An Axl "epic" - what are they and why

[Apollo]

Since people now use the word 'epic' as a noun when describing types of Axl songs, I was curious what people's definition of an Axl Epic is.....and what songs fall into that catagory. 

I thought it was a pretty agreed upon list, but apparently I was way off base. 

These seemed like the obvious choices, based on subject matter, length and impact:

Coma

Estranged

Nobember Rain

Twat

Civil War

When people start adding songs like Prostitite and Madagascar to the list.......doesn't it start to delude or demean the impact of the word epic? 

Your thoughts. Your definition of epic. And what are Axl Epics. 

[gunsfanoldie]

I'm on a Bruce forum and this topic gets brought up a lot. He's got songs like Drive All Night, Backstreets, Jungleland, which are all in the 8-10 minute area and generally considered epics. But then there's also Racing In The Street thats 6 minutes but is also often referred to as "an epic". It'll get played in a slot during the concert where Bruce designates for "epics". The terms has never been completely defined, but there are just songs people fit and songs that don't.

So I couldn't begin to define it for you cause it varies. Length HAS to be a factor IMO because I took an Epic Genres course in college and the main thing about epic novels was length. It was certainly an element, so IMO the GNR epics are just what you said. November Rain, Coma, Estranged, I guess Civil War to an extent. For what its worth, TWAT would be the only song on Chinese I consider "epic" although I can understand why people would place Prostitute or Madagascar on that list. In a way, you could say Rocket Queen is an epic even though I don't agree with it. I don't know if you could extend it to any other song though.

[maynard]

The lack of epic songs on Chinese Democracy was a bummer for me. I expected at least 3 songs with 9+ minutes length. Not a fan of the basic pop rock structure and lenght of the songs.

Now UYI, all the long tracks I have no problem calling them 'epic'. They all showcase a high level of musicianship and creativity, without using, again, pop rock elements like hip hop beats (nothing wrong with electronic music but it doesn't fit Axl's style). From the UYI epics, there are two which I consider masterpieces, November Rain and Estranged. I think Axl did a great job with these two songs, it's almost like perfection to me.

Speaking of Madagascar, although it's far from an epic and has little to do with Axl's style, I enjoyed early versions of it, it could have been a great pop song.

[Apollo]

16 minutes ago, gunsfanoldie said:

I'm on a Bruce forum and this topic gets brought up a lot. He's got songs like Drive All Night, Backstreets, Jungleland, which are all in the 8-10 minute area and generally considered epics. But then there's also Racing In The Street thats 6 minutes but is also often referred to as "an epic". It'll get played in a slot during the concert where Bruce designates for "epics". The terms has never been completely defined, but there are just songs people fit and songs that don't.

So I couldn't begin to define it for you cause it varies. Length HAS to be a factor IMO because I took an Epic Genres course in college and the main thing about epic novels was length. It was certainly an element, so IMO the GNR epics are just what you said. November Rain, Coma, Estranged, I guess Civil War to an extent. For what its worth, TWAT would be the only song on Chinese I consider "epic" although I can understand why people would place Prostitute or Madagascar on that list. In a way, you could say Rocket Queen is an epic even though I don't agree with it. I don't know if you could extend it to any other song though.

Great post and explanation. 

Length is important. But also impact. So a shorter song could be considered epic, IMO, if it also had strong subject matter and impact. That's why I would say Prostitte and Madagascar have no business even being considered. Prostitite is a fairly standard ballad, cheesy lyrics and made absolutely no impact on the music world. Pretty much the same with Madagascar. 

So naming those as Axl Epics would really be lowering the standards of what the term really means. 

[Silent Jay]

Does ac/dc have epic songs?

[gunsfanoldie]

Just now, Apollo said:

Great post and explanation. 

Length is important. But also impact. So a shorter song could be considered epic, IMO, if it also had strong subject matter and impact. That's why I would say Prostitte and Madagascar have no business even being considered. Prostitite is a fairly standard ballad, cheesy lyrics and made absolutely no impact on the music world. Pretty much the same with Madagascar. 

So naming those as Axl Epics would really be lowering the standards of what the term really means. 

Personally I agree with you. I just get how Madagascar's whole "atmosphere" can make people think its epic. And I'm not ruler to say its not. But I get why if people were hard pressed to find one, they'd say that instead of Catcher In The Rye. Kind of similar with Prostitute too, but that ones harder to define. I can see why people think the outro makes it "epic", I can see how the whole song is kind of vague enough and long enough that people consider it "epic". Again, its in the eye of the beholder. And personally, the only epics I can think of are November Rain, Coma, and Estranged. Thats it. The rest are maybes, and then there are ones that just aren't.

