British Politics

[SoulMonster]

17 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Mark my words. May 23rd. Alternative fur Deutschland; Die Linke; 5 Star Movement; Le Pen's National Rally; Farage's Brexit Party; the Finns, etc etc.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/eu-election-polls-european-parliament-salvini-orban-conservatives-a8876011.html

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-eu-election/pro-eu-alliance-heads-for-majority-but-eurosceptic-vote-to-rise-eu-election-survey-idUKKCN1RU0SI

So what you are saying is that as part of the election on May 23, the composition of the electorate in the EU will change in such ways that the union will become different (less open to immigration, etc) -- and yet you say this organization is undemocratic?  

This is what happens in all democracies, they change as the political trends change. New politicians gets in power, new policies are enacted. Democracy. It isn't the end, it isn't even the beginning of the end, it is just the natural course of action of democracy manifested.

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

You seriously believe there will be a dismantling of the EU from within because of this? That because a bunch of mainly anti-immigration politicians get slightly more power (from 10 to 14%) it will be the D-day of the EU? You are not able to see this is more of a wet dream than rational thought? 

Eurosceptism can only proliferate year-by-year the longer the horrendous organisation exists. It is going to be difficult for the Commission to pass legislation the more Eurosceptic the Parliament. The Eurozone is surely destined to collapse first. The Five Star Movement want a referendum on the Euro.

I keep seeing this nonsense about ''reforming it from the inside, not abandoning it but changing it''. How? Please somebody explain how this could occur? The EU Parliament has no legislative initiative. You cannot therefore conceivably express your democratic mandate through EU Parliamentary elections, then through your representative MEP and out through - what we call in Britain - a Private Members Bill. It is constitutionally impossible! And there is no cabinet government to speak of. 

And the European Council is effectively ran by Angela Merkel. The British, Poles and Scandinavians tended to adopt an anti-federalist (''Eurorealist'') stance in juxtaposition to German federalism however this had little influence and Britain and Poland would usually be outvoted. 

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Eurosceptism can only proliferate year-by-year the longer the horrendous organisation exists. It is going to be difficult for the Commission to pass legislation the more Eurosceptic the Parliament. The Eurozone is surely destined to collapse first. The Five Star Movement want a referendum on the Euro.

I keep seeing this nonsense about ''reforming it from the inside, not abandoning it but changing it''. How? Please somebody explain how this could occur? The EU Parliament has no legislative initiative. You cannot therefore conceivably express your democratic mandate through EU Parliamentary elections, then through your representative MEP and out through - what we call in Britain - a Private Members Bill. It is constitutionally impossible! And there is no cabinet government to speak of. 

You don't see the paradox of claiming that the EU will be changed as the result of the euro-skeptic politicians getting more electoral power yet cannot grasp how the same democratic process can lead to politician enacting changes that help fix problems with the organization? No? What is it called when people are so blinded by their own antipathies that they have lost the ability to think clearly?

[soon]

 

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

You don't see the paradox of claiming that the EU will be changed as the result of the euro-skeptic politicians getting more electoral power yet cannot grasp how the same democratic process can lead to politician enacting changes that help fix problems with the organization? No? What is it called when people are so blinded by their own antipathies that they have lost the ability to think clearly?

I have never denied that the EU has a democratic aspect (and that that democracy is expressed in Parliament) but it is certainly a rather stunted form of democracy which cannot legislate but merely ratify/veto legislation formed by an unelected Commission. I see you have never answered my query about how critics of the current EU could reform the EU by staying in when this is constitutionally impossible?

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I have never denied that the EU has a democratic aspect (and that that democracy is expressed in Parliament) but it is certainly a rather stunted form of democracy which cannot legislate but merely ratify/veto legislation formed by an unelected Commission. I see you have never answered my query about how critics of the current EU could reform the EU by staying in when this is constitutionally impossible?

By the same exact process you believe the growth of the euro-skeptic block can somehow start the dismantling of the EU 

Edited May 2, 2019 by SoulMonster

[soon]

[DieselDaisy]

13 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

By the same exact process you believe the growth of the euro-skeptic block can somehow start the dismantling of the EU 

I believe the EU is doomed for multiple reasons.

