Immortality, why we can't have it yet kinda do

[DieselDaisy]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Is your argument that without religion we wouldn't have had great art and architecture?

No one is denying that religion hasn't been important to people through ages, and naturally it has inspired many great works of art. But we also know great art and arhcitecure can be inspired by other things than religion. You argument that if it werern't for Christianity we wouldn't have had anything beautiful in Europe is ridiculous. We would. Maybe fantastic mosques, maybe impressive synagogues. Maybe music dedicated to Mohammed. Maybe buildings to another religion that is now extant. Maybe buildings dedicated to royality. Who knows? But there certainly wouldn't be vaccuum, it would just be different beautiful things.

Straw man. See above.

[SoulMonster]

17 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Straw man. See above.

No, when you claim that Christianity isn't bollocks because it has created wonderful things, then it isn't a straw man argument to point out that even in the absence of Christanity we would have had beautiful things and that this is obvious from the fact that humans have created beautiful things in non-Christian societies. It sort of is the natural response to your "only in Christianity"-argument.

It is not Christianity, or any other religion, that makes us a creative, artistic and innovative species. That is human nature. We are born that way. Kids create before they even have the intellectual ability to think about stuff like religion. But Christianity, like any other religion, can certainly be an inspiration, a muse, for that creativity. But so can about anything else. That is why humans, regardless of what society it has existed in, has created things, wonderful things. And that is why we, even as society become secularized, still continue to create wonderful art and architecture. We don't need religion to inspire us. And if we hadn't had Christianity - or any other religion - I see no reason to think our creativity would someone have been shut down and everything would have been dull and boring. That is inane.

You like pointing to the architectural style of communism as some sort of evidence that without religion everything would be bland. But communism isn't the alternative to religion. And -- and I am not condoning communism here -- while the architechure may have been bland because communist leaders didn't believe in beautifying public spaces and because it was a horrible society that imposed regulations on art, people living in communist countries, even communists themselves, were still creative and produced great works of art. Like humans always will when they have the opportunity.

So stop putting Christianity on some weird pedestal. It is humans we should cherish, and our fantastic creativity, not the follies of our irrational minds.

Edited August 27, 2017 by SoulMonster

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

No, when you claim that Christianity isn't bollocks because it has created wonderful things, then it isn't a straw man argument to point out that even in the absence of Christanity we would have had beautiful things and that this is obvious from the fact that humans have created beautiful things in non-Christian societies. It sort of is the natural response to your "only in Christianity"-argument.

It is not Christianity, or any other religion, that makes us a creative, artistic and innovative species. That is human nature. We are born that way. Kids create before they even have the intellectual ability to think about stuff like religion. But Christianity, like any other religion, can certainly be an inspiration, a muse, for that creativity. But so can about anything else. That is why humans, regardless of what society it has existed in, has created things, wonderful things. And that is why we, even as society become secularized, still continue to create wonderful art and architecture. We don't need religion to inspire us. And if we hadn't had Christianity - or any other religion - I see no reason to think our creativity would someone have been shut down and everything would have been dull and boring. That is inane.

You like pointing to the architectural style of communism as some sort of evidence that without religion everything would be bland. But communism isn't the alternative to religion. And -- and I am not condoning communism here -- while the architechure may have been bland because communist leaders didn't believe in beautifying public spaces, people living in communist countries, even communists themselves, were still creative and produced great works of art. Like humans always will when they have the opportunity.

So stop putting Christianity on some weird pedestal. It is humans we should cherish, and our fantastic creativity, not the follies of our irrational minds.

Still a straw man argument I'm afraid haha. As somebody who is obsessed enough with the classics to have gone on grande tour I hardly think I'd prioritise the Christian over other civilisations. You are going to have to do better than this if you want an argument today, coming up with stuff I apparently 'said' that I didn't in fact say.

[SoulMonster]

5 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

Still a straw man argument I'm afraid haha. As somebody who is obsessed enough with the classics to have gone on grande tour I hardly think I'd prioritise the Christian over other civilisations. You are going to have to do better than this if you want an argument today, coming up with stuff I apparently 'said' that I didn't in fact say.

Here's what you said: "Well, if it is bollocks it is a bollocks which established some of the greatest architecture, music and arts, as well as creating institutes of learning in which academia could flourish, instigating textual scrutiny, propagating a European langua franca (Latin) and still being immensely important today"

This implies you refuse to admit that Christianity is bollocks because, in your words, it established great things. I am pointing out that we would have had great things also without Christianity, as evidenced by great things popping up wherever we are, and hence your argument falls apart.

So Christianity is bollocks. We would have had great things either way. It is just another intellectual cul-de-sac that we are best off without.

