12, 2015 by wasted

[Słash]

Dang, so all this time I was thinking its Len Be Standard, but its Len Bastard.

[Rovim]

Yeah, no shit, other than Elton and Bono, two of the premier grief tourists of popular music I'd agree with you there, only ginger bollocks could knock out such a steaming bag of shite.

But you like Boy George. Perhaps you like Sting. Anything's possible if you like Boy George. Tell me: do you enjoy this steaming bag of shite?

Edited December 12, 2015 by Rovim