Still not getting an answer on how, by staying in, you can reform the EU, am I?

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I believe the EU is doomed for multiple reasons.

Still not getting an answer on how, by staying in, you can reform the EU, am I?

What part of "through the same process that you think the EU can be dismantled as the result of the 23 May election" is it that you don't understand?

Furthermore, the EU isn't fixed in any form, it has gone through numerous changes over the last decades. So yeah. 

[DieselDaisy]

5 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

What part of "through the same process that you think the EU can be dismantled as the result of the 23 May election" is it that you don't understand?

Furthermore, the EU isn't fixed in any form, it has gone through numerous changes over the last decades. So yeah. 

So ''yeah'' what? The one consistent trajectory of the European Union is towards greater federalism, greater bureaucracy and neoliberal economics. There is little room for anyone who does not believe in those three aspects of the EU.

I would love it if one of you Euro types would analyse the EU Constitution in close detail and try and defend it. I did intensive research on the subject recently, yet not one of you will approach that argument as it is basically indefensible. The EU Constitution is an utter - to quote the Americans - shit sandwich. No wonder Junker is drunk all of the time. I'd be drunk all of the time if I worked for the European Union!

Edited May 2, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[DieselDaisy]

On 4/16/2019 at 4:50 PM, DieselDaisy said:

I have been going over the constitution of the EU in some detail and am forced to conclude you couldn't design a more unwieldy constitution if you tried. A grande total of (drum roll) seven major decision making bodies. An elected 751 member legislature (European Parliament) without any legislative initiative (i.e., the ability to propose laws); legislative initiative located instead in an executive (European Commission) made up of un-elected civic servants, the European Council offering general ''direction'' (without being infact a legislature).

Seven Presidents! Seven bloody Presidents!

It is a utter mess!

There are three bodies with both ''Council'' and ''European/Europe'' in the title (if you include the non-EU Council of Europe). There is the European Council which consists of the 28 heads of state/governments and Tusk. The Council of the European Union which is the legislative upper-house, and the aforementioned non-EU council. Why didn't they use ''senate'', ''chamber'' or ''house'' to vary the nomenclature up a bit, make it less confusing?

Further, there is no fixed abode. The European Parliament for instance possesses three permanent localities, involving a mass million Euro relocation operation of MEPs between three different cities, Brussels, Strasbourg and Luxembourg. The other institutes seem to have shifted around a bit also.

 

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

So ''yeah'' what? The one consistent trajectory of the European Union is towards greater federalism, greater bureaucracy and neoliberal economics. There is little room for anyone who does not believe in those three aspects of the EU.

Yet a little while ago you were giddy about the prospect of the election on May 23 resulting in exactly what you now claim is impossible 

[EvanG]

Also, I’m not going to turn a blind eye to all the benefits of the EU just because there is need for improvement. It’s probably not a coincidence a lot of Eurosceptics haven’t travelled a lot.

[DieselDaisy]

16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Yet a little while ago you were giddy about the prospect of the election on May 23 resulting in exactly what you now claim is impossible 

When are you going to answer my question on how a country can conceivably reform the EU in preference to exiting the EU? 

Thank you in advance for your answer. 

PS

Your opinion on the EU Constitution is also welcome.

Edited May 2, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[janrichmond]

I ain't voting today.

[DieselDaisy]

34 minutes ago, EvanG said:

Also, I’m not going to turn a blind eye to all the benefits of the EU just because there is need for improvement. It’s probably not a coincidence a lot of Eurosceptics haven’t travelled a lot.

Probably because they're all broke! The EU is a project for city based middle class high flyers. Why should people in northern English towns (or you might just as easily say, eastern German towns who are turning to AfD, or young people in the south of Italy and Greece who are unemployed, etc) vote for the EU? The EU has not benefited them in anyway, and infact they'd argue it has been immensely detrimental to their standard of living. They do not go swanning around the globe on gap year/Erasmus numbers. They haven't got any money.

[EvanG]

I'm quite poor, yet I get around.

