The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[soon]

3 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Catholics (at least good ones) shouldn't be overly worried about the world of men. Empires come and go, etc. Having said that, empires CAN be inherently good or evil (Nazis for example were clearly NOT good). But I would say you would be hard pressed to find a "good" empire. Just a bunch of Grey ones imo. 

As for the Vatican or the Pope, I've spoken about that in an earlier post. The Catholic Chirch IS not the Vatican, it is NOT the Pope, it is NOT the bishops, it is NOT your local priest. The Catholic Church is layiety, and sometimes we have to defend the church from some of those I just mentioned, unfortunately.

He hasn't even read my post.

 

[SoulMonster]

4 minutes ago, soon said:

He hasn't even read my post.

 

I think Mikey's views on empires come off as down-to-earth whereas yours is a bit paranoid.  

[soon]

Just now, SoulMonster said:

I think Mikey's views on empires come off as down-to-earth whereas yours is a bit paranoid.  

I didnt present my view on Empire.

[SoulMonster]

1 minute ago, soon said:

I didnt present my view on Empire.

Okay, Brian Zahnd's views on empires come off as a bit paranoid 

[Iron MikeyJ]

41 minutes ago, OmarBradley said:

Either this deity is all knowing, or they aren't. It can't be both. When reading your long post, I had the exact same thought as SM. 

God is all knowing you say. He knows Outcomes A, B, and C are possible, but he doesn't know which will occur? That means he's not all knowing. 

Another question, why is a being that "exists outside of time" gendered? God is a "he." Does he have a penis? I did some quick Googling and found this:

Alright, so we at least know god has a face. And that he's a total badass who kills anyone who sees it. 

I have heard this as well. The "god voice" people hear is demonstrably biochemically induced.

Can you expand on the bold text? Piqued my curiosity.

Societal structure gives humanity morality. I'd like to believe there is a tiny bit of innate morality too, but that's difficult to prove. But the bible is just part of said structure. If your only and/or chief source of morality is the Bible, that is incredibly problematic. Moral and immoral shouldn't need religious support in their definitions.

 

I dont want to turn this into a politically charged discussion (that wont be fruitful for anyone imo). I'll just say that when man passes laws that are in violation of Gods laws, we have to ask ourselves "what master will you follow?" I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty, for one (like I just said) and for two, I'm actually about to do our weekly bible study. So I'm gonna have to table this discussion until later.

[SoulMonster]

2 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I dont want to turn this into a politically charged discussion (that wont be fruitful for anyone imo). I'll just say that when man passes laws that are in violation of Gods laws, we have to ask ourselves "what master will you follow?" I'm not going to get into the nitty gritty, for one (like I just said) and for two, I'm actually about to do our weekly bible study. So I'm gonna have to table this discussion until later.

Hey, bring up our new theory on Jesus and Satan basically tag-teaming to lead people to God! We need to see Satan in a new light. He is playing the part he has received, a part of God's plan.

[soon]

11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Okay, Brian Zahnd's views on empires come off as a bit paranoid 

The Scripture is my interest. Your interest is attempts at humour. That's fine.

[Iron MikeyJ]

Satan doesnt bring you to God though, he takes you away from him. Hell is for the poor souls that live in eternity WITHOUT God. 

Imagine everyone you know and love feasting at a banquet, with all of your favorite foods, yet you can only watch, not participate. At first you would bargain for a chance to come. Then after a while, you will beg for just a bite. Then for just a crumb. Then after you come to terms with not being able to go, or even get a crumb, you will start to resent those that ARE at the banquet. Then you will HATE them for getting to eat all this food you cant have. So the love you once had for these people will slowly turn into hate. 

Hell is kinda like that, but MUCH worse for sure. Satan takes you FROM God, he doesnt bring you to him. 

Gotta go though 👍

[Whiskey Rose]

Thanks @Iron MikeyJ, interesting and informative as always. 

 

[SoulMonster]

Just now, Iron MikeyJ said:

Satan doesnt bring you to God though, he takes you away from him. 