You're right that impact is important. My point is I was specifically taught that "epic" had to do with length, at least as its related to novels and writing. It might not translate to songs, and I might not agree because as I said Bruce's Racing In The Street isn't "long" but I do consider it an epic. I'm just saying what I was taught was length was crucial in defining something "epic". Iron Maiden's Rime Of The Ancient Mariner, Rush's 2112. Both obviously epic and length is a major reason why.

[DIST]

November rain hands down. 

+ it has the greatest solo ever written. 

[Len Cnut]

I'd LOVE to answer this question, absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE to but I promised the mods I'd be a good little boy so i won't but uh, read my mind eh boys and girls?   Apollo, what am i thinking boss?

Serious answer, suitably emotive subject matter, little tinkley piano intro, good set up verse, maybe a mini solo to begin with, another verse, little breakdown section, another verse, an absolute BASTARD of a solo, another verse, guitar solo belted out whilst Axl goes mental with the vocal then close.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Len B'stard

[Lies They Tell]

Stuff like these always divide people. There's no clear, objective and concrete definition of the word epic. It means a little different things to everybody. I guess most people would agree that an epic song has to be at least over 4 minutes long. If the song has lyrics I suppose it should deal with something a little deeper than just a nice booty or something. Also I don't think epic songs are ever fast paced. They're usually slow or mid tempo songs. Often these songs start slow and turn into something grand and heavy.

Personally I disagree completely with the thought that a song should have some kind of an impact on the music world to be considered epic. To me that's not what epic means. Even if nobody would ever have cared about November Rain, I would still consider it epic, because it SOUNDS epic. It's the instrumentation that makes it epic. Movies have often epic music in my opinion, for example Inception. The whole soundtrack of that movie is epic. Not because of the impact it made on the music industry, but because it just sounds massive.

So I completely understand why people call Madagascar epic. The lyrics deal with deep matters. Isolation, hatred, forgiveness, righteousness, justice etc... And the guitar solo combined with Martin Luther King's speech just screams of epicness. And I'm not even a big fan of the song. But I recognize that the song is pretty monumental in size. Not because of it's length, but because it just builds into a massive wall of sound.

I'm not sure if I'd call Prostitute epic. It's not as grand as Madagascar is. But I do understand if some people call it epic. It starts slowly and builds into a hard hitting song. Like fire and ice. Also Coma is a song that I'm not sure if I'd call epic, even though it's one of my favorite songs ever. I mean it's very long, but length alone isn't enough to make a song epic IMO. Instrumentally it just doesn't build up into anything massive. Coma is a bit trippy and experimental, but I'm not sure if I'd call it epic. Then again I completely understand if some do.

Edited February 23, 2016 by Lies They Tell

[Rovim]

1 hour ago, Len B'stard said:

1 hour ago, Len B'stard said:

I'd LOVE to answer this question, absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE to but I promised the mods I'd be a good little boy so i won't but uh, read my mind eh boys and girls?   Apollo, what am i thinking boss?

Serious answer, suitably emotive subject matter, little tinkley piano intro, good set up verse, maybe a mini solo to begin with, another verse, little breakdown section, another verse, an absolute BASTARD of a solo, another verse, guitar solo belted out whilst Axl goes mental with the vocal then close.

I'd LOVE to answer this question, absolutely LOVE LOVE LOVE to but I promised the mods I'd be a good little boy so i won't but uh, read my mind eh boys and girls?   Apollo, what am i thinking boss?

Serious answer, suitably emotive subject matter, little tinkley piano intro, good set up verse, maybe a mini solo to begin with, another verse, little breakdown section, another verse, an absolute BASTARD of a solo, another verse, guitar solo belted out whilst Axl goes mental with the vocal then close.

So... in other words, Gn'R, like any band that wrote and recorded epic songs, had their own way of making it epic. Just because they achieved epic in the same way, with each member bringing their signature vibe and using the same approach doesn't make it less epic surely?

Do you like epic tunes, and if you do, what are they? do they somehow follow a magical recipe or some shit? like if it was a different structure and way of singing for example for each epic tune, it's more epic?

 

 

Edited February 23, 2016 by Rovim

[Len Cnut]

1 minute ago, Rovim said:

So... in other words 

 

 

In other words they followed the same sodding formula bands have been shagging since the days of Led Zeppelin.

i was tryna be nice there, look what you made me do

[Rovim]

Just now, Len B'stard said:

In other words they followed the same sodding formula bands have been shagging since the days of Led Zeppelin.

i was tryna be nice there, look what you made me do

Oh... you mean a retro band's tunes were retro? the epic shit too? Bro... you already know this shit. They did not reinvent the wheel here.

