British Politics

[soon]

4 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

There was no such thing as Hong Kong before the British - well, a few thousand Tanka fisherman.

Neither was there such thing as Canada, where I live, before the British. Such is the nature of colonialism. So much damage caused in the name of that colonial dream. And now some of you want to be alone in the world. Will wonders never cease?

[SoulMonster]

3 minutes ago, soon said:

Neither was there such thing as Canada, where I live, before the British. Such is the nature of colonialism. So much damage caused in the name of that colonial dream. And now some of you want to be alone in the world. Will wonders never cease?

I suppose Diesel is only in favor of colonialism when they are the colonists and not the, uhm, colonees  

[Basic_GnR_Fan]

38 minutes ago, soon said:

Prolly karma for colonizing my friends and Hong Kong and half the world. And the slave trade.  

Karma, interesting. I thought immigration into the West was supposed to be a blessing (ie "diversity is a strength' tagline and all that). Now you're implying it is a punishment. Very interesting choice of words. 

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, soon said:

Neither was there such thing as Canada, where I live, before the British. Such is the nature of colonialism. So much damage caused in the name of that colonial dream. And now some of you want to be alone in the world. Will wonders never cease?

That is untrue. Hong Kong Island was virtually uninhabited when the British obtained possession of it at Nanking. The population of Canada at the dawn of European colonization (NB., this really entails the Portuguese and Spanish more than the British) was between 200,000 and 2,000,000. These had already been decimated by epidemics and war so that by the time the British obtained possession of Canada at the Treaty of Paris 1763, the indigenous population stood at circa 15-18,000. 

The ancestors of the Chinese in Hong Kong today fled to (British) Hong Kong voluntarily, as economic migrants and/or as refugees from the mainland's civil wars. In other words colonization preceded Hong Kong, not vice versa, Hong Kong preceding colonization. Singapore is another example of this.

[soon]

19 minutes ago, soon said:

Neither was there such thing as Canada, where I live, before the British. 

 

3 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

That is untrue.

No, it is true.

[DieselDaisy]

29 minutes ago, soon said:

And now some of you want to be alone in the world. Will wonders never cease?

I don't believe many people desiring to withdraw from the EU are advocating a British form of Sakoku haha.

9 minutes ago, soon said:

 

No, it is true.

Sorry, I was replying to your analogy between Canada and Hong Kong.

Edited August 28, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[soon]

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

I don't believe many people desiring to withdraw from the EU are advocating a British form of Sakoku haha.

Sakoku - I learn something from you every day.

1 minute ago, DieselDaisy said:

Sorry, I was replying to your analogy between Canada and Hong Kong.

Your argument against that analogy is based on population size (and lacks scale of population per sqkm). As if that somehow justifies colonization.

And as if the Brits hadnt fully contributed to decimating the population of indigenous people before the treaty of Paris was signed. Like they just stumbled into the opportunity to crete a new State?

 

 

[DieselDaisy]

24 minutes ago, soon said:

Your argument against that analogy is based on population size (and lacks scale of population per sqkm). As if that somehow justifies colonization.

When you use the words ''Hong Kong'' it does conjures up an idea of a city with a mass population of predominantly Cantonese speakers and not a rocky island with a few fishermen, but by all means the colonisation of Hong Kong was bad but not for the reasons you mentioned. It is ironic you bring up Hong Kong actually in light of the protesters' usage of the Union Flag; to them it is a symbol of their special status and representative democracy.

24 minutes ago, soon said:

And as if the Brits hadnt fully contributed to decimating the population of indigenous people before the treaty of Paris was signed.

The population of Canada was between 200,000 and 2,000,000 before Europeans (i.e., the Spanish and Portuguese basically, Columbus era, 1592-). The population was around 18,000 when the British took Canada from the French in 1763. You'll have to work this one out for yourself I'm afraid...

Granted you are probably partially right in that economic settlers from the (British) thirteen colonies were encroaching into French Canada up the St Lawrence, as they were westward, but I believe when you chuck the numbers and chronology around you'll hit three other European nations before you hit the British, who were anyhow poor colonists until the mid-18th century. 

24 minutes ago, soon said:

Sakoku - I learn something from you every day.

You mentioned, ''and now some of you want to be alone in the world. Will wonders never cease?''. Where is this even proposed, and how is it even possible? 

Edited August 28, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[soon]

9 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

When you use the words ''Hong Kong'' it does conjures up an idea of a city with a mass population of predominantly Cantonese speakers and not a rocky island with a few fishermen, but by all means the colonisation of Hong Kong was bad but not for the reasons you mentioned. It is ironic you bring up Hong Kong actually in light of the protesters' usage of the Union Flag; to them it is a symbol of their special status and representative democracy.