[DieselDaisy]

Quite hard if you are unemployed I imagine and there is mass unemployment in Greece and Italy for instance. 

[SoulMonster]

30 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

When are you going to answer my question on how a country can conceivably reform the EU in preference to exiting the EU?

Through the exact same process that you believe the outcome of the May 23 election will change the EU in ways you desire  How can you not grasp this concept? How can you not realize that if a democratic process within the EU can start the dismantling of the EU, then a democratic process can also lead to its improvement? I really don't see how I can simplify this any more. 

Your efforts in this discussion has been unusually awkward. You claim the EU isn't democratic. Then you contradict this by gleefully predicting that the EU democratic elections on May 23 will lead to its demise. Then you contradict this by claiming democratic processes within the EU can't be transformative. And all the while you refuse to acknowledge me pointing out your bumbling and nonsensical posts and you keep refusing to accept an answer because you would very much prefer a more detailed answer that would only serve as a starting point for you to go on about whatever you are so eager to go on about. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

Through the exact same process that you believe the outcome of the May 23 election will change the EU in ways you desire  How can you not grasp this concept? How can you not realize that if a democratic process within the EU can start the dismantling of the EU, then a democratic process can also lead to its improvement? I really don't see how I can simplify this any more. 

Your efforts in this discussion has been unusually awkward. You claim the EU isn't democratic. Then you contradict this by gleefully predicting that the EU democratic elections on May 23 will lead to its demise. Then you contradict this by claiming democratic processes within the EU can't be transformative. And all the while you refuse to acknowledge me pointing out your bumbling and nonsensical posts and you keep refusing to accept an answer because you would very much prefer a more detailed answer that would only serve as a starting point for you to go on about whatever you are so eager to go on about. 

I'd argue the return of Eurosceptic parties are a symptom of its demise.

Soft-Eurosceptic/Eurorealist MEPs, e.g. among ACRE, GUE/NGL, etc., cannot conceivably implement reform through the legislative process which inherently leads to hard-Euroscepticism which simply advocates withdrawal. 

[EvanG]

It doesn't cost much to travel these days. You can fly to many European cities for less than 50 euros if you look for bargains online. You can book cheap city trips to most European cities for less than 100 euros if you don't care for fancy hotels. That might still be a lot of money for some people, but it's not what it used to be. If I can get around cheap, anyone can.  

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, EvanG said:

It doesn't cost much to travel these days. You can fly to many European cities for less than 50 euros if you look for bargains online. You can book cheap city trips to most European cities for less than 100 euros if you don't care for fancy hotels. That might still be a lot of money for some people, but it's not what it used to be. If I can get around cheap, anyone can.  

Everything you say is correct but If you're unemployed and your economy is buggered - Greece has just emerged from recession - you rather need that money for clothes, food and (house) rent.

 

[EvanG]

I can't speak for anyone's financial situation, if you are on welfare I can understand that 100 euros for a weekend trip to another country is out of the question, but even lower class is able to get around for very little money nowadays, that's all I'm saying. 

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I can't speak for anyone's financial situation, if you are on welfare I can understand that 100 euros for a weekend trip to another country is out of the question, but even lower class is able to get around for very little money nowadays, that's all I'm saying. 

And then you'll probably be more inclined to the EU as you'd be making use of one of the ''four freedoms'' but if you are on the dole in Greece, and the EU hammered your country with austerity budgets, then there is no conceivable reason why you would support the EU. I was in Crete a couple of years ago and they didn't have a good word to say about the EU. 

It is what it is. If somebody punches you in the face for no reason you hardly should be expected to befriend them.

PS

Unemployment,

Edited May 2, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[EvanG]

I can understand someone being Eurosceptic if you have been affected more by the cons than the pros of the EU. Although some blame the EU for everything. The populists in the UK were doing an excellent job with that and a lot of people who knew nothing or very little about the EU believed them. I have been affected more by the pros, so I'm not going to be a Eurosceptic obviously. But I know it's not perfect, just like any politics aren't perfect, but it's a process and you hope they improve and get it right next time.