Slash Interview (VINTAGE - September 1996)

[scooby845]

On 10/5/2017 at 5:05 AM, RONIN said:

It appears that there is a short session in early 1994 with Axl, Slash, Duff, Gilby, and Matt

I thought Gilby was gone by then...

?

[Sosso]

2 minutes ago, scooby845 said:

I thought Gilby was gone by then...

?

Maybe he fired after that session? 

[RONIN]

2 minutes ago, scooby845 said:

I thought Gilby was gone by then...

?

The pre-snakepit jam sessions where Axl rejects Slash's material and everyone splinters off in their own direction happens in early '94. That pretty much unofficially is the end of Gilby in the band. He was there for those sessions though - and that's when Axl decides he can't work with Gilby.

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

@Blackstar you are a champ as usual.   Thanks so much for posting this.  As @RONIN said already, fascinating and enlightening.

First thing that struck me was that Slash is obviously wanting to 'get stuff of his chest' by unexpectedly agreeing to the interview, probably while drunk or getting there (he said he'd virtually stopped taking drugs at this point but increased the drinking).  His 'you're pulling stuff out of me' and 'this is personal, I shouldn't be saying this' is a give-away.  That whole 'the band is working towards working' is also a red flag that the opposite was happening.  

Things I found interesting:

- Slash acknowledges, not for the first time, that Axl has a difficult job as singer/performer.  Even while he hated the delays and the antics; he had always stuck up for Axl in small ways.  Reason I mention it is because in Slash's autobiography he states Axl's constant delays as the major reason for his leaving the band, but this contradicts the many times Slash has defended Axl (including two separate occasions to Howard Stern).

- Axl had been wanting to make a record the whole time.  Axl gets accused of being lazy a lot and I've never really thought that rang true.  Axl's always had a work ethic - it was one of the things Slash liked about him.  

- "Either Paul goes or he..."  Axl goes?  Is that what Slash was going to say before checking himself?  Is THAT what Axl meant when he said Slash wanted to 'take over the band'?  Was it a case of of 'fuck you Axl, I'm not leaving my own band because you brought a dickhead guitar playing in without consulting me so I want dickhead gone, and if you don't like it you can go too."  

- "In Axl's mind Guns is his solo project...he didn't see any reason why he should do a solo thing."  Again, echoing what Axl has said. Axl is a monogamist when it comes to bands. But here Slash is saying the source of tension was differences of opinion over musical direction.  In his autobiography, he emphatically denies that musical differences was the reason for him leaving or a source of tension, and instead, blames his leaving on Axl's delays.  Complete about-turn.

- "You've got to watch the beast in this business that stops you from talking to one another."  For me, this is the key part of the whole interview because it's something both Axl and Slash have mentioned and it's something Slash mentioned only a few months ago, pinning the blame for the split squarely on outsiders = management/lawyers etc.  It would seem that those outsiders who sought to divide and conquer GNR played a more significant role in tensions and eventual split than fans generally believe. This makes more sense to me as well.  As much as personal differences, diva/control freak antics and addictions were definite problems, I don't think they were insurmountable problems.  I think the outsiders proved to be an insurmountable problem for the guys - I'm now wondering a lot more about that aspect of the split.

'Axl's playing guitar now so I have to deal with that.'  GNR quote of the day!  I can only imagine!  Poor Slash!   

Edited October 6, 2017 by MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle

[RONIN]

1 hour ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

@Blackstar you are a champ as usual.   Thanks so much for posting this.  As @RONIN said already, fascinating and enlightening.

First thing that struck me was that Slash is obviously wanting to 'get stuff of his chest' by unexpectedly agreeing to the interview, probably while drunk or getting there (he said he'd virtually stopped taking drugs at this point but increased the drinking).  His 'you're pulling stuff out of me' and 'this is personal, I shouldn't be saying this' is a give-away.  That whole 'the band is working towards working' is also a red flag that the opposite was happening.  

Things I found interesting:

- Slash acknowledges, not for the first time, that Axl has a difficult job as singer/performer.  Even while he hated the delays and the antics; he had always stuck up for Axl in small ways.  Reason I mention it is because in Slash's autobiography he states Axl's constant delays as the major reason for his leaving the band, but this contradicts the many times Slash has defended Axl (including two separate occasions to Howard Stern).

From what I recall, I think Slash mentions that he would have stuck through an Industrial album if there was some mutual respect and professional courtesy between him and Axl. Duff also cites the respect and courtesy angle as a strong factor in his leaving the band. The innuendo here is probably that the band was being run too much like a dictatorship - they didn't have say in who was getting hired/fired - and Axl was showing up whenever he wanted for rehearsals and keeping the band waiting 5-7 hrs or just not showing up at all. It was a respect thing - they may have been able to pull through if that was addressed in a satisfactory fashion.

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- Axl had been wanting to make a record the whole time.  Axl gets accused of being lazy a lot and I've never really thought that rang true.  Axl's always had a work ethic - it was one of the things Slash liked about him.  

He may have wanted to make a record but he was not showing up for rehearsals and he was not singing on any tracks that Duff and Slash were laying down. He was rejecting everything they were playing to him as per Duff. By the time Youth comes into the project, Axl hadn't sung in 18 months according to him. That means the last time he may have potentially sung *could* have been at the '96 sessions but Duff/Slash say there were no songs recorded during that time. Zakk Wylde also mentions that Axl never sang during his '95 sessions and he went solo after realizing Axl wouldn't do anything with his material. Robin Finck as well. Moby confirms that there were no vocal tracks that he knew of during the time he heard the band's demos in 97. Chris Vrenna also mentions as much iirc.

