DieselDaisy Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 29 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: Where does this thing of society paying for it come from anyway, I've had to take out a loan Time machine back to the 1970s should do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 19 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: And again, I am talking about the situation here in Norway where the humanities attract all the guys who just don't want to take a proper job so they go to paid-for universities instead, choosing on purpose the easiest courses. In a set-up where people pay out of their own pocket then I couldn't give two shits about what they study. Originally, philosphers tried to figure out everything. But then it turned out that were really poor at many of these things, because you have to know the fundamentals to be innovative in your thinking and you have to be able to test your hypotheses to actually advance our knowledge, so that job was out-sourced to specialists with actual skills beyond just having a massive brain -- aka scientists. Now philosphers are left to ponder those things that fall outside of science, which is any subject that can't be explored using the scientific method of testing hypotheses. And there are not really many such subjects left. You mention the nature of morality. Nope, that subject is being grabbed by biologists now. The nature of knowledge. Sure. But you don't need a university degree to ponder epistemology, or rather, you can't fill up a whole university degree on that very narrow interest. Ethics? That's just applied morality. There are some others, too, though, but not enough to justify taking university degrees in it. So we don't need philosphers, at least not anyone with university degrees in it. And we especially don't need to pay someone to study to become philosophers. That's throwing money down a hole. What we need is common everyday thinkers who share their thoughts and create discussions. Those who refer to themselves as philosophers are no better than them, although they want to appear that way with their "fancy" title and university degrees. How do you feel about contemporary philosophers in general, as in the post war guys? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: How do you feel about contemporary philosophers in general, as in the post war guys? Pretentious twats? A waste of time and space, and with all their lofty prattle, a fucking load of oxygen? I can't think of any contemporary philosopher who has brought anything of value to society. I could have as meaningful and insightful conversations with my garbage man as anyone with a university degree in philosophy. Don't get me wrong, I love thinking, pondering, reflection, coming up with ideas, discourse, etc, and it is vital for the progression of society. I just don't see that graduates in philosphy are the motive force behind this, rather normal experts on their fields who are vocal about their thoughts on how their subjects affect society. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: Pretentious twats? A waste of time and space, and with all their lofty prattle, a fucking load of oxygen? I can't think of any contemporary philosopher who has brought anything of value to society. I could have as meaningful and insightful conversations with my garbage man as anyone with a university degree in philosophy. Don't get me wrong, I love thinking, pondering, reflection, coming up with ideas, discourse, etc, and it is vital for the progression of society. I just don't see that graduates in philosphy are the motive force behind this, rather normal experts on their fields who are vocal about their thoughts on how their subjects affect society. You seem like a man zealously taken by your own pursuits, more power to ya. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 Just now, Oldest Goat said: You're implying that a garbage man couldn't be insightful, that's rather pretentious. I was, I am sorry. I was short on time and took a silly shortcut. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said: Britain does not exactly subsidise its students these days haha. Trust me - the reverse happens. I suppose one upshot of crippling student debt is you have to be really into your subject to do it. Finished paying off my student loan a while ago because I studied a subject that led to a proper job. Edited August 25, 2017 by Dazey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 Just now, Oldest Goat said: No worries So apologies to you if you are a garbage man. On the upside, I wouldn't mind philosophizing with you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 Just now, Oldest Goat said: Challenge accepted. The least insightful must become a garbage man. No, he must have to enroll at university studying philosophy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 1 hour ago, Len Cnut said: Where does this thing of society paying for it come from anyway, I've had to take out a loan Move to Scotland . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 11 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said: P.S. I keep getting notifications of so and so reacted to your post, but have no idea how to check it? Yes, this is annoying as fuck, between that and all our genders being removed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
action Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) i consider myself a "philosopher" in that i like to think about stuff like the meaning of life and the universe. in stead of taking society as it is, i'm always thinking about why and why not. all very insightful and interesting. however, while i do all this thinking, i'm not really contributing anything to the world. the world is spinning regardless. see, i'm doing it again. people with a spade in their hands, they are the ones making a difference. not lazy pretentious thinkers like me. who's going to mow the grass, dig out the weeds, make a stew, clean the house in the meantime? my wife would rather have a hard worker than a thinker, that's for sure Edited August 25, 2017 by action Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 2 hours ago, Dazey said: Finished paying off my student loan a while ago because I studied a subject that led to a proper job. Pity you have reduced academic/self improvement to a mere business transaction. How much your life would be enriched otherwise. But regardless, if you want to proceed up that line many cabinet ministers/prime ministers studied humanities and I imagine they are paid a lot more than you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 21 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Pity you have reduced academic/self improvement to a mere business transaction. How much your life would be enriched otherwise. But regardless, if you want to proceed up that line many cabinet ministers/prime ministers studied humanities and I imagine they are paid a lot more than you. I would think the average wage from a technical/scientific education is much higher than the average wage from an humanities education. I also see noe reason why anyone who have studied hard sciences have less of a rich life than those who have studied soft sciences. What an arrogant thing to say Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) 14 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: I would think the average wage from a technical/scientific education is much higher than the average wage from an humanities education. I also see noe reason why anyone who have studied hard sciences have less of a rich life than those who have studied soft sciences. What an arrogant thing to say Arrogance would be your specialty. I am not especially interested in a ''my wage is better than your wage'' playground silliness. I suspect many people have learned humanities and had very successful lives and vice versa with the tedious subjects What I mean is, Dazey sees Schwarzenegger films as 'high cinema' and Guns N' Roses as the 'apex of music'. Perhaps a good dose of humanities, Bill Shakes and the pantaloons, might have broadened his horizons and enriched his cultural palette. Edited August 25, 2017 by DieselDaisy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 16 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: Arrogance would be your specialty. I am not especially interested in a ''my wage is better than your wage'' playground silliness. There is absolutely no reason to say that