The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[SoulMonster]

5 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

To be quite honest @Len Cnut, that story she told you was a little misguided imo. While I also wouldn't encourage anyone to get any sort of satanic tattoos, I wouldn't condemn anyone to hell for having them either. Why? As I said earlier, there is time to repent as long as you are still alive. Even if it doesnt happen until your death bed. I wouldn't recommend waiting that long, but some people just seem to "have to." 

Do I think God might have some choice words for you in regards to such a tattoo? Yes. But if you repent and are genuine, he very well might show you mercy. Besides it is not "our" (humanity's) place to condemn ANYONE to hell. That is NOT for us to decide. We can say "that's a sin" and discourage the sin. But we should NOT say "if you do THAT you will go to hell." That is not our place.

Maybe she just has a stronger relationship with Jesus than what you do, and knows these things?

[Iron MikeyJ]

4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

That's just cruel.

What do you think about my theory that Jesus and Satan have a "good cop/bad cop" understanding just to make Jesus appear unblemished and "good" and "great". Obviously they are in league and have just agreed upon how to divide the labor between themselves. Isn't even Satan Jesus' brother or something?

No, they are not "in league" or brothers. The road you are going down is actually pretty deep theology. I will go there for you if you would like. But again, it's rather deep Catholic theology, a lot of which my protestant (and anabaptist) friends (I separated it for you Soon), will not agree with me. When discussing things with you lot, I would rather present a UNITED Christian front, not bicker between ourselves. 

Having said that, I WILL discuss this if you really want to know. The theology regarding these topics has been discussed and debated within the Catholic Church for 2,000 years. Not to mention Saints, mystics, personal Revalations, and many other insights HAVE been revealed in those 2,000 years. So basically what I'm saying is, I believe it to be 1000% true, even if my fellow Christian's disagree. It is all inline with Catholic teaching.

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

No, they are not "in league" or brothers. The road you are going down is actually pretty deep theology. I will go there for you if you would like. But again, it's rather deep Catholic theology, a lot of which my protestant (and anabaptist) friends (I separated it for you Soon), will not agree with me. When discussing things with you lot, I would rather present a UNITED Christian front, not bicker between ourselves. 

Having said that, I WILL discuss this if you really want to know. The theology regarding these topics has been discussed and debated within the Catholic Church for 2,000 years. Not to mention Saints, mystics, personal Revalations, and many other insights HAVE been revealed in those 2,000 years. So basically what I'm saying is, I believe it to be 1000% true, even if my fellow Christian's disagree. It is all inline with Catholic teaching.

Yes, I would like to know. God has created everything, right, Satan included, so obviously Satan was intentionally designed for the fantastic purpose of being the "bad guy" and allow Jesus to be the unspoiled "good guy". The whole set-up doesn't work without the dualism between these two guys. 

Again, the obvious parallel to me is negotiations for deals that is supposed to be long-term and involve a sustained relationship between the parties. To not contaminate the relation between the parties, you hire an outside guy to say and do the things that needs to be said but which could harm the relationship. That's Satan for you. And such outside consultants are often lawyers, so it makes sense on many levels.

Edited November 14, 2018 by SoulMonster

[Len Cnut]

12 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

To be quite honest @Len Cnut, that story she told you was a little misguided imo. While I also wouldn't encourage anyone to get any sort of satanic tattoos, I wouldn't condemn anyone to hell for having them either. Why? As I said earlier, there is time to repent as long as you are still alive. Even if it doesnt happen until your death bed. I wouldn't recommend waiting that long, but some people just seem to "have to." 

Do I think God might have some choice words for you in regards to such a tattoo? Yes. But if you repent and are genuine, he very well might show you mercy. Besides it is not "our" (humanity's) place to condemn ANYONE to hell. That is NOT for us to decide. We can say "that's a sin" and discourage the sin. But we should NOT say "if you do THAT you will go to hell." That is not our place.

You’ve certainly changed your tune in recent weeks fella.

[Iron MikeyJ]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Maybe she just has a stronger relationship with Jesus than what you do, and knows these things?

Perhaps, I suppose. But I would also point out that we (Christians) should always be of charitable mind and actions. Which imo, as Len described it, was not as charitable as she could have been. I would also point out that Jesus ate with the tax collectors and sinners. When the pharacies questioned him about this, he pointed out that (I'm paraphrasing here) that he did not come for the righteous, he came for the sinners. 