It's hard to create an album when the lead singer just wants to collect riffs and mix and match portions of hundreds of riffs on his computer instead of singing and jamming with the band. That's the core problem here that led to the disintegration of not only the old lineup, but the 1st nu guns lineup (finck, freese, billy howerdel) and 2nd (bucket, finck, brain). Duff and Slash put out their solo records during this time. Freese and Billy Howerdel created the foundation of APC during the Chinese Democracy sessions. Freese is on record as saying he was bored waiting for Axl to show up and quit because nothing was getting done. Finck as well. Duff, Slash, and Finck had stacks and stacks of tapes of their separate jam sessions. Whatever was going on with Axl at that time - he was paralyzed and didn't know what he was doing musically. His work ethic was never all that great even if he is a perfectionist - Izzy was the first guy to turn in his work for Illusions and he's mentioned before how Axl delayed Illusions by not keeping to the schedule and missing rehearsals. Matt was fired for criticizing Axl about not keeping to the schedule for rehearsing the 96 album. He has a documented history here of having a generally poor work ethic and his own bandmates are the ones saying this.

I think what Slash is saying is that Axl is meticulous - a perfectionist with his music. That doesn't necessarily indicate having a work ethic.

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- "Either Paul goes or he..."  Axl goes?  Is that what Slash was going to say before checking himself?  Is THAT what Axl meant when he said Slash wanted to 'take over the band'?  Was it a case of of 'fuck you Axl, I'm not leaving my own band because you brought a dickhead guitar playing in without consulting me so I want dickhead gone, and if you don't like it you can go too."  

Interesting catch. Could definitely be what you're saying...

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- "In Axl's mind Guns is his solo project...he didn't see any reason why he should do a solo thing."  Again, echoing what Axl has said. Axl is a monogamist when it comes to bands. But here Slash is saying the source of tension was differences of opinion over musical direction.  In his autobiography, he emphatically denies that musical differences was the reason for him leaving or a source of tension, and instead, blames his leaving on Axl's delays.  Complete about-turn.

I think that was the surface issue but the real tension was more than likely contractual negotiations. Like I said on the previous page, I think Axl leaving the partnership pretty much ends GnR. Paul Huge and the musical direction are really secondary issues that Slash and Duff were venting about in the press, but the actual catalyst for leaving is likely the loss of power with getting demoted and not being able to have a say in who is in the band or what the musical direction will be. Even if they had worked through Paul and the musical direction, it's hard to imagine Slash and Duff going along with being employees when they fought to the top along with Axl and were superstars by that point in time. No way could they take a secondary role in the band that they had fought for and built from the bottom up. It was, again, a respect thing. 

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- "You've got to watch the beast in this business that stops you from talking to one another."  For me, this is the key part of the whole interview because it's something both Axl and Slash have mentioned and it's something Slash mentioned only a few months ago, pinning the blame for the split squarely on outsiders = management/lawyers etc.  It would seem that those outsiders who sought to divide and conquer GNR played a more significant role in tensions and eventual split than fans generally believe. This makes more sense to me as well.  As much as personal differences, diva/control freak antics and addictions were definite problems, I don't think they were insurmountable problems.  I think the outsiders proved to be an insurmountable problem for the guys - I'm now wondering a lot more about that aspect of the split.

Yep. The architect of their demise was more than likely Doug Goldstein - and that essentially begins when he orchestrates the removal of Alan Niven in 1990/91 - the guy who was looking out for the band, not necessarily just one band member. @Blackstar mentioned a great little factoid to me when we were talking about this over messages - Goldstein's contract was up for renegotiation in '95. Axl leaves the partnership in '95. Coincidence? What do you think the chances are that Duff and Slash would have been onboard to rehire Goldstein as the band's manager in '95? That's the answer really - the smoking gun of the story. Had he been fired, the band could have been saved. Needless to say, both Duff and Slash loathe the guy to this day.

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'Axl's playing guitar now so I have to deal with that.'  GNR quote of the day!  I can only imagine!  Poor Slash!   

 

One of many dumb things Axl did post Illusions. The other notable one being him trying to bring in other lead guitarists to play with Slash like Zakk Wylde, Dave Navarro, etc. Way to keep the morale of your lead guitarist up by bringing in other potential replacements. Can you imagine Slash suggesting to Axl that he wants to bring in Chris Cornell to sing a few tracks on the next GnR album?

 

 

Edited October 6, 2017 by RONIN

[Sosso]

14 minutes ago, RONIN said:

From what I recall, I think Slash mentions that he would have stuck through an Industrial album if there was some mutual respect and professional courtesy between him and Axl. Duff also cites the respect and courtesy angle as a strong factor in his leaving the band. The innuendo here is probably that the band was being run too much like a dictatorship - they didn't have say in who was getting hired/fired - and Axl was showing up whenever he wanted for rehearsals and keeping the band waiting 5-7 hrs or just not showing up at all. It was a respect thing - they may have been able to pull through if that was addressed in a satisfactory fashion.

Most ironically, that was one of the reasons why Tracii was fired - because he didn't showed up to a couple of rehearsals 

Edited October 6, 2017 by Sosso

[scooby845]

9 minutes ago, RONIN said:

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- "Either Paul goes or he..."  Axl goes?  Is that what Slash was going to say before checking himself?  Is THAT what Axl meant when he said Slash wanted to 'take over the band'?  Was it a case of of 'fuck you Axl, I'm not leaving my own band because you brought a dickhead guitar playing in without consulting me so I want dickhead gone, and if you don't like it you can go too."  