The union jack is equally a symbol of the culpability Britain holds in the current unrest.

10 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

The population of Canada was between 200,000 and 2,000,000

These numbers are contested. 

10 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You'll have to work this one out for yourself I'm afraid...

No! 

[DieselDaisy]

 

1 minute ago, soon said:

These numbers are contested. 

I believe they are sufficiently wide enough to inherently incorporate the fact they are contested haha. It is rather a given.

2 minutes ago, soon said:

The union jack is equally a symbol of the culpability Britain holds in the current unrest.

You cannot really blame Britain for mainland policy twenty plus years after the handover haha. I am conceding you can blame Britain for a lot in the world today but I believe this one is outside our orbit somehow. 

[soon]

20 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I believe they are sufficiently wide enough to inherently incorporate the fact they are contested haha. It is rather a given.

haha! But the maximum I mean. 

20 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

You cannot really blame Britain for mainland policy twenty plus years after the handover haha.

You sure can. For the destabilization caused by colonization and a "handover." Also the deal that they reached for that "handover" obviously had dire implications for any semblance of democratic-or-judicial-representation's long term status in Hong Kong.

Edited August 28, 2019 by soon

[DieselDaisy]

7 minutes ago, soon said:

haha! But the maximum I mean. 

You sure can. For the destabilization caused by colonization and a "handover." Also the deal that they reached for that "handover" obviously had dire implications for any semblance of democratic-or-judicial-representation's long term status in Hong Kong.

We didn't destabilize anything as there was nothing there to destabilize in the first place!! Taking to its logical extreme you then get into a causal circle beloved of historians. Shirer - great that he is - in his great tome linked the rise of Nazism in the 1920s-30s to Martin Luther and the Thirty Years' War in the 16th and 17th centuries!

[soon]

12 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

We didn't destabilize anything as there was nothing there to destabilize in the first place!! 

Your exit, of course, is what holds culpability for the current unrest. As does the terms of the "handover."

And yes there was something to destabilize - the aforementioned people who lived there pre colonization.

[DieselDaisy]

Just now, soon said:

Your exit, of course, is what holds culpability for the current unrest. As does the terms of the "handover."

And yes there was something to destabilize - the aforementioned people who lived there pre colonization.

Twenty-two years separates the handover from the current protests. It is rather like blaming Ole Beich for Chinese Democracy.

[AtariLegend]

Various members of ERG have said themselves since Boris became pm, that they still wouldn't vote for the deal if the backstop was gone. It's nonscene to still be talking about this.

There will be a border eventually. The idea of some silly border with magical tech that hasn't been invented will deal with customs far from the border while the uk right will be okay with people around the world going to Ireland, then crossing into NI and being able to cross into England without a passport is beyond farcial.

Boris could't give a fuck about NI and the DUP want a wall, they just don't want to be seen as being responsible for it.

Edited August 28, 2019 by AtariLegend

[Dazey]

2 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Twenty-two years separates the handover from the current protests. It is rather like blaming Ole Beich for Chinese Democracy.

Or the current EU for the death of the Northumberland fishing industry.  

[DieselDaisy]

15 minutes ago, Dazey said:

Or the current EU for the death of the Northumberland fishing industry.  

Not really. The fishing industry is (alive) just, which gives every reason for removing the CFP.

[soon]

24 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Twenty-two years separates the handover from the current protests. It is rather like blaming Ole Beich for Chinese Democracy.

In fact the agreement between Britain and China to "handover" Hong Kong extends beyond 22 years. The joint declaration guarantees "Hong Kong’s way of life and high degree of autonomy until 2047."

Some background:

“I believe the UK government has legal, moral and political responsibility to come out and say the right thing. It is not just the Chinese government humiliating the people of Hong Kong but it is that Xi Jinping is humiliating the UK government.”

Joshua Wong, the umbrella movement protest leader, insisted the joint declaration “absolutely is a legally binding document” and that its implementation needed to be monitored closely by the international community.

The Foreign Office also rejected China’s statement about the joint declaration, a deal which guaranteed Hong Kong’s way of life and high degree of autonomy until 2047. “The [declaration] remains as valid today as it did when it was signed over 30 years ago,” a spokesperson said on Friday.

