British Politics

[EvanG]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I am unapologetic about focusing on the countries which have not ''flourished and benefited'' such as the Greeks and Italians. If the EU functioned in accordance with its abstract ideology - ''solidarity, cooperation, togetherness'' - these countries would be benefiting also, not sunk in debt and unemployment.

 

Hahaha... when I was typing my post I actually wanted to type ''you're probably going to mention Greece now'' in there. Nonetheless, my point still stands.

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I am unapologetic about focusing on the countries which have not ''flourished and benefited'' such as the Greeks and Italians. If the EU functioned in accordance with its abstract ideology - ''solidarity, cooperation, togetherness'' - these countries would be benefiting also, not sunk in debt and unemployment.

Thinking error: These countries could have been worse off without the EU.

Thinking error: Even if the EU aims for solidarity, cooperation and togetherness , that doesn't mean that every member state can't fuck up their own economy.

Basically, just flawed thinking and erroneous arguments.

[Dazey]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I am unapologetic about focusing on the countries which have not ''flourished and benefited'' such as the Greeks and Italians. If the EU functioned in accordance with its abstract ideology - ''solidarity, cooperation, togetherness'' - these countries would be benefiting also, not sunk in debt and unemployment.

I love the way you wibble on about debt and unemployment in other countries whilst supporting a course of action most likely to bring debt and unemployment to the UK. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, Dazey said:

I love the way you wibble on about debt and unemployment in other countries whilst supporting a course of action most likely to bring debt and unemployment to the UK. 

I am glad you said ''most likely''.

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Thinking error: Even if the EU aims for solidarity, cooperation and togetherness , that doesn't mean that every member state can't fuck up their own economy.

Do you think that it is right that West Germany subsidises an equally ailing economy as East Germany, whilst hammering the Greeks? Where is this ''togetherness'' now?

[DieselDaisy]

7 minutes ago, EvanG said:

Hahaha... when I was typing my post I actually wanted to type ''you're probably going to mention Greece now'' in there. Nonetheless, my point still stands.

It stands in the sense that, I am a rich person who is benefiting from the EU and don't give a shit about the poor person who is being hammered by the EU sense. Neoliberal smugness basically, which the EU was founded on. 

PS

But again, we are discussing economics again because nobody here has thought to educate themselves on the rest of the EU - the amount Soul puts into his posts of utter gibberish! It would make sense if the EU was just a trading block but it is also a legislative and legal body with appointed leaders!

Edited August 29, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[EvanG]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

It stands in the sense that, I am a rich person who is benefiting from the EU and don't give a shit about the poor person who is being hammered by the EU sense. Neoliberal smugness basically, which the EU was founded on. 

Quite the opposite. I am far from rich nor have I seen many benefits from the EU personally. I have been to countries that have benefitted greatly from the EU, though, that is why I don't ignore that, unlike you.

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, EvanG said:

Quite the opposite. I am far from rich nor have I seen many benefits from the EU personally. I have been to countries that have benefitted greatly from the EU, though, that is why I don't ignore that, unlike you.

Have you not been to any countries where the EU is incredibly unpopular and detrimental? 

[EvanG]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Have you not been to any countries where the EU is incredibly unpopular and detrimental? 

I have never been to Greece. I have been to Poland before and after they joined the EU (in 2004) and I've seen the advantages of the EU with my own eyes.

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, EvanG said:

I have never been to Greece. I have been to Poland before and after they joined the EU (in 2004) and I've seen the advantages of the EU with my own eyes.

They hate the EU on Crete, at least from my experience, but I suspect it is similar on the mainland. 

[Padme]

20 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I am unapologetic about focusing on the countries which have not ''flourished and benefited'' such as the Greeks and Italians. 

Did you know that millions of Italians and Greeks used to migrate to America seeking a better life there? They haven't done that for the last 45 or 50 years. I guess that means those countries are better off now despite serious problems they might still need to fix. Ireland, another great example of  being better off now. No country is the world is problem free. Still Itally, Ireland or Greece have seen great progress in recent decades

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, Padme said:

Did you know that millions of Italians and Greeks used to migrate to America seeking a better life there? They haven't done that for the last 45 or 50 years. I guess that means those countries are better off now despite serious problems they might still need to fix. Ireland, another great example of  being better off now. No country is the world is problem free. Still Itally, Ireland or Greece have seen great progress in recent decades

Haha. You people are literally completely blind to what the EU is to a country like Greece!! It is a bit like the people on the GN'R board who defend Axl Rose.

I think that has as much to do with changes to US Immigration Laws as anything else. The US passed a series of Immigration Acts (1882/1917/1924) which brought to an end the great waves of immigration to the United States.