Surely many people turn to God because they are scared of Satan? They abide God's rules because they fear damnation? Without Satan people would be morally adrift? Don't you agree? You can't just have the good cop, you need the bad cop, too. Otherwise no meaningful lasting relation can be made across the negotiating table. 

3 minutes ago, soon said:

The Scripture is my interest. Your interest is attempts at humour. That's fine.

How does your views on Empire differ from Zahnd's? 

[Ace Nova]

53 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Hey, bring up our new theory on Jesus and Satan basically tag-teaming to lead people to God! We need to see Satan in a new light. He is playing the part he has received, a part of God's plan.

Not sure how that would be a "new" theory.   God and Satan are opposite ends of the spectrum but in the book of Job they essentially already did what you're inferring here.  Satan went to God and said that he could force Job to sin against God.  God did not believe Satan so he basically gave Satan permission to torment Job, in order to show that Job would not sin against God no matter how much Satan tormented him.

 

And no, the word "Satan" does not mean "Empire" in the book of Job.

 

 

 

 

[soon]

7 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Not sure how that would be a "new" theory.   God and Satan are opposite ends of the spectrum but in the book of Job they essentially already did what you're inferring here.  Satan went to God and said that he could force Job to sin against God.  God did not believe Satan so he basically gave Satan permission to torment Job, in order to show that Job would not sin against God no matter how much Satan tormented him.

 

And no, the word "Satan" does not mean "Empire" in the book of Job.

 

 

 

 

Whats the Liviathan in Job all about?

[SoulMonster]

11 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Not sure how that would be a "new" theory.   God and Satan are opposite ends of the spectrum but in the book of Job they essentially already did what you're inferring here.  Satan went to God and said that he could force Job to sin against God.  God did not believe Satan so he basically gave Satan permission to torment Job, in order to show that Job would not sin against God no matter how much Satan tormented him.

Exactly! He is part of God's plan. He serves a purpose. He is not an adversary to God. He is the polar opposite of Jesus, true, but without Satan, Jesus would be impotent. You need the darkness to illuminate the light. Just as Jesus is an aspect of God, so is Satan. They are part of the whole. Working together to turn us towards Him. Without Satan, Jesus would be unappealing. Without Satan, there would be no point in Jesus. Without "bad", nothing can appear to be "good". And it can only be this way, because the alternative would be that Satan exists outside of God's plan, that he acts according to his own visions, and not His. Which means that God is imperfect. 

So maybe we should have some sympathy for Satan? For playing the bad guy? He's been typecast into that role, and plays it damn well. But where's the gratitude from us? Why do we so willingly embrace the "good" aspect of God's nature and not the "bad"? Who are we to questions His infinite wisdom in presenting us with the duality of Jesus/Satan? Why do we insist on measuring God against our flawed ideals? With our flawed ruler? That is blasphemous. 

 

[Iron MikeyJ]

37 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Exactly! He is part of God's plan. He serves a purpose. He is not an adversary to God. He is the polar opposite of Jesus, true, but without Satan, Jesus would be impotent. You need the darkness to illuminate the light. Just as Jesus is an aspect of God, so is Satan. They are part of the whole. Working together to turn us towards Him. Without Satan, Jesus would be unappealing. Without Satan, there would be no point in Jesus. Without "bad", nothing can appear to be "good". And it can only be this way, because the alternative would be that Satan exists outside of God's plan, that he acts according to his own visions, and not His. Which means that God is imperfect. 

So maybe we should have some sympathy for Satan? For playing the bad guy? He's been typecast into that role, and plays it damn well. But where's the gratitude from us? Why do we so willingly embrace the "good" aspect of God's nature and not the "bad"? Who are we to questions His infinite wisdom in presenting us with the duality of Jesus/Satan? Why do we insist on measuring God against our flawed ideals? With our flawed ruler? That is blasphemous. 

 

Sympathy for the devil huh? Sounds familiar...

Satan's reign isnt for forever though. He IS the "Prince of this world" though. I would advise against backing that horse though...