However, Wong, who is one of the leaders of the Demosisto party, accused the British government of not doing enough to challenge China’s attempt to undermine the historic pre-handover agreement.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/01/china-humiliating-uk-hong-kong-handover-deal

 

[Padme]

There is a Rebel Alliance now. Brexit has turned into Star Wars 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/28/cross-party-rebel-alliance-gears-up-for-brexit-clash-with-johnson

[DieselDaisy]

Dazey, Even your argument which essentially goes, ''because it was a long time ago they bummed us up the arse and because they now slip us a fiver we should ignore the fact they bummed-us up the arse'', doesn't work as the CFP is still a thoroughly active policy.

8 minutes ago, soon said:

In fact the agreement between Britain and China to "handover" Hong Kong extends beyond 22 years. The joint declaration guarantees "Hong Kong’s way of life and high degree of autonomy until 2047."

Some background:

“I believe the UK government has legal, moral and political responsibility to come out and say the right thing. It is not just the Chinese government humiliating the people of Hong Kong but it is that Xi Jinping is humiliating the UK government.”

Joshua Wong, the umbrella movement protest leader, insisted the joint declaration “absolutely is a legally binding document” and that its implementation needed to be monitored closely by the international community.

The Foreign Office also rejected China’s statement about the joint declaration, a deal which guaranteed Hong Kong’s way of life and high degree of autonomy until 2047. “The [declaration] remains as valid today as it did when it was signed over 30 years ago,” a spokesperson said on Friday.

However, Wong, who is one of the leaders of the Demosisto party, accused the British government of not doing enough to challenge China’s attempt to undermine the historic pre-handover agreement.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jul/01/china-humiliating-uk-hong-kong-handover-deal

 

I am quite sure if we did do anything of consequence you'd be the first to scream ''neocolonialism'' given your evident biases. We are rather damned if we do, damned if we don't as the saying goes in this incident: damned for not intervening in 2019, damned for decolonizing in 1997.  

But in answer to the above, a swift analyse of the United Kingdom's military-eco capabilities vis-à-vis China's, pertaining to Realpolitik, is worthwhile. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[soon]

6 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I am quite sure if we did do anything of consequence you'd be the first to scream ''neocolonialism'' given your evident biases. We are rather damned if we do, damned if we don't as the saying goes in this incident: damned for not intervening in 2019, damned for decolonizing in 1997

Sound like you are conceding the point that Britains withdrawal was so poorly structured that Britain holds culpability for todays unrest in Hong Kong.

Edited August 28, 2019 by soon

[DieselDaisy]

15 minutes ago, Padme said:

There is a Rebel Alliance now. Brexit has turned into Star Wars 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/aug/28/cross-party-rebel-alliance-gears-up-for-brexit-clash-with-johnson

The Alliance of Anti-democrats. Indeed Sturgeon has not just one but two, I repeat ''two'' referenda that she ignores/repudiates.

- She has as the cockney would say, ''previous''. 

8 minutes ago, soon said:

Sound like you are conceding the point that Britains withdrawal was so poorly constructed that Britain holds culpability for todays unrest in Hong Kong.

I am not saying that at all. The Anglo-Sino agreement espoused ''one country, two systems''. So long as the Chinese mainland focuses on the letter and spirit of the ''two systems'' part, Hong Kong runs smoothly. 

Edited August 28, 2019 by DieselDaisy

[soon]

Just now, DieselDaisy said:

I am not saying that at all. The Anglo-Sino agreement espoused ''one country, two systems''. So long as the Chinese mainland focuses on the letter and spirit of the ''two systems'' part, Hong Kong runs smoothly. 

You are acknowledging that Britain's terms had not teeth. And continue to have no teeth. Meaning its all bull shit. They took no responsibility for a safe an equitable "handover." This is one way that Britons exit holds culpability for the current unrest in Hong Kong.

11 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

I am quite sure if we did do anything of consequence you'd be the first to scream ''neocolonialism''

I would not refer to the terms of a document written within the context of colonialism as being "neo-colonial." 

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, soon said:

You are acknowledging that Britain's terms had not teeth. And continue to have no teeth. Meaning its all bull shit. They took no responsibility for a safe an equitable "handover." This is one way that Britons exit holds culpability for the current unrest in Hong Kong.

I would not refer to the terms of a document written within the context of colonialism as being "neo-colonial." 

So you - a strident anti (British) imperialist, who has blamed Britain for just about everything pertaining to European colonialism - are actually saying that we should not have handed over Hong Kong in 1997? Is that what you're saying because I need some clarity here?

[DieselDaisy]

Another remainer flaw being their ignorance of historic-ideological nomenclature. Thus,

- fascist

- Nazi

- dictator

- coup

are being tossed around like confetti by lots of upper middle class white southerners outside Westminster as I speak.

I think I might actually drink (for the first time in a few weeks), a celebratory drink - I have a few beers in the fridge. I possess a bad case of, schadenfreude.