Interesting catch. Could definitely be what you're saying...

It's not HE, it's I go...

More on it here.. Didn't You Used To Be Axl Rose?

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=42

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

43 minutes ago, RONIN said:

It's hard to create an album when the lead singer just wants to collect riffs and mix and match portions of hundreds of riffs on his computer instead of singing and jamming with the band. That's the core problem here that led to the disintegration of not only the old lineup, but the 1st nu guns lineup (finck, freese, billy howerdel) and 2nd (bucket, finck, brain).

I think the actual musical differences could have been worked out (like Blackstar has said, it's a bit of an urban GNR myth that Axl wanted to make an industrial album - he didn't know what he wanted to make and was all over the place ideas wise) but what you've highlighted is a difference in method of music making.  And that would have been pretty tricky to overcome.

I think it was Fortus who said he's never seen anyone create a song the way Axl does, piecing together bits and bobs like a jigsaw puzzle.  Essentially, Axl was playing the role of producer and making music the way a lot of music is made today but wasn't back then.  At the time, Axl's method must have seemed absolutely hair-brained to traditionalists like Slash and Duff, but fast forward 15-20 years and Slash is using similar methods of making music with Myles - obviously not quite like that, but the principle remains the same: mixing and matching sounds and sending pieces over the internet with Myles compiling stuff on his computer and sending a 'demo' back to Slash.  

Slash has even said how he now records riffs via an app on his phone and sends those to Myles, although he doesn't like to rely on it too much.  The Slash of the 90s would surely have been horrified.  I'm guessing Axl would have had in mind to sing his vocals last thing and alone (since he was 'producer') had an album actually been made but to the other guys, Axl was doing nothing, not singing, not showing up (yet Slash acknowledges in this interview that Axl was the only one in the studio - makes you wonder what samples Axl has stored on a memory stick or something, in the vault!).

Something tells me the two would be more willing to compromise on methods today.

Point taken about Axl's 'worth ethic' or the lack thereof. 

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Yep. The architect of their demise was more than likely Doug Goldstein - and that essentially begins when he orchestrates the removal of Alan Niven in 1990/91 - the guy who was looking out for the band, not necessarily just one band member. @Blackstar mentioned a great little factoid to me when we were talking about this over messages - Goldstein's contract was up for renegotiation in '95. Axl leaves the partnership in '95. Coincidence? What do you think the chances are that Duff and Slash would have been onboard to rehire Goldstein as the band's manager in '95? That's the answer really - the smoking gun of the story. Had he been fired, the band could have been saved. Needless to say, both Duff and Slash loathe the guy to this day.

Nice one.  That is interesting.  I always wondered why Axl hated Niven (and why Izzy was managed by him knowing Axl hated him) and the other two hated Goldstein.  This is a subject I'm wanting to know more about now as I haven't delved too deeply into management etc and the role they played.  I'm currently re-assesing my theories! LOL

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Way to keep the morale of your lead guitarist up by bringing in other potential replacements. Can you imagine Slash suggesting to Axl that he wants to bring in Chris Cornell to sing a few tracks on the next GnR album?

Reminds me of reading about when Slash ODd and he recalls Axl saying something along the lines of, "You gave us a scare, I was thinking I'd have to find a replacement guitarist." When I read that, I was like, what an asshole thing to say Axl!  Wouldn't surprise me if he 'subtly' threatened Slash with that all the time.

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

45 minutes ago, scooby845 said:

It's not HE, it's I go...

More on it here.. Didn't You Used To Be Axl Rose?

http://www.heretodaygonetohell.com/articles/showarticle.php?articleid=42

But in the interview posted Slash says, 'either Paul goes or he...' and then he stops himself presumably, if we trust the journalism.  In the article you link to the 'he' is cut off.  Obviously, Slash goes. lol  

But my point was what happened in between Slash doing that interview and leaving?  Did Slash try to get Axl to leave over Paul?  I'm sure ultimatums were thrown on both sides, I'm just speculating because I don't think Axl would say a thing like Slash tried take over the band for no good reason? 

[janrichmond]

1 minute ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

But in the interview posted Slash says, 'either Paul goes or he...' and then he stops himself presumably, if we trust the journalism.  In the article you link to the 'he' is cut off.  Obviously, Slash goes. lol  

But my point was what happened in between Slash doing that interview and leaving?  Did Slash try to get Axl to leave over Paul?  I'm sure ultimatums were thrown on both sides, I'm just speculating because I don't think Axl would say a thing like Slash tried take over the band for no good reason? 

I don't think for a second Slash meant that Axl goes, Slash always knew that Axl was irreplaceable in Guns and admired his unique style. He could maybe have said 'either he goes or he loses me' or words to that effect.

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

1 minute ago, janrichmond said:

I don't think for a second Slash meant that Axl goes, Slash always knew that Axl was irreplaceable in Guns and admired his unique style. He could maybe have said 'either he goes or he loses me' or words to that effect.

Good point.  Slash has always been consistent in his admiration of Axl.  Still...it's an odd thing for Axl to have in his head.  I don't think Slash was actually trying to take over the band but he obviously did something that made Axl think that he was...unless Goldstein was planting the idea in Axl's head?

[janrichmond]

2 minutes ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

unless Goldstein was planting the idea in Axl's head?

I always thought he was the main villain in the break down of the band. Axl's behaviour of course was detrimental to the band but that could have been managed better if Goldstein wasn't such an enabler/shit stirrer.