Edited August 29, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[EvanG]

8 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

They hate the EU on Crete, at least from my experience, but I suspect it is similar on the mainland. 

And I'm not saying they are incorrect, again, the EU needs to improve, but my point is that I'm not going to ignore all the good things the EU has done just because there are also lots of flaws. And that is the big difference between a pro-EU and yourself.

Edited August 29, 2019 by EvanG

[SoulMonster]

26 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Do you think that it is right that West Germany subsidises an equally ailing economy as East Germany, whilst hammering the Greeks? Where is this ''togetherness'' now?

West Germany? East Germany? Perhaps time to move on to books on modern history? 

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, EvanG said:

And I'm not saying they are incorrect, again, the EU needs to improve, but my point is that I'm not going to ignore all the good things the EU has done just because there are also lots of flaws. And that is the big difference between a pro-EU and yourself.

The best thing one can say about the EU is there is some good ideas in there but they have been engulfed by a bureaucratic giant. If the EU confided itself to merely a single market, that is the free movement of goods, people, cash, services, I'm not sure there would be such a thing as a sizable Eurosceptic movement. 

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

West Germany? East Germany? Perhaps time to move on to books on modern history? 

I don't follow. They're thoroughly appropriate terms. 

[EvanG]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

merely a single market

Tell that to a lot of Eastern European countries.

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

I don't follow. They're thoroughly appropriate terms. 

In other words, you asked me if I think it is okay the one country (Germany) decides to spend some of its money on particular domestic regions that need it? Err, yes?  I think anything else would be irresponsible. 

[Padme]

5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Haha. You people are literally completely blind to what the EU is to a country like Greece!! It is a bit like the people on the GN'R board who defend Axl Rose.

I think that has as much to do with changes to US Immigration Laws as anything else. The US passed a series of Immigration Acts (1882/1917/1924) which brought to an end the great waves of immigration to the United States.

I tell you what they done to countries like Greece. The EU spent huges amount of money in infrastructure. Not to mention the big amoun of trade with other EU countries. Car factories are operating there and a lot of turist spend summer time there. Greece used to be a third world country, just like Ireland, Italy or Spain used to be. The EU helped them. Today those countries are far from being Mexico or Venezuela. They don't have to migrate to America

[Dazey]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

In other words, you asked me if I think it is okay the one country (Germany) decides to spend some of its money on particular domestic regions that need it? Err, yes?  I think anything else would be irresponsible. 

Next he’ll be moaning about London having to spend money on the north east.  

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, EvanG said:

Tell that to a lot of Eastern European countries.

Quite sizable Euroscepticism in those countries, even in government (Orban in Hungary, Duda in Poland). I notice that the Czechs are doing the ''inflationary dodge'' which keeps them out of the Eurozone also. 

 

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

In other words, you asked me if I think it is okay the one country (Germany) decides to spend some of its money on particular domestic regions that need it? Err, yes?  I think anything else would be irresponsible. 

''Solidarity, cooperation, togetherness''.

2 minutes ago, Padme said:

I tell you what they done to countries like Greece. The EU spent huges amount of money in infrastructure. Not to mention the big amoun of trade with other EU countries. Car factories are operating there and a lot of turist spend summer time there. Greece used to be a third world country, just like Ireland, Italy or Spain used to be. The EU helped them. Today those countries are far from being Mexico or Venezuela. They don't have to migrate to America

You are utterly blind. Greece is in reality suffering from rampant (youth) unemployment and debt. If you were to visit Greece and speak to the Greek people you would see that the EU is deeply unpopular. 

[Padme]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

''Solidarity, cooperation, togetherness''.

You are utterly blind. Greece is in reality suffering from rampant (youth) unemployment and debt. If you were to visit Greece and speak to the Greek people you would see that the EU is deeply unpopular. 

You are blind. Despite their problems. They don't want to leave the EU. Ask them why they don't want to. Creta is just a very small island. It doesn't represent every single person in Greece

[SoulMonster]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

''Solidarity, cooperation, togetherness''.

So you actually, honestly, for real, think that EU member states are supposed to have a shared economy where domestic budget surplus should be channeled to whatever state needs it most? Wow. Just wow.  It's like you don't understand the most elementary aspects of the EU.