That's part of the reason why I engage in these conversations with you guys. I could talk for hours about this stuff with people at my church (and I do). But I also need to talk with those that might need to hear it a little more. Even when facing persecution. Which Jesus also spoke of that as well.

[Len Cnut]

She didn’t personally stand up and proclaim that I was going to hell   She was more like concerned about the eventualities that she believed would follow.

Just now, Iron MikeyJ said:

Thank you. As I've said earlier, I'm in a constant state of change lately. 😉🙏

Sort of like science then?

[Iron MikeyJ]

2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

You’ve certainly changed your tune in recent weeks fella.

Thank you. As I've said earlier, I'm in a constant state of change lately. 😉🙏

[Iron MikeyJ]

Ok please hold further questions until I respond to Soul's question. It's going to be a rather long question.

[SoulMonster]

So refreshing to have a christian here who actually wants to respond to questions 

[soon]

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

So refreshing to have a christian here who actually wants to respond to questions 

As soon as actual Christian ideas were presented everyone went silent.

The new atheist mind seems more suited for fart jokes.

[Len Cnut]

8 minutes ago, soon said:

The new atheist mind seems more suited for fart jokes.

You rang?

[SoulMonster]

Just now, soon said:

As soon as actual Christian ideas were presented everyone went silent.

Why aren't Mikey's ideas "actual Christian ideas"?

[soon]

1 minute ago, Len Cnut said:

You rang?

hahaha

1 minute ago, SoulMonster said:

Why aren't Mikey's ideas "actual Christian ideas"?

Not what I meant, as you know. Ya shit disturber

[Len Cnut]

Quote

Not what I meant, as you know. Ya shit disturber

You wanna take that Soul, he just called you a shit disturber...a poo packer...an uphill gardener, I wouldn't have that if I was you Soul!

[SoulMonster]

Just now, soon said:

Not what I meant, as you know. Ya shit disturber

And with "actual Christian idea" you mean to reply by simply asking us to read portions of the bible whereas Mikey actually puts his neck out there by writing length replies inwhich he tries to make us see things from his perspective?

[soon]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

And with "actual Christian idea" you mean to reply by simply asking us to read portions of the bible whereas Mikey actually puts his neck out there by writing length replies inwhich he tries to make us see things from his perspective?

no

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

You wanna take that Soul, he just called you a shit disturber...a poo packer...an uphill gardener, I wouldn't have that if I was you Soul!

Well, he kinda referred to himself and Mikey as "shit" so I will just let it pass 

Edited November 14, 2018 by SoulMonster

[Len Cnut]

10 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

And with "actual Christian idea" you mean to reply by simply asking us to read portions of the bible whereas Mikey actually puts his neck out there by writing length replies inwhich he tries to make us see things from his perspective?

And then you take the piss out of him  

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, soon said:

no

Oh, because that's what seemed most obvious to me.

[Iron MikeyJ]

Ok... For starters, you have to wrap your head around the idea that God exists outside of time. He is at creation right now and he is also at the 2nd coming right now. He has seen it all, he already knows the outcome. Which I know you dont believe in the creation story, but for sake of arguement just bare with me. The Angels were created before mankind, and they also have free will, just like humanity. So when God created Lucifer, Adam and Eve he did know they would fall. But he also gave them the opportunity to do the right thing. It was not his will for them to fall, it was of their own doing. When God created the garden of Eden, he created for all of humanity to live in perfect bliss with God. It was of humanities fall that led to the world we live in now. 

Regarding Lucifer, he was the highest Angel God had ever created. Most dont realize there arr essentially 3 ranks of Angels (Cherubim, Archangles, and guardian angels). The Cheribum and Seraphim are the highest rank, they are the ones that are in the choirs that are spoken of in Revalations. Which Lucifer was the highest of them all. When he was created, he was essentially Gods greatest creation (at that point). Having said that, Lucifer does NOT exist outside of time, only God does. So he is essentially stuck running the same rat race as the rest of us.

Jesus, because he is God as well, as well as the holy spirit, existed before the Angels. But he was in spirit form, not "man" form that we came to know. So even though he existed, and Lucifer was aware of his existence, he wouldn't recognize the "man" form, hence the encounters spoken of in the bible. Mary was also created around this time, she was and is the most perfect human ever created. So Lucifer was also aware of her existance, although before his fall, he was "greater" than her. She was a "lesser" creation at this time. 