[thunderram]

On 10/1/2017 at 1:26 PM, double talkin jive mfkr said:

Izzy's god like legendary status has increased significantly since NITL and has surpassed that of Axl as a result of not selling out. 

 

According to who? Biased Stradlin fans?? I agree. 

Funny that Izzy is praised for not selling out when it's obvious he was more than willing to for the right amount of "loot".

People see and hear what they want to.

[RONIN]

6 hours ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

I think the actual musical differences could have been worked out (like Blackstar has said, it's a bit of an urban GNR myth that Axl wanted to make an industrial album - he didn't know what he wanted to make and was all over the place ideas wise) but what you've highlighted is a difference in method of music making.  And that would have been pretty tricky to overcome.

Very good point about the approach to music. Totally. Axl was tech heavy and wanted to approach their music with a modern touch (the electronic music influence was heavy on him at this time) - and Duff and Slash were analog guys. It would have been a huge challenge for sure to work through that.

Not sure where I stand on the Industrial thing - on one hand, I think Blackstar has a point - but the thing is, I think for most of the 90's Axl was evolving GNR towards an industrial sound but the actual 1996 album may have been a collection of different styles like Illusions. Once Duff and Slash exit, the direction goes more towards a full industrial album but I think with the exit of Sean Beavan from Chinese Democracy, the music moves again back to being a collection of different styles. But let's be clear, Axl definitely favors Industrial and alt rock and whatever album was going to come out in the 90's almost certainly would have been dominated by that sound. This is from his hit parader interview in 1993:

HP: There has been talk, however, about Slash doing a solo project. Can you ever see yourself doing an album away from Guns N' Roses?
AXL: I want to do some stuff on my own, but not as a means of trying to prove my own sense of identity. You know the song My World on Use Your Illusion II? I want to do a whole project like that by myself and with whoever else might want to be on it. But right now it's just me and a computer engineer. It's just raw expression - just putting ideas together. We just go in, say 'what do we want to do' and get to work. We completed My World in three hours. It's something that I need to get out of my system, but it's not something I want to base my career and future on.

HP: You mention the idea of working with other musicians. If you had your choice, who would you really like to work with on a project?
AXL: Trent Reznor from Nine Inch Nails is one, and Dave Navarro from Jane's Addiction is another guy I want to work with. I've talked to Trent about working with me on an industrial synth project, at least on one song, and I definitely want to work with Dave on something. I've always been curious what he would sound like working with Slash on something.

http://www.gnrevolution.com/viewtopic.php?id=3268

Dave Dominguez has also mentioned that before his exit from the band in '97, the songs he heard definitely were sounding industrial. Maybe there is truth to the rumors that Axl had cut an industrial album as well as a more Use Your Illusion 3 GnR album (where songs like Catcher in the Rye would have appeared). 

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I think it was Fortus who said he's never seen anyone create a song the way Axl does, piecing together bits and bobs like a jigsaw puzzle.  Essentially, Axl was playing the role of producer and making music the way a lot of music is made today but wasn't back then.  At the time, Axl's method must have seemed absolutely hair-brained to traditionalists like Slash and Duff, but fast forward 15-20 years and Slash is using similar methods of making music with Myles - obviously not quite like that, but the principle remains the same: mixing and matching sounds and sending pieces over the internet with Myles compiling stuff on his computer and sending a 'demo' back to Slash.  

Slash has even said how he now records riffs via an app on his phone and sends those to Myles, although he doesn't like to rely on it too much.  The Slash of the 90s would surely have been horrified.  I'm guessing Axl would have had in mind to sing his vocals last thing and alone (since he was 'producer') had an album actually been made but to the other guys, Axl was doing nothing, not singing, not showing up (yet Slash acknowledges in this interview that Axl was the only one in the studio - makes you wonder what samples Axl has stored on a memory stick or something, in the vault!).

Something tells me the two would be more willing to compromise on methods today.

 

Very good point. I think Axl was looking towards the future with what he was doing - the guy was always forward thinking and to a large extent, even Duff was. I think he was on the right track but the way he went about it was pretty terrible - his approach to doing things was just ineffective. Axl wanted to be good at everything - he wanted to be a producer, guitarist, - he wanted to master different styles of music like alt rock and industrial - there's nothing wrong with any of that, ambition is always great - but the guy just overreached. He ended up being mediocre at all those things and ignoring his true genuis: being an amazing frontman, singer/songwriter for hard rock and ballads. Sometimes you have to know what you're good at. That's where guys like Slash have a point. You might enjoy Soundgarden or Pearl Jam - but that doesn't mean you're in a position to do that type of music well. Michael Jordan was a great basketball player - does anyone remember his baseball career? 

 

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Nice one.  That is interesting.  I always wondered why Axl hated Niven (and why Izzy was managed by him knowing Axl hated him) and the other two hated Goldstein.  This is a subject I'm wanting to know more about now as I haven't delved too deeply into management etc and the role they played.  I'm currently re-assesing my theories! LOL

I'm sure Blackstar can really answer this one well but in a nutshell:

*Niven and Axl never got along because Niven looked out for the entire band and wasn't going to be Axl's yes-man. Axl wanted to have the manager coddle him and let him essentially run the band by proxy. Niven, like Matt Sorum, basically would get in Axl's face and tell him he was wrong about certain things. Niven kept Axl in check and that was good for the band - they were at the peak of their popularity under his management. He was a really savvy guy with a good understanding of the band dynamics and what their strengths/weaknesses were. Just like Steven Adler may not have been the best drummer ever but was perfect for guns - Niven was a perfect manager for Guns. The problem was, Niven not only wasn't going to coddle Axl - he was ideologically opposed to Axl's approach towards the music, especially with Illusions. He was against them being bloated - he wanted them to tour in '91 which apparently was a point of contention with Axl. Ofcourse in hindsight, Niven was absolutely right that it made good business sense to tour after YCBM came out with T2. If he had it his way, Illusions would have come out then and sold even more rather than having a delayed release in the fall of '91. And last but not least - Niven and Izzy/Duff/Slash were all musically on the same page - they saw things similarly as far as the way the music should be approached. 