one education (hard or soft science) gives you more happiness than another (unless you become a dentist that is). As long as you do something you like, chances are you will enjoy yourself throughout the studies. And regardless of what you actually study, you can still enjoy other things as hobbies and get that "richer cultural palette" you bemoan. Jeez, you make it sound like people who have studied something technical are bores with no interesting hobbies and dull, plebian lives. They enjoy "high culture", classical literature, the arts, etc, just like anyone else. Again, that ignorance and arrogance. So I don't buy the notion that studying something, especially something scientific or technical, akes your life dull and you a bore. That is subject-centrism at its ugliest. Or maybe even some kind of defense for oneself having chosen something pointless to study. "Well, I won't get a relevant job, I will never be able to buy my own home, but at least it made me a refined human being!". Fuck off with that nonsense Whatever you study doesn't define you in that way, it's the combination of all your hobbies and interests that do, and your education typically only lasts for a few years of your life. So study what you want and fill up with interesting extracurricular hobbies and your life will be good. And if you want economic security and a relevant job, stay clear of most humanities studies, and instead get an education in something technical. But whatever you do, and this is important, don't be a fucking philosopher. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselDaisy Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 I'm sure philosophy is as valid as any subject, and the people pursuing it are as keen as anyone studying a subject; I'm also sure that a few have had successful professions. It isn't my subject personally - although I had to touch on it when I did classics at university - but it has to be more interesting than mathematics and dullheaded sciences by very definition. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 Quote They enjoy "high culture", classical literature, the arts, etc Just don't study the fucker eh? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 18 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: I'm sure philosophy is as valid as any subject, and the people pursuing it are as keen as anyone studying a subject; I'm also sure that a few have had successful professions. It isn't my subject personally - although I had to touch on it when I did classics at university - but it has to be more interesting than mathematics and dullheaded sciences by very definition. I'll take science and engineering over poncing around in coffee shops in elbow patches any day of the week. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 9 minutes ago, Len Cnut said: Just don't study the fucker eh? If you pay for it yourself, then by all means do. Just don't expect me to pay for your "self-development" and hobbies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 25 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said: I'm sure philosophy is as valid as any subject, and the people pursuing it are as keen as anyone studying a subject; I'm also sure that a few have had successful professions. It isn't my subject personally - although I had to touch on it when I did classics at university - but it has to be more interesting than mathematics and dullheaded sciences by very definition. Of course it is valid. Otherwise it wouldn't be offered. It is as valid as any other stupid subject you can take at universities. And I am sure quite many who study philosophy are keen on it, too. Otherwise they wouldn't start, would they? It is not like someone is pointing a gun to their head telling them to study philosophy or that society gives them money to take it because, oh, we are so lacking in pretentious philosophers who can turn the economy around. And it is not like the subject has a lot going for it., either, so they have to be interested to get into it. Or maybe they just thought it meant you get to give monies to charities or something. And some students of philosophy may indeed have a successful profession in it (as philosophy teachers at colleges and universities so the nonsense never ends), but that would be the very small minority. But hey, whatever leads you to serve me that cold beer in an extra refined manner. What is "interesting" is entirely subjective, and hence this discussion now took a turn into what is entirely beyond you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Len Cnut Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 6 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: If you pay for it yourself, then by all means do. Just don't expect me to pay for your "self-development" and hobbies. I wont, dont worry, I imagine the charm school eats into your bank balance enough as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 As someone who works at the interface between the physical and social sciences and has spent his entire time studying resisting the pressure to "just pick one or the other", seeing these debates rumble on as they always have done is kinda depressing. There is tremendous value to be found in both, at least in my field of volcanology, neither can really exist without the other. We need good physical volcanology to understand everything we can about volcanic processes, we need good 'applied' or 'social' volcanology because if we cannot find ways to frame, communicate and act upon the understanding gained through the physical science, then it's a worthless endeavour, volcanoes will go on killing people in preventable ways as they have for as long as we have shared a planet with them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted August 25, 2017 Author Share Posted August 25, 2017 2 minutes ago, Graeme said: As someone who works at the interface between the physical and social sciences and has spent his entire time studying resisting the pressure to "just pick one or the other", seeing these debates rumble on as they always have done is kinda depressing. There is tremendous value to be found in both, at least in my field of volcanology, neither can really exist without the other. We need good physical volcanology to understand everything we can about volcanic processes, we need good 'applied' or 'social' volcanology because if we cannot find ways to frame, communicate and act upon the understanding gained through the physical science, then it's a worthless endeavour, volcanoes will go on killing people in preventable ways as they have for as long as we have shared a planet with them That reminds me of climate studies where scientists have a problem communicating what is happening to the public and politicians so that reaction to climate change is reasonably scaled to the possible danger. In general, scientists are not exactly skilled at communicating to the lay person. This is one of the biggest problems I see with science today, because it creates a divide between science and the public who should benefit from the research. Scientists ends up misunderstood and nebulous while the public ends up not fully informed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Graeme Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 13 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: That reminds me of climate studies where scientists have a problem communicating what is happening to the public and politicians so that reaction to climate change is reasonably scaled to the possible danger. In general, scientists are not exactly skilled at communicating to the lay person. This is one of the biggest problems I see with science today, because it creates a divide between science and the public who should benefit from the research. Scientists ends up misunderstood and nebulous while the public ends up not fully informed. Well, that's partly why you end up with attitudes like the quote in your signature. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted August 25, 2017 Share Posted August 25, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, Graeme said: Well, that's partly why you end up with attitudes like the quote in your signature. The quote in his signature was from somebody who is regularly "molested" at airports. Airports have planes. Planes mean science. QED Edited August 25, 2017 by Dazey 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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