Mankind was created in the image and likeness of God (spirit form for heaven, and human form in the likeness of Christ and Mary). Although the human form came later, we are only talking spirit form right now. Humanity was created to love and serve Christ. God the Father doesnt "need" us. Jesus doesnt "need" us either, but he IS our Lord and master, that's why our human form is in his likeness. 

After Mary was created in heaven, God was pleased with her, and took favor upon her. Even though she wasnt his "greatest" creation (that would still be Lucifer, Jesus isnt a creature). She was and is the MOST humble, human ever created, most obedient to God (because remember Jesus IS God, and isnt a creation, I'm only talking creatures here). Lucifer (because he knew he was the "greatest" at this time, was boastful and prideful. Mary was neither of those. So God took favor upon her. This did NOT sit well with Lucifer. 

Lucifer's ego couldn't accept a "lesser" creature being favored over him. To protest this "injustice" from Lucifer's perspective, he fell. Which on a side note, the Archangel Michael was the one to cast Lucifer out of heaven, again he was a LESSER creature. Which again was a tremendous blow to Lucifers ego. 

Due to Lucifers fall, God decreed that "The woman shall crush the head of the serpent" spoken of in Genesis. Which Lucifer is aware of this, and as a result HATES mankind, and women even more so. He knows that a woman would bring fourth his demise (because she would bring Christ into this world, although he didnt know that's HOW it was suppose to happen, he just knew the "woman" was to play an important role)Because of the love for God that Mary had shown, and to give Jesus a "people" to reign over essentially, mankind was created. 

In his divine wisdom, God created Adam and Eve as the first "humans". I say that with quotations because they might have NOT been the first cavemen or first anchient ancestors, they were just the first to have intelligence and reason. That's why we (Catholics dont reject evolution), but that's a different topic all together. Anyways... Some have stated that Adam and Eve were actually created in the direct image of Jesus and Mary. While Lucifer probably didnt completely recognize them per say, he would have sensed their "familiarity." Then what happened? Lucifer went to the WOMAN, not the man. Why? For two reasons, one if Adam was Christ, he knew he wouldn't fall. For two, he knew that woman would "crush his head." So he wanted to make the woman fall, in order to destroy her essentially. Because remember he HATES her. So when he got Eve to fall, he thought he had "won" essentially. Then God showed up, and the rest is in Genesis. While this WAS the fall of man, it was NOT the fall of the angels, that had already happened. But again, God KNEW this would happen, that's one of the reasons Jesus and Mary were NOT the first "humans." Also Adam and Eve had the ability to deny Lucifer and NOT fall. It was their choice, God ALWAYS gives us that choice. It a misunderstanding that Lucifer hates God. Lucifer HATES humanity, that's why he is always trying to get us sin (fall). He is angry with God, yes. But he fears God, and he knows he can't defeat God. That's why he attacks the Jewish people so much (Holocaust and even the recent attack), because Lucifer knows they play a HUGE role in the 2nd coming (Lucifers defeat), and he is trying to delay or prevent that. But he knows he cant defeat God, just delay. 

God brought Mary into the world in the most humble of origins, and Lucifer was pretty much unaware of her existance. Which as everyone knows, she brought fourth Christ, which signals the beginning of the end for Lucifer. Lucifer could tempt Mary in all the same manners that the rest of us get tempted, but she was able to resist all forms of sin. Hence why the Angel Gabriel said Hail Mary, FULL of Grace." While yes she was brought into the world with original sin, just like the rest of us. That was the ONLY sin she ever experienced. It could be argued that she didnt even have that, because as I said before, she was perfect essentially. Which she HAD to be, in order to be the perfect vessel for Christ (God). Which this is one aspect Catholics and Protestants disagree about. But the truth is, God leaves us when we sin. So the vessel of God has to be FREE of sin, in order to be able to receive Christ in such a manner. So even if Mary DID have original sin, it was washed away (like a baptism) when she recieved the vessel of Christ. Those in heaven are completely free of sin, God is completely free of sin, Mary HAD to be as well in order to receive Christ. It's a rather blasphemous insult when people say she was a "sinner" like everyone else. It doesnt hold weight from a theological stand point. Plus the angel said "Full of Grace." Not partially full, or somewhat full, etc. Plus she is also spoken of rather highly in Revalations, but that's a different topic. 