*Somewhere along the line, Goldstein begins to work his way up the ranks from lowly tour crew member - and as per Niven, he knew the guy was trouble and was angling for his job. I think Slash mentions something similar that he knew early on that Goldstein was nothing but trouble. Duff has mentioned many times in his late 90's interviews about "yes men" - it's Goldstein that we can assume he's more than likely referring to. Goldstein is an enabler and he begins to get Axl's ear - filling his head with nonsense and playing to his ego. This is where Goldstein makes his move and edges out Niven once the Geffen contract negotiations are a done deal. They used Niven's relationship with David Geffen to negotiate a better deal and then dumped him when it was finalized. I suspect it's possible that before the final contract was sent over to Geffen, Niven is fired and Goldstein adds in the bit about the GnR brand name belonging to Axl - something Niven would have never signed off on. So even before the Illusion tour begins, I think the name was probably already Axl's - feel free to correct me here @Blackstar

*Niven is removed with the approval of Slash (despite his misgivings) - a crucial and fatal mistake that sets up their downfall. This happens because allegedly, as per Doug Goldstein, Niven makes a pass at Slash's girlfriend. Normally I'd dismiss this since it's from Doug, however Slash is very coy about why he agreed to let Axl sack Niven - he mentions something about how Niven did something really personal and fucked up that he couldn't ignore. Seems plausible that maybe what Goldstein said might have been the truth. Once Niven is ousted, Izzy quickly follows because Niven and Izzy were tight - he was the guy Izzy could count on in spite of the chaos. Had Niven remained in the band, it seems likely that Izzy would have somehow pulled through the Illusion tour and not quit.

*Now with Goldstein in charge, the band dynamics quickly change and that's further made worse by Steven and Izzy leaving the band. Now it becomes a power struggle with three original members and the manager is openly favoring one member and angling him to seize more power - to safeguard his own position in the band. Knowing that Duff and Slash resent him more and more - and knowing that they could outvote Axl and not go along with renewing his contract in '95, he more than likely comes up with the idea to have Axl take over the band by demoting the others and diminishing their role in band affairs. Axl may not have thought of this or necessarily even got this into his head in the first place without Doug whispering in his ear - either way though, Axl went along with Doug's idea and the rest is history. End of GnR. 

As Jan said, Goldstein is basically the true villain of the band. If Paul is the Yoko Ono of GnR, Goldstein is like a slimier, slippier version of Elvis' Colonel Tom Parker. The only thing with Goldstein is that unlike the Colonel, he couldn't control his star - Axl was uncontrollable and unpredictable. The ousting of Duff and Slash bought him time and made him a fortune but it didn't really give him the longevity he was desperately hoping for. And he was cut out of the reunion despite his pathetic letter to Axl pleading to let him back into the fold. 

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Reminds me of reading about when Slash ODd and he recalls Axl saying something along the lines of, "You gave us a scare, I was thinking I'd have to find a replacement guitarist." When I read that, I was like, what an asshole thing to say Axl!  Wouldn't surprise me if he 'subtly' threatened Slash with that all the time.

Yep. And it's this kind of stuff that makes me wonder how much Doug Goldstein played Axl or whether Axl knew exactly what Goldstein was up to and let him think he was playing him. I think Axl knew what he wanted and that was full control and ownership of the band. And he checkmated everyone who stood in the way including, ultimately, Doug Goldstein. If you really think about it, both Niven and Goldstein were ultimately a means to an end - pawns of Axl that were used to achieve certain objectives.  I mean it's cool that the boys are now blaming management for tearing them apart but I'm not so sure that's really the full story here. Certainly the levels of handlers made communication difficult and misunderstandings were blown out of proportion as a result - but let's be real, Axl knew what he was doing. The evidence seems to support that conclusion. He got the contract he wanted with Geffen thanks to Niven and he got ownership of the name and full autonomy without any interference from the partners thanks to Goldstein. Who stood to gain the most legally and financially from this turn of events? Axl. 

 

Edited October 7, 2017 by RONIN

[scooby845]

10 hours ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

But my point was what happened in between Slash doing that interview and leaving?  Did Slash try to get Axl to leave over Paul?  I'm sure ultimatums were thrown on both sides, I'm just speculating because I don't think Axl would say a thing like Slash tried take over the band for no good reason? 

I still wonder what Axl saw in Paul so much that it was worth sticking to it and breaking up the Guns N' Roses...

Needless to say, Paul left like what 5 years later...?

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

19 hours ago, RONIN said:

Not sure where I stand on the Industrial thing - on one hand, I think Blackstar has a point - but the thing is, I think for most of the 90's Axl was evolving GNR towards an industrial sound but the actual 1996 album may have been a collection of different styles like Illusions. 

Thanks for the interview snippet.  Hmm…I agree with you on the part I've quoted; certainly that's my take on it.  