[Dazey]

1 hour ago, Kasanova King said:

Not sure how that would be a "new" theory.   God and Satan are opposite ends of the spectrum but in the book of Job they essentially already did what you're inferring here.  Satan went to God and said that he could force Job to sin against God.  God did not believe Satan so he basically gave Satan permission to torment Job, in order to show that Job would not sin against God no matter how much Satan tormented him.

Why was god acting like such a dick?

[Ace Nova]

4 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Exactly! He is part of God's plan. He serves a purpose. He is not an adversary to God. He is the polar opposite of Jesus, true, but without Satan, Jesus would be impotent. You need the darkness to illuminate the light. Just as Jesus is an aspect of God, so is Satan. They are part of the whole. Working together to turn us towards Him. Without Satan, Jesus would be unappealing. Without Satan, there would be no point in Jesus. Without "bad", nothing can appear to be "good". And it can only be this way, because the alternative would be that Satan exists outside of God's plan, that he acts according to his own visions, and not His. Which means that God is imperfect. 

So maybe we should have some sympathy for Satan? For playing the bad guy? He's been typecast into that role, and plays it damn well. But where's the gratitude from us? Why do we so willingly embrace the "good" aspect of God's nature and not the "bad"? Who are we to questions His infinite wisdom in presenting us with the duality of Jesus/Satan? Why do we insist on measuring God against our flawed ideals? With our flawed ruler? That is blasphemous. 

 

You can do what you wish.   Satan, though, by definition, is the enemy of Man.   You can sympathize all you want, he'll still be your enemy.

 

 

 

 

 

[SoulMonster]

8 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Sympathy for the devil huh? Sounds familiar...

Satan's reign isnt for forever though. He IS the "Prince of this world" though. I would advise against backing that horse though...

Why not? It is obviously just accepting one aspect of God. 

[SoulMonster]

4 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

You can do what you wish.   Satan, though, by definition, is the enemy of Man.   You can sympathize all you want, he'll still be your enemy.

He is obviously an aspect of God just like Jesus. Or are you saying Satan exists outside of God's plan? That God's wisdom is finite, that His reach is limited? If so, you are being blasphemous. 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Pope Starting To Suspect Bishops Getting Huge Erections During Meeting On Child Sexual Abuse Might Be Pedophiles

 

Source: https://www.theonion.com/pope-starting-to-suspect-bishops-getting-huge-erections-1828998652

Edited November 15, 2018 by SoulMonster

[wasted]

Statism is  the biggest religion of the 21st century. 

[Len Cnut]

15 hours ago, soon said:

"Satan" is presented as Empire from his first mention to his last. "Lucifer," in the most up to date translations appears 0 times. The word is more fully translated to "Day Star" "Son of Dawn" and "Morning Star." Oh, and check this out: Jesus is also referred to as Morning Star on three occasions! 2 Peter 1:19 Revelation 2:28 Revelation 22:16

The origin of Lucifer and Satan are one story - the briefest possible stories - which makes things far trickier then seemingly any position wants to view him as. In Christian texts we see authors use the word "Devil." It is the Devil who tempts Christ during the 40 days in the wilderness. One temptation is to offer Jesus Rulership of the Kingdoms - and at this point Jesus uses the word "Satan" (Empire).

The Israelites knew they would sleep in death until the Messiah would raise them back to life. The "purpose" of Satan wasn't to punish in after life, it was the spiritual aspect attributed to Empire in their lifetimes. Requiring a Spiritual-Political-Military Messiah to combat, again in their lives right here on planet Earth.

Here, in the first mention of "Lucifer" we can see that the Prophet Isaiah is in fact calling The King Of Babylon "Lucifer/Morning Star" 

Isaiah 14, NRSV:

Downfall of the King of Babylon

³ When the Lord has given you rest from your pain and turmoil and the hard service with which you were made to serve, ⁴ you will take up this taunt against the king of Babylon:

How the oppressor has ceased!
    How his insolence^[b] has ceased!
⁵ The Lord has broken the staff of the wicked,
    the scepter of rulers,
⁶ that struck down the peoples in wrath
    with unceasing blows,
that ruled the nations in anger
    with unrelenting persecution.
⁷ The whole earth is at rest and quiet;
    they break forth into singing.
⁸ The cypresses exult over you,
    the cedars of Lebanon, saying,
“Since you were laid low,
    no one comes to cut us down.”
⁹ Sheol beneath is stirred up
    to meet you when you come;
it rouses the shades to greet you,
    all who were leaders of the earth;
it raises from their thrones
    all who were kings of the nations.
¹⁰ All of them will speak
    and say to you:
“You too have become as weak as we!
    You have become like us!”
¹¹ Your pomp is brought down to Sheol,
    and the sound of your harps;
maggots are the bed beneath you,
    and worms are your covering.