When Lucifer tempted Jesus after the baptism, that was the FIRST time Lucifer knew Christ had appeared. Or he knew it "might" be him. That's why he had to try and get him to fall, he needed to be sure. No creature (including possibly Mary) could have resisted such temptations that Lucifer offered to Christ. Only the incarnated God could resist those temptations. Up until that point, Lucifer knew Jesus was coming, but didnt know when or how. Mary came to the world without his knowing. Then Jesus came through her obviously. God chose them for humble, simple origins, for many reasons, one of which is to value humility. Adam and Eve could not have such humble origins, because they were the first. The first of ANYTHING could hardly be considered humble. Plus Mary and infant Jesus needed to come into the world without Lucifer knowing. Again, it was all a part of Gods plan. 

Which that brings me to the obvious question, "Why doesnt God just kill Lucifer and be done with him?" For one, he has, it's the 2nd coming. We just are not there yet. For two, it's all about LOVE. God wants us to LOVE him, to choose him through love, by our own free will. If we do so out of fear or because we have to, that's hardly love. Think about it like this, you choose to be married to the person you are married to, that's love. If you do so because you have to or are forced to, that's not love. I'm not saying God "needs" our love, because he doesnt. But I DO think love plays an important part in the "grand scheme" that we are a little blind to. So when we freely choose God, we do so out of love. That's what he wants. So when we talk about greed, hatred, etc those are NOT from love. Therefore they are not of God. That is also why Lucifer doesnt need worship. He has used it as a tool to get people to fall, but he doesnt need it. All he wants to do is for people to sin, for their own destruction. It's not to "replace" God, he knows he cant. He will use whatever tools he can to get mankind to sin, in order to prove how inferior we are to him. Whether that is actual Satan worship, greed, or just plain in difference towards God. Those are all Satanic "tricks." 

I know this had a lot of Mary talk in it, but that's because she IS an important part of Gods plan. In many ways her story is directly related to Lucifer's. That is why us Catholics hold her in such high regard. She is NOT God, she is a creature just like the rest of us. But she was quite possibly the first "human" created in heaven. She has also referred to herself (from divine revelation to MANY Catholics throughout the centuries) as "The daughter of the Father, the Mother of the Son, and spouse of the Holy Spirit." She also has incredible power against the forces of Evil. I can personally attest to the power of the Rosary or Hail Mary prayer when encountering demonic presences. 

Mary is also the Ark of the New Convent. Which God established MANY convents with man throughout the ages. She also reigns as the Queen of Angles and the Queen of Heaven (the heaven that human souls go to, there multiple levels of heaven). Yes she reigns as Queen of heaven along side as her Son Jesus Christ does (again we are HIS servants). Which in anchient Jewish traditions, the Son would claim the throne, even if his mother was still alive. But she would retain the title of Queen for the rest of her life. The wife of the King wouldn't become Queen until the original Queen had died. So this VERY much is inline with Jewish traditions. Which Christ's spouse is the church. Which I could go on and on about how Mary is the Ark of the New Convent, etc. But I think you get the point. 

I told you this is very deep theological thoughts. I know many of you wont agree with this, and I respect that. All I ask is for you to be respectful. I was asked, so I responded. 

 

Genesis quotes

And the Lord God said to the serpent: Because thou hast done this thing, thou art cursed among all cattle, and beasts of the earth: upon thy breast shalt thou go, and earth shalt thou eat all the days of thy life. [15] I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.

Edited November 14, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ

[SoulMonster]

Thanks, Mikey, I really appreciate it.

Surely God's wisdom would have allowed him to foresee that Satan -- even if he has this thing you christians call "free will" -- would do bad things? So it must have been part of God's plan, ergo does my bad cop/good cop theory still stand.

[Len Cnut]

The concept of God is not really meant to be truly understood by humans, its part of what the leap of faith, the infinite doesn’t really bear scrutiny because we think in finite terms, beginnings, middles and ends.  To be all seeing, all knowing, all powerful.  God doesn’t think, he doesn’t even have a will in the human sense, God is never ending, he is everywhere, even our ability to describe him fails us, when he is called all-seeing its even still kind of a misnomer...does God need to see?  Or does he just know?  And if he just knows is knowledge as we would understand the notion even an applicable term?  