I still lean towards Axl hadn’t decided what GNR’s definitive future sound would be.  Yes, the new industrial sound would have had an influence, but to dominate?  I’m not so sure.  He says himself it was something he had to ‘get out of his system’, that he didn’t want to ‘base his whole future and career on it’ and he may well have just wanted at least ‘one song’ to carry that specific sound. 

You know what’s really interesting though?  That he wanted to include Slash on this.  Clearly, Axl didn’t see his experimentation as solo (as so many fans do - and I include myself in that).  He obviously wanted the other guys involved, especially Slash.  I’ve always thought (and there’s evidence) that Axl had high hopes for Slash ‘evolving’ as it were, along with him, which of course didn’t happen.  Axl probably assumed the two were an in-sync partnership - Slash certainly thought so in 91/92 - and that they should have moved in the same direction together.  I can imagine Axl was completely mystified as to why Slash resisted that.  In hindsight, we can now see that Slash was not, musically speaking, a risk taker, or wanting to venture out of his comfort zone at that time. **

 

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Very good point. I think Axl was looking towards the future with what he was doing - the guy was always forward thinking and to a large extent, even Duff was.

I think you’re giving Duff too much credit here, bless him. ^^   Any music he put out independent of GNR was decidedly generic, remaining very safely within genre boundaries.  Although Duff has wide ranging taste in music, in practice, he tends to stick with what he knows and understands.

 

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He ended up being mediocre at all those things and ignoring his true genuis: being an amazing frontman, singer/songwriter for hard rock and ballads. Sometimes you have to know what you're good at. That's where guys like Slash have a point. You might enjoy Soundgarden or Pearl Jam - but that doesn't mean you're in a position to do that type of music well. Michael Jordan was a great basketball player - does anyone remember his baseball career? 

I agree that Axl’s approach was ineffective, but then again, we say that, the guys say that, yet who knows how difficult it must have been for a risk-taking visionary to convince risk-averse traditionalists to get on board with his ‘new-fangled’ ideas?  Axl has mentioned before how hard it was to convince the two to play their parts for his new ideas for UYI.  Now if Axl had given in to them, we’d not have the masterpiece that is Estranged for example, because both Slash and Duff actively resisted that song, among others.  Both Slash and Duff have since acknowledged that in the AFD days Axl pushed them musically and though they fought him on it, his instincts were always proven right.  

I disagree that Axl’s only true talent is being a frontman.  *deep breath*  CD is evidence that Axl was hugely talented in areas other than performance and whether or not you agree depends on what you think of CD.  I know you don't think much of it.  I get what he was trying to achieve, where he was trying to go.  In my opinion, CD is not an example of Axl failing on a musical level, but succeeding, despite all the obstacles, many of which were of Axl’s own making = whole other convo.  

Did he overreach?  I think it was more a case of he needed others to help achieve his goals and that's where he failed: managing relationships.  He would have alienated everyone he worked with.  I imagine he’d be that creative type who never communicates his ideas or his plan.  He would know how everything should play out because the grand vision would be in his head but nobody else would have a clue what was going on, when or how (I work with someone exactly like this - it's extremely frustrating).  So every musician he ever hired to help deliver his vision would walk away complaining about the same things and feeling the same frustrations.  And Axl would be all, what’s wrong with these people, what’s their problem?  

CD shows that Axl didn’t want to be Pearl Jam or Soundgarden – he was aiming much higher than that.  I think he wanted to be in a league of his own.  I think he wanted to be his own kind of Bowie.  Unfortunately, his inability to work with others, make decisions and most of all, his inability to trust in himself hindered his progress.  That’s where he failed. 

LOL Michael Jordan!! 

 

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I'm sure Blackstar can really answer this one well but in a nutshell:

*Niven and Axl never got along because Niven looked out for the entire band and wasn't going to be Axl's yes-man. Axl wanted to have the manager coddle him and let him essentially run the band by proxy. Niven, like Matt Sorum, basically would get in Axl's face and tell him he was wrong about certain things. Niven kept Axl in check and that was good for the band - they were at the peak of their popularity under his management. He was a really savvy guy with a good understanding of the band dynamics and what their strengths/weaknesses were. Just like Steven Adler may not have been the best drummer ever but was perfect for guns - Niven was a perfect manager for Guns. The problem was, Niven not only wasn't going to coddle Axl - he was ideologically opposed to Axl's approach towards the music, especially with Illusions. He was against them being bloated - he wanted them to tour in '91 which apparently was a point of contention with Axl. Ofcourse in hindsight, Niven was absolutely right that it made good business sense to tour after YCBM came out with T2. If he had it his way, Illusions would have come out then and sold even more rather than having a delayed release in the fall of '91. And last but not least - Niven and Izzy/Duff/Slash were all musically on the same page - they saw things similarly as far as the way the music should be approached. 