[DieselDaisy]

4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Here's what you said: "Well, if it is bollocks it is a bollocks which established some of the greatest architecture, music and arts, as well as creating institutes of learning in which academia could flourish, instigating textual scrutiny, propagating a European langua franca (Latin) and still being immensely important today"

This implies you refuse to admit that Christianity is bollocks because, in your words, it established great things. I am pointing out that we would have had great things also without Christianity, as evidenced by great things popping up wherever we are, and hence your argument falls apart.

So Christianity is bollocks. We would have had great things either way. It is just another intellectual cul-de-sac that we are best off without.

As I said, I took Dazey's attack on religion as a given that Catholicism was the primary target, knowing the measure of the man, and I did not imply as to the exclusivity of every other civilisation. I could quite easily switch a few words and make that apply to pre-Christian Europe or the Han dynasty in fact.

 

[SoulMonster]

41 minutes ago, DieselDaisy said:

As I said, I took Dazey's attack on religion as a given that Catholicism was the primary target, knowing the measure of the man, and I did not imply as to the exclusivity of every other civilisation. I could quite easily switch a few words and make that apply to pre-Christian Europe or the Han dynasty in fact.

And as I have pointed out, religion and spirituality is just one of many inspirations for human creativity.

[SoulMonster]

You simply cannot excuse a repressive, intolerant and degenerative social system because it served as an inspiration for great art. The system can still be bollocks. Otherwise we'd have to excuse Nazism, too. But we don't. Awesome third reich art doesn't excuse the inhumanity and racism of the nazis. Just like beautiful churches and painting doesn't mean Christianity isn't bollocks.

 

3 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

Dat's some Silence of the Lambs shit right thurr.

I am quite happy someone actually reads my longwinded musings

I couldn't see the video, though, something about my browser not recognizing the format.Stupid Youtube. Or stupid browser. Or more likely, stupid me.

Edited August 27, 2017 by SoulMonster

[spunko12345]

On 26/8/2017 at 9:01 AM, Len Cnut said:

I dont think he was being literal.

I think SoulMonster might be autistic.

[SoulMonster]

34 minutes ago, spunko12345 said:

I think SoulMonster might be autistic.

No one thought Diesel was being literal in his ramblings, I hope, but it would be good to know who he was actually trying to insult hence the question.

[soon]

Side note:  Its unfortunate to observe two people disagreeing about Christianity, when it seems both are mistaking institutions and cultures professing Christianity for Christianity itself.  No where did Jesus say: govern with an iron fist of guilt, shame, homogeny and greed whilst building fancy structures (no where does he even say to govern and in fact rejected an offer to receive political and military power).  Constantine yesterday and Trump today; they are liars.  Choosing to accept that Christianity is represented in the actions of Empire distorts reality.

 

[SoulMonster]

5 minutes ago, soon said:

Side note:  Its unfortunate to observe two people disagreeing about Christianity, when it seems both are mistaking institutions and cultures professing Christianity for Christianity itself.  No where did Jesus say: govern with an iron fist of guilt, shame, homogeny and greed whilst building fancy structures (no where does he even say to govern and in fact rejected an offer to receive political and military power).  Constantine yesterday and Trump today; they are liars.  Choosing to accept that Christianity is represented in the actions of Empire distorts reality.

 

I think both Diesel and I have been talking about the Church (aka the Catholic Church before the reformation) and how this organization has inspired works of art and how, in my opinion, it has been an impediment to science. I think we both are aware there are other denominations and that not every person who calls himself a Christian will be a follower of Catholicism nor a fan. If you want to discuss the differences between Catholicism and your version of Christianity, then I think that could be an interesting thread on its own.

[Dazey]

15 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Well, if it is bollocks it is a bollocks which established some of the greatest architecture, music and arts, as well as creating institutes of learning in which academia could flourish, instigating textual scrutiny, propagating a European langua franca (Latin) and still being immensely important today,

Impressive cajones.

It's bollocks for one simple reason. It's based on grown adults believing in the supernatural. That's all the argument anybody needs.

[soon]

54 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

I think both Diesel and I have been talking about the Church (aka the Catholic Church before the reformation) and how this organization has inspired works of art and how, in my opinion, it has been an impediment to science. I think we both are aware there are other denominations and that not every person who calls himself a Christian will be a follower of Catholicism nor a fan. If you want to discuss the differences between Catholicism and your version of Christianity, then I think that could be an interesting thread on its own.

I see.  I probably did just skim over some of your back and forth.  I dont wanna start that thread as thats not actually what I was saying.  But yes, this thread should remain on immortality / catholicism and art / science but nothing else  

Edited August 27, 2017 by soon

[RussTCB]

The older I get, the more my mortality is on my mind. I'm sure that's the way for everyone though. I count myself in the camp of those who would be all for immortality though.