¹² How you are fallen from heaven,
    O Day Star, son of Dawn!
How you are cut down to the ground,
    you who laid the nations low!
¹³ You said in your heart,
    “I will ascend to heaven;
I will raise my throne
    above the stars of God;
I will sit on the mount of assembly
    on the heights of Zaphon;^[c]
14 I will ascend to the tops of the clouds,
    I will make myself like the Most High.”
¹⁵ But you are brought down to Sheol,
    to the depths of the Pit.
¹⁶ Those who see you will stare at you,
    and ponder over you:
“Is this the man who made the earth tremble,
    who shook kingdoms,
¹⁷ who made the world like a desert
    and overthrew its cities,
    who would not let his prisoners go home?”
¹⁸ All the kings of the nations lie in glory,
    each in his own tomb;
¹⁹ but you are cast out, away from your grave,
    like loathsome carrion,^[d]
clothed with the dead, those pierced by the sword,
    who go down to the stones of the Pit,
    like a corpse trampled underfoot.
²⁰ You will not be joined with them in burial,
    because you have destroyed your land,
    you have killed your people.

May the descendants of evildoers
    nevermore be named!
²¹ Prepare slaughter for his sons
    because of the guilt of their father.^[e]
Let them never rise to possess the earth
    or cover the face of the world with cities.

²² I will rise up against them, says the Lord of hosts, and will cut off from Babylon name and remnant, offspring and posterity, says the Lord. ²³ And I will make it a possession of the hedgehog, and pools of water, and I will sweep it with the broom of destruction, says the Lord of hosts.

 

And the same in the second scripture often said to speak to Lucifer (because of reference to beauty along side reference to the Garden), Lucifer here is clearly presented as The King Of Tyre. Ezekiel 28:12-19, NRSV

This is a great, simple study aid for this subject in Isaiah https://brianzahnd.com/2012/01/satan-and-empire/

 

We know very little about the Devil. But we do know that Satan is Empire and Lucifer is used to mock to rulers of Empires for their ambitions to be like God. The Hebrew concept of the Liviathan (a sea monster representing an unknown but observed opposition to God) is probably a better tool in Hebrew Scripture to understand the Devil, rather then the concept of Satan or the subversive use of Morning Star.

 

 

 

 

[wasted]

You are more powerful than you think. The algorithm is getting to know me.  

[HOOSIER GUNZ]

al·go·rithm

/ˈalɡəˌriT͟Həm/

noun

a process or set of rules to be followed in calculations or other problem-solving operations, especially by a computer.

"a basic algorithm for division"

...thinking of artificial intelligence and how some country's in the United Nations have moved towards granting citizenship to robots, and how this could fit into the realm of religion and spirituality...

[soon]

10 minutes ago, HOOSIER GUNZ said:

al·go·rithm

/ˈalɡəˌriT͟Həm/

noun

a process or set of rules to be followed in calculations or other problem-solving operations, especially by a computer.

"a basic algorithm for division"

...thinking of artificial intelligence and how some country's in the United Nations have moved towards granting citizenship to robots, and how this could fit into the realm of religion and spirituality...

Interesting question. The book Weapons of Math Destruction by Cathy O'Neil is a great read.

I hope the robots know Christ so that I can talk to them about scripture

[Len Cnut]

15 minutes ago, soon said:

The book Weapons of Math Destruction by Cathy O'Neil is a great read.

 

Didn't she write The Killing of Tupac Shakur?

[Iron MikeyJ]

Are there any other topics that anyone might want my take on?