EU states still have their own economy. It is not shared. The markets are open and single, but budgets are individual. Each country can make mistakes and fuck up (Greece) or do good (Denmark in the last credit crunch). The togetherness and solidarity means extended obligations of others to help out (but not necessarily without austerity demands) and the effects of shared markets and free movement. But not to the extent that the EU states have merged to become one nation 

[DieselDaisy]

8 minutes ago, Padme said:

You are blind. Despite their problems. They don't want to leave the EU. Ask them why they don't want to. Creta is just a very small island. It doesn't represent every single person in Greece

My gawd!! They are probably more Eurosceptic than Britain haha! Even the EU itself acknowledges that Greece is one of the most Eurosceptic of countries. You are utterly blinkered. I don't usually quote wikipedia but the sources are cited,

Quote

 

According to the London School of Economics, Greece is the 2nd most Eurosceptic country in the European Union, with 50% (only behind UK) of the Greeks thinking that their country has not benefited at all from the EU. Meanwhile, 33% of the Greeks views Greek membership in EU as a good thing, marginally ahead of UK. 81% of the Greeks say that the EU is going in the wrong direction. These figures represent a major increase in Euroscepticism in Greece since 2009.

In June 2012, the Eurosceptic parties in Greece that were represented in the parliament before the Election in January 2015 (ANEL, Golden Dawn, KKE) got 45.8% of the votes and 40.3% of the seats in the parliament. In the legislative election of January 2015 the pro-European (left and right-wing) parties (ND, PASOK,Potami, KIDISO, EK and Prasinoi-DIMAR) got 43.28% of the votes. The Eurosceptic parties got 54.64%. The Eurosceptic left (KKE, ANTARSYA-MARS and KKE (M–L)/M–L KKE) got 42.58% of the votes and the Eurosceptic right (Golden Dawn, ANEL and LAOS) got 12.06% of the votes, with Syriza ahead with 36.34%. The Eurosceptic parties got 194 seats in the new parliament and the pro-EU parties got 106 seats.[99]

According to the polls conducted in June and July 2015 (12 polls), the Eurosceptic left would get on average 48.03% (excluding extraparliamentary parties as ANTARSYA-MARS and KKE (m–l)/ML-KKE), the parliamentary pro-EU parties (Potami, New Democracy and PASOK) would get 33.82%, the extra-parliamentary (not represented in the Hellenic Parliament) pro-EU parties (KIDISO and EK) would get 4.44% and the Eurosceptic right would get 10.2% (excluding extraparliamentary parties, such as LAOS, not displayed on recent opinion polls). The soft Eurosceptic parties would get 42.31%, the hard Eurosceptic parties (including KKE, ANEL and Golden Dawn) would get 15.85%, and the pro-EU parties (including extra-parliamentary parties displayed on opinion polls) would get 38.27% of the votes.

In the European Parliament election, 2014, Syriza won the election with 26.58% of the vote (a swing of 21.88%) taking 6 seats (up 5), with Golden Dawn coming 3rd taking 3 seats, the Communist Party taking 2 seats and the Independent Greeks gaining their first ever seat. Syriza's leader Tsipras said he's not anti-European and does not want to leave the euro. According to The Economist, Tsipras is willing to negotiate with Greece's European partners, and it is believed a Syriza victory could encourage radical leftist parties across Europe. Alexis Tsipras vowed to reverse many of the austerity measures adopted by Greece since a series of bailouts began in 2010, at odds with the Eurogroup's positions.[100][101] The government coalition in Greece was composed by Syriza and ANEL (right-wing hard Eurosceptic party, led by Panos Kammenos, who is the current Minister of Defence).

In the European Parliament election, 2019, the New Democracy movement, beat the ruling left-wing Syriza formation with 33.12% and 23.76% of the vote respectively, maintaining Syriza's 6 seats and prompting the Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras to call a legislative election on 7 July 2019. In this election, which was won by ND, the pro-European parties (ND, SYRIZA, KINAL, MeRA25, and the extra-parliamentary Union of Centrists and Recreate Greece) got 84.9% of the vote and the Eurosceptic parties (KKE, Greek Solution, the extraparliamentary Golden Dawn and a host of other small mainly left-wing parties) got 15.1%. That drastic change in the balance is mostly the result of SYRIZA abandoning Euroscepticism.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euroscepticism

 

Edited August 29, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[SoulMonster]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

''Solidarity, cooperation, togetherness''.

You are utterly blind. Greece is in reality suffering from rampant (youth) unemployment and debt. If you were to visit Greece and speak to the Greek people you would see that the EU is deeply unpopular. 

More thinking errors. The fact that Greece is having economic problems doesn't prove that the EU on average is good for European countries, or that Greece wouldn't have been in deeper shit. This is the same thinking error from before. Do you not get it? Or don't you have a working argument so you revert to one that is flawed hoping that people won't care?

And whether EU is popular or not is also a thinking error. That is irrelevant to whether they would be worse off without.

[Padme]

12 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Next he’ll be moaning about London having to spend money on the north east.  

Will London have enough money to spend elsewhere? They might not have enough money for themselves. All thanks to Boris