*Somewhere along the line, Goldstein begins to work his way up the ranks from lowly tour crew member - and as per Niven, he knew the guy was trouble and was angling for his job. I think Slash mentions something similar that he knew early on that Goldstein was nothing but trouble. Duff has mentioned many times in his late 90's interviews about "yes men" - it's Goldstein that we can assume he's more than likely referring to. Goldstein is an enabler and he begins to get Axl's ear - filling his head with nonsense and playing to his ego. This is where Goldstein makes his move and edges out Niven once the Geffen contract negotiations are a done deal. They used Niven's relationship with David Geffen to negotiate a better deal and then dumped him when it was finalized. I suspect it's possible that before the final contract was sent over to Geffen, Niven is fired and Goldstein adds in the bit about the GnR brand name belonging to Axl - something Niven would have never signed off on. So even before the Illusion tour begins, I think the name was probably already Axl's - feel free to correct me here @Blackstar

*Niven is removed with the approval of Slash (despite his misgivings) - a crucial and fatal mistake that sets up their downfall. This happens because allegedly, as per Doug Goldstein, Niven makes a pass at Slash's girlfriend. Normally I'd dismiss this since it's from Doug, however Slash is very coy about why he agreed to let Axl sack Niven - he mentions something about how Niven did something really personal and fucked up that he couldn't ignore. Seems plausible that maybe what Goldstein said might have been the truth. Once Niven is ousted, Izzy quickly follows because Niven and Izzy were tight - he was the guy Izzy could count on in spite of the chaos. Had Niven remained in the band, it seems likely that Izzy would have somehow pulled through the Illusion tour and not quit.

*Now with Goldstein in charge, the band dynamics quickly change and that's further made worse by Steven and Izzy leaving the band. Now it becomes a power struggle with three original members and the manager is openly favoring one member and angling him to seize more power - to safeguard his own position in the band. Knowing that Duff and Slash resent him more and more - and knowing that they could outvote Axl and not go along with renewing his contract in '95, he more than likely comes up with the idea to have Axl take over the band by demoting the others and diminishing their role in band affairs. Axl may not have thought of this or necessarily even got this into his head in the first place without Doug whispering in his ear - either way though, Axl went along with Doug's idea and the rest is history. End of GnR. 

As Jan said, Goldstein is basically the true villain of the band. If Paul is the Yoko Ono of GnR, Goldstein is like a slimier, slippier version of Elvis' Colonel Tom Parker. The only thing with Goldstein is that unlike the Colonel, he couldn't control his star - Axl was uncontrollable and unpredictable. The ousting of Duff and Slash bought him time and made him a fortune but it didn't really give him the longevity he was desperately hoping for. And he was cut out of the reunion despite his pathetic letter to Axl pleading to let him back into the fold. 

Yep. And it's this kind of stuff that makes me wonder how much Doug Goldstein played Axl or whether Axl knew exactly what Goldstein was up to and let him think he was playing him. I think Axl knew what he wanted and that was full control and ownership of the band. And he checkmated everyone who stood in the way including, ultimately, Doug Goldstein. If you really think about it, both Niven and Goldstein were ultimately a means to an end - pawns of Axl that were used to achieve certain objectives.  I mean it's cool that the boys are now blaming management for tearing them apart but I'm not so sure that's really the full story here. Certainly the levels of handlers made communication difficult and misunderstandings were blown out of proportion as a result - but let's be real, Axl knew what he was doing. The evidence seems to support that conclusion. He got the contract he wanted with Geffen thanks to Niven and he got ownership of the name and full autonomy without any interference from the partners thanks to Goldstein. Who stood to gain the most legally and financially from this turn of events? Axl. 

 

Brilliant! Thanks for this, really detailed.   Axl certainly likes those who start off as lowly crew members/nannies etc and end up in high ranking positions as with Goldstein/TB.  Guess he sees himself in those?

- I'm baffled by the whole Slash approval thing and Niven making a pass at his girlfriend.  Really? What was he thinking?  Has Slash ever stated what the thing was that Niven did to upset him or is the girlfriend thing speculation?  Whole thing seems weird.

- Is the begging letter to Axl online somewhere?

- Definitely more to the story (as usual with Guns).  And contrary to Axl thinking he'd got all he wanted, ultimately, what Axl got was his own demise as time would prove.  He ended up isolated and unproductive, and had bitten off more than he could chew.  Very Michael Corleone of him, sadly.

 

** The only time imo Slash ever pushed himself musically, was when he worked with Chris Cornell and Andrew Stockdale, who in particular, really pushed Slash out of his comfort zone and revealed what Slash was capable of (no co-incidence Axl likes By the Sword).  Unpopular opinion: I believe Slash squandered a lot of his potential and that he has been under achieving in this regard for many years – I am convinced Axl would agree, which is why he was so upset with the direction Slash took post GNR and why he couldn’t understand Slash leaving.  

For what it’s worth, I believe Slash needed an Axl in his musical life (Stockdale being the closest he ever got) and Axl needed a Slash – the two never found their respective replacements.

Edited October 7, 2017 by MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle

[MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle]

10 hours ago, scooby845 said:

I still wonder what Axl saw in Paul so much that it was worth sticking to it and breaking up the Guns N' Roses...

Needless to say, Paul left like what 5 years later...?

I think he was looking for an Izzy replacement and he thought Paul was it because they shared a similar background.  He was wrong.  I imagine it was also a case of no matter who Axl brought in, Slash and Duff would have been opposed because that's how bad the band dynamics had become.  Axl no doubt handled it badly, but Slash and Duff also weren't coming up with solutions leaving Axl to that - and then they wonder why shit hit the fan?  Slash and Duff should have been smarter about it - they weren't.

[ludurigan]

2 hours ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

I think he was looking for an Izzy replacement and he thought Paul was it because they shared a similar background.  He was wrong.  I imagine it was also a case of no matter who Axl brought in, Slash and Duff would have been opposed because that's how bad the band dynamics had become.  Axl no doubt handled it badly, but Slash and Duff also weren't coming up with solutions leaving Axl to that - and then they wonder why shit hit the fan?  Slash and Duff should have been smarter about it - they weren't.

id say it doesnt really matter what he was looking for

id say the point here is how axl just pushed this person down everybody throaths and didnt take no for an answer

thats the same modus operandi that drove izzy away from GNR many years before etc etc etc

 

[ludurigan]

12 hours ago, scooby845 said:

I still wonder what Axl saw in Paul so much that it was worth sticking to it and breaking up the Guns N' Roses...