Appetite followed formulas. UYI as well. But it had it's own personality. The tunes I mean. So how can you really say for example, that November Rain and it's outro weren't epic as fuck? and Estranged? I don't think being original or an innovator is a part of the definition of "epic".

It's epic. It's epic as fuck. And these are the tunes:

November Rain, Estranged, Civil War, There Was A Time, Coma.

Locomotive on the verge.

 

[sonofnazareth]

1 hour ago, Silent Jay said:

Does ac/dc have epic songs?

Listen to Powerage.

[Lies They Tell]

If you search for "epic music" on youtube, this is the kind of music you'll find: 

None of the songs on that playlist have had much impact on the music industry. But I bet most people would agree that it sounds epic. I think usually people talk about something big, dramatic and grandiose when they talk about epic music. Not necessary anything that has had an impact on the music world. That's why nobody calls for example Welcome To The Jungle epic. It's just legendary and a classic. Also epic music often has some kind of an orchestra in the background.

[EvH]

Madagascar is an epic. Civil War is not.

[SoulMonster]

4 hours ago, Apollo said:

Since people now use the word 'epic' as a noun when describing types of Axl songs, I was curious what people's definition of an Axl Epic is.....and what songs fall into that catagory. 

I thought it was a pretty agreed upon list, but apparently I was way off base. 

These seemed like the obvious choices, based on subject matter, length and impact:

Coma

Estranged

Nobember Rain

Twat

Civil War

When people start adding songs like Prostitite and Madagascar to the list.......doesn't it start to delude or demean the impact of the word epic? 

Your thoughts. Your definition of epic. And what are Axl Epics. 

My def? A piano-based song over 8 minutes that makes me yawn until some cool solos kick in.

[Apollo]

4 hours ago, EvH said:

Madagascar is an epic. Civil War is not.

Why?

Civil War was definitely a step in a more mature writing direction for GnR. And I've seen it mentioned numerous times by various people as being one of GnR's best or most underrated songs. 

Besides GnR fan forums, I don't think I've ever heard anybody even mention Madagascar. 

Having spoken words in the middle of a song don't make it "epic."

I would love to hear your reasoning. 

[EvH]

Sure.

 

- I find it quite interesting that you and some other posters are seemingly mistaking epic for having anything to do with either the inherent quality of  song (which is entirely subjective) or its public recognition or significance. I think it doesn't. I'd like to think that your remark about the  devaluation of the idea of an epic if applied to a song like Madagascar has nothing to do with the usual rejection of anything CD related.

 

- To me, an epic is a song that has dynamics, and as Lies they Tell wrote in his great post above, has to set a mood. An epic is grand, it's larger than life, if you will. I don't think Civil War does that. It's a great rock song, no doubt,  but it sounds pretty straightforward to me.

 

- An Axl epic features self centered/introspective (as you will) lyrics: Estranged, Nov Rain, TWAT, and indeed, Madagascar for instance. I guess you talk about the political/social theme of Civil War when you mention a more mature songwriting for Guns -and I agree. But that's not what I'm thinking about when I'm thinking of an epic.

 

- Your remark about the spoken words is interesting considering both songs feature some. The Cold Hand Luke quote at the beginning of Civil War is iconic (so much that it was used again ), but I think the quotes are more efficient in setting a mood in Madagascar. 

 

[wasted]

Epic doesn't mean just long in my opinion. It has to be kind of over the top emotionally or musically. Singing about something serious in a grand ir heroic way. 

I suppose I use Axl epics to refer to songs like Nov Rain, Estranged, Breakdown. It's this epic tone that Axl seems to bring.

So on CD songs like SOD, TWAT, Catcher, Madagascar, TIL, Prostitute have a grand seriousness even though they aren't excessively long. 

Maybe this trait is present in other GNR songs which are more gritty. Like Rocket Queen, Civil War, One in a Million, even Paradise City. Like Axl's vocal outro on Rocket takes the song into epic territory. Even on OIAM there's the ending that makes it seem so much deeper and poignant. 

But on CD everything is so much more elevated and pomp like Queen which heightens the epic feel of everything. So even songs like If the World seem pretty epic and have this panoramic soundtrack vibe. A love song as the world ends is very dramatic/romantic.

Of course has written songs like Dead Horse and Shotgun blues which aren't as grand, so to differentiate you might use Axl epics. You might just say piano ballads, although might not encompass all the songs. 

[Silent Jay]

Ballad Of Death was kinda epic moment at the show i've been.