[Iron MikeyJ]

24 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Thanks, Mikey, I really appreciate it.

Surely God's wisdom would have allowed him to foresee that Satan -- even if he has this thing you christians call "free will" -- would do bad things? So it must have been part of God's plan, ergo does my bad cop/good cop theory still stand.

In a certain sense, I suppose it COULD be viewed that way. But Lucifer wasnt created in order to fall or for the "bad cop" role. He was created to do the will of God, in a positive sense, not as a evil doer. He chose to fall, because of his own ego. Which is of course a sin unto itself. Which again, his whole purpose is the destruction of mankind, (or as many as he can get) he hates us. God doesnt Will him to do such things, quite opposite really. But I suppose if you want to view it more as a "Good Cop/ Bad Cop" dynamic, I suppose you could. I wouldn't recommend that though. 

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

In a certain sense, I suppose it COULD be viewed that way. But Lucifer wasnt created in order to fall or for the "bad cop" role. He was created to do the will of God, in a positive sense, not as a evil doer.

Exactly! God doesn't see Satan's work as "evil". "Good" and "evil" are human concepts. God transcends human morals. To God, Jesus and Satan have complementary but equally important roles in helping humans do the right thing, which is to please God by following his commands. Naturally, God knew Satan would take up the role he did, when he created him, indeed God created him for that very purpose, because otherwise God's abilities wouldn't be infinite. Otherwise God wouldn't be perfect. Otherwise Satan would be acting outside of God's plan. Basically outdoing God. So it was all part of God's plan all along. Jesus is no more "good" than Satan, nor is Satan more "evil" than Jesus. They are just aspects of God's personality, personifications of God. They just play their choreographed parts. Without Satan, Jesus would fail at guiding humans; and without Jesus, Satan would dominate. Without them both, humans could live without bothering with God, the link would be broken. And without God we'd be free. 

[Iron MikeyJ]

36 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

The concept of God is not really meant to be truly understood by humans, its part of what the leap of faith, the infinite doesn’t really bear scrutiny because we think in finite terms, beginnings, middles and ends.  To be all seeing, all knowing, all powerful.  God doesn’t think, he doesn’t even have a will in the human sense, God is never ending, he is everywhere, even our ability to describe him fails us, when he is called all-seeing its even still kind of a misnomer...does God need to see?  Or does he just know?  And if he just knows is knowledge as we would understand the notion even an applicable term?  

You are correct, we cant fathom the Father at all!!! I've read works from people (Catholic mystics) that had encounters with the Father, and he is just SO far beyond human understanding. 

One description that comes to mind is as follows; the way we recieve and give information is very linear, one thought followed by another thought, followed by another, etc. The Father on the other hand gives information in an "all at once" type of dynamic. It's just so far beyond the way humans perceive. Same goes for Angels like I said before, they are superior beings. As such they are smarter, wiser, and have a much higher field of perception. But even them FAIL in comparision to the Father. 

On a side note, as far as "outside of time goes." One of the reasons why we Catholics have cruicfixs as opposed to just crosses (there are other reasons, but this is one of them), is because Jesus can see us from the cross at this moment. It helps us meditate and put our thoughts on the actual cruifiction. Does Jesus NEED us from the cross? No. But he can see us being faithful to him 2,000 years later. So when we pray in front of a cruicfixs or meditate upon that image, in a small, miniscule way, we are LITERALLY showing him comfort on the cross RIGHT NOW. Again, he doesn't "need" it no. But it's a way to honor him and show appreciation to him, while he was on the cross. Because not only could he see the state of humanity at the time of the cruifiction, but he could also see everyone one of us from that point forward until the end of time. 

As far as seeing goes, pondering the mystery and power of the Father is just so incocievable. So I cant really answer your questions. The most powerful descriptions on the Father I have ever heard came from the mystic Nun that wrote the book "Mystical City of God." Which I HIGHLY recommend that book to EVERYONE. It's not more important than the bible by any stretch, no. But she gave such vivid descriptions, and had amazing insight. The ways she described the Father made the hair on my arms stand up. Enoch in the Book of Enoch also has quite a good description of what it's like to be in the presence of the Father. 

Which on a side note, Revalations, Enoch, and Mystical City of God all describe (in unison I may add), the City of God in all of its glory.