Needless to say, Paul left like what 5 years later...?

i suppose if you look a bit harder on this you will notice that the break up of GNR what was left of the band didnt happen because of this paul guitar player.

at all

he was only the last straw.

 

[ludurigan]

23 hours ago, janrichmond said:

I always thought he was the main villain in the break down of the band. Axl's behaviour of course was detrimental to the band but that could have been managed better if Goldstein wasn't such an enabler/shit stirrer.

exactly

axl nonsense and madness was always there

but once alan niven left and doug "enabler" goldstein walked in...

that was it, all hell broke loose

axl went out-of-control and never looked back!

[scooby845]

2 hours ago, MyPrettyTiedUpMichelle said:

I think he was looking for an Izzy replacement and he thought Paul was it because they shared a similar background.  He was wrong.  I imagine it was also a case of no matter who Axl brought in, Slash and Duff would have been opposed because that's how bad the band dynamics had become.  Axl no doubt handled it badly, but Slash and Duff also weren't coming up with solutions leaving Axl to that - and then they wonder why shit hit the fan?  Slash and Duff should have been smarter about it - they weren't.

I think this is the answer... below

9 minutes ago, ludurigan said:

id say it doesnt really matter what he was looking for

id say the point here is how axl just pushed this person down everybody throaths and didnt take no for an answer

thats the same modus operandi that drove izzy away from GNR many years before etc etc etc

 

 

[double talkin jive mfkr]

On 10/6/2017 at 5:04 PM, thunderram said:

 

According to who? Biased Stradlin fans?? I agree. 

Funny that Izzy is praised for not selling out when it's obvious he was more than willing to for the right amount of "loot".

People see and hear what they want to.

ya exactly you're seeing it from a half ass nostalgia act point of view where 3 make more - than 5 making more together but maybe the three cry babies make like 10% less as a result 

i can get that 

Edited October 9, 2017 by double talkin jive mfkr

[DieselDaisy]

It all reads like something from one of Shakespeare's history plays haha, Richard II or Henry VI say - ''uneasy lies the head that wears a crown" . Doug Goldstein maybe cast as Warwick ''the Kingmaker''?

 

Edited October 9, 2017 by DieselDaisy
Further detail

[RONIN]

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

It all reads like something from one of Shakespeare's history plays haha, Richard II or Henry VI say - ''uneasy lies the head that wears a crown" . Doug Goldstein maybe cast as Warwick ''the Kingmaker''?

 

It seems more like Goldstein fancied himself a kingmaker and backed someone who was entirely unpredictable (Axl). At some point, the chickens came home to roost and Goldstein was unceremoniously dumped. He sure had a good run though.

 

... [Goldstein] had been climbing the stairs strategically. It was like a predator in an ambush. While no one has been more responsible for the dissolution of the Guns [than themselves], Doug Goldstein was a catalyst. His techniques to divide and conquer were a instrument for the arrival of our end, "wrote Slash in the eponymous 2007 book, published in Brazil by Editora Ediouro.

He was like an ambush predator. Though at the end of the day no one is more responsible for the demise of Guns N’ Roses  than Guns N’ Roses, Doug Goldstein was a catalyst ... from the start, (he) wanted to make a name for himself  in the industry and make money, and we were the perfect vehicle for that.

https://januarymagazine.com/biography/slash.html

METAL SLUDGE: So go through your last day with the Guns N’ Roses, the day you were fired. What happened?

Alan Niven: I was in the Meadowlands, in New Jersey, in 1991. I got a phone call in the production office. It was Axl. He very quietly said, “I can’t work with you anymore.” I said, “Sorry to hear that. I’ll be back in Los Angeles in two days, let’s go out and have dinner together and talk about it.” That was the last time I ever spoke to him. To this day, we’ve never spoken a word to each other.

METAL SLUDGE: The others went along with it?

Alan Niven: They had to. My understanding of the situation was that Axl stated to the band he would not go on tour if I remained as manager. Didn't give the others much of a choice there, did he?... By this point, Axl was kind of taking over. Let’s look at the first thing he did once I left: He had everyone else in the band sign the name over to him. It was a control move between Axl and Doug Goldstein. They both knew I would never stand for anything like that. Axl never even brought it up when I was the manager because he knew what I would tell him to do with it.

METAL SLUDGE: So what are you saying? Axl and Doug Goldstein had a secret alliance?

Alan Niven: That sounds very accurate.

METAL SLUDGE: Wow.

Alan Niven: I think that both Axl and Goldstein were, at that time, both controlling and greedy. Axl complained all the time that Steven Adler got a percentage of composing royalties. I had recommended that the band have a share-and-share-alike approach to such income -- as did Van Halen, Great White, and others – because my observation was that the primary factors that destroyed bands were women and arguing over differential splits of income, especially mechanical royalties. Hence, I would recommend equal sharing of royalties -- and not women!

In any case with GNR, Axl got more than anyone else, and Adler got less. The other three got the same: less than Axl and more than Adler. Ultimately, the fracture between Axl and Adler was exacerbated by the two factors that always rupture bands -- money and a woman.

Edited October 9, 2017 by RONIN

[DieselDaisy]

If the break-up is the history plays, then the Nugnr era would be A Comedy of Errors.