soon Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: What would those "literary and rhetorical aspects" be, and if you and soon are aware of those, isn't it a bit arrogant to not think experts on ancient literature would be aware of them, too? Im confused why you are suggesting that i don't think experts would know that? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Just now, soon said: Im confused why you are suggesting that i don't think experts would know that? Mike claims the bible can't be studied using normal historical-scientific methods, because, apparently, the bible contains "literary and rhetorical aspects" that prevent such studies. That is bullshit. Every expert on ancient history would be educated in this and account for uncertainties arriving from uncertain context, missing historical knowledge, not understood literary tricks, etc. It just means this research, like any research into the unknown, comes with certain uncertainties, known unknowns if you prefer. This is exactly the same for the bible as for any other ancient text. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: Mike claims the bible can't be studied using normal historical-scientific methods, because, apparently, the bible contains "literary and rhetorical aspects" that prevent such studies. That is bullshit. Every expert on ancient history would be educated in this and account for uncertainties arriving from uncertain context, missing historical knowledge, not understood literary tricks, etc. It just means this research, like any research into the unknown, comes with certain uncertainties, known unknowns if you prefer. This is exactly the same for the bible as for any other ancient text. Oh, thought you were referring to me. Its awesome to study scripture from all these angles. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, soon said: Oh, thought you were referring to me. Its awesome to study scripture from all these angles. Yeah, and your discussion with DieselDaisy in itself proves that the biblical books are not beyond studying. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 @Iron MikeyJ I havent read through your exchange with soul. But earlier in todays conversations I thought you had said that sometimes people get confused in their study of Scripture. I didn't notice you at that point saying Scripture cant be studied. Your claims about how sometimes its approached wrong indicates to me that you study and read scholarship on scripture. So, for clarity can I ask: Do you believe scripture can be studied? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Question for the atheists. And to avoid any confusion; I am asking purely out of curiosity. How much do y'all on this thread participate in Athesist identified organizations? Like Atheist Refugee support orgs, or Atheist International Aide/ Relief organizations for example. And what about Atheist outreach/education orgs? Or do you ever contribute to crowd funding for atheist writings, documentaries, speaking tours, etc? Or if you don't participate because you take issue with it, please share what the issues are? Again, I have no angle and am simply curious. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, soon said: Question for the atheists. And to avoid any confusion; I am asking purely out of curiosity. How much do y'all on this thread participate in Athesist identified organizations? Like Atheist Refugee support orgs, or Atheist International Aide/ Relief organizations for example. And what about Atheist outreach/education orgs? Or do you ever contribute to crowd funding for atheist writings, documentaries, speaking tours, etc? Or if you don't participate because you take issue with it, please share what the issues are? Again, I have no angle and am simply curious. Zip zero. The only thing I have in common with other atheists is that we don't believe in gods. That is hardly a foundation for organisations, in my opinion. What would we talk about? The non-existence of gods? Sounds boring. Similarly, I also wouldn't consider involving myself in groups for people who don't believe in unicorns. Again, hardly a basis for anything. I have been connected to a secular organisation for humanism, though, that promotes a humanistic world-view and provides an alternative to theistic and similar organisations, and also offers secular alternatives to weddings, funerals, etc. And I could also consider being part of something focused on anti-theism. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dazey Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 7 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Zip zero. The only thing I have in common with other atheists is that we don't believe in gods. Not true. You have one thing in common with atheists from London in that you also support Manchester United. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 3 minutes ago, Dazey said: Not true. You have one thing in common with atheists from London in that you also support Manchester United. Really? Speaking of which, I will be worshipping in the cathedral of dreams in a couple of weeks. Holy war against the dirty heathens from Liverpool. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 12 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Zip zero. The only thing I have in common with other atheists is that we don't believe in gods. That is hardly a foundation for organisations, in my opinion. What would we talk about? The non-existence of gods? Sounds boring. Similarly, I also wouldn't consider involving myself in groups for people who don't believe in unicorns. Again, hardly a basis for anything. I have been connected to a secular organisation for humanism, though, that promotes a humanistic world-view and provides an alternative to theistic and similar organisations, and also offers secular alternatives to weddings, funerals, etc. And I could also consider being part of something focused on anti-theism. Thanks for your response. And yes I agree that it is boring to talk about the non-existence of God j/k I would assume in a Refugee Support Organization you'd mainly discuss refugees? And I understand these atheist orgs to be exactly what you are saying you are open to: alternatives to theist orgs doing same work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 @DieselDaisy and anyone else, heres some possible scenarios about those who visited the tomb of Jesus on the morning of his resurrection. Its from the Halley's Bible Handbook (deluxe edition) 2007. Pic of entire page, but below is the various sections up closer and in caption (for peoples page loading ease) the following page: Spoiler Just a place to continue a conversation from... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 @soon and @SoulMonster, I never said scripture CAN'T be studied. As a matter of fact I ENCOURAGE people to do just that. I was commenting on something I've noticed that MANY atheists do (none in this thread that I'm aware of, I was speaking in general terms). They like to analyze scripture through a modern lens to find things that they feel are inconsistent with what we have learned through history. Which they then say "look history says this, the bible says that, I told you it was made up." Basically just looking for reasons to discredit it. Which that debate I posted yesterday, the Atheist in that video DID that very thing. That's all I was saying. As for SoulMonster directly, he's just trying to give me a taste of my own medicine from yesterday, which is fair. I'm just not really in the mood to debate THIS particular topic endlessly today. If he wants to read the scriptures in order to pick them apart, more power to him. At least he IS reading them, he might actually get something out of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 45 minutes ago, soon said: Thanks for your response. And yes I agree that it is boring to talk about the non-existence of God j/k I would assume in a Refugee Support Organization you'd mainly discuss refugees? And I understand these atheist orgs to be exactly what you are saying you are open to: alternatives to theist orgs doing same work. If I wanted to be part of a charitable organisation, like SOS Children Villages, which I have supported for a long time, I wouldn't seek out one that is atheistic. Atheism has nothing to do with charity. Atheism is just the absence of belief in gods. That combination would be weirdly contrived. If you want to do charity, why do it under the umbrella of atheism? I'd seek out a secular, charitable organisation. That makes sense. Then everybody could take part, theists and non-theists, focused together on charity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) 2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: If I wanted to be part of a charitable organisation, like SOS Children Villages, which I have supported for a long time, I wouldn't seek out one that is atheistic. Atheism has nothing to do with charity. Atheism is just the absence of belief in gods. That combination would be weirdly contrived. If you want to do charity, why do it under the umbrella of atheism? I'd seek out a secular, charitable organisation. That makes sense. Then everybody could take part, theists and non-theists, focused together on charity. Sure , thats a legit perspective. Just that these atheist orgs do exist - I wasnt asking based on my own assumptions, but based on their presence in the world. 3 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: @soon and @SoulMonster, I never said scripture CAN'T be studied. As a matter of fact I ENCOURAGE people to do just that. I was commenting on something I've noticed that MANY atheists do (none in this thread that I'm aware of, I was speaking in general terms). They like to analyze scripture through a modern lens to find things that they feel are inconsistent with what we have learned through history. Which they then say "look history says this, the bible says that, I told you it was made up." Basically just looking for reasons to discredit it. Which that debate I posted yesterday, the Atheist in that video DID that very thing. That's all I was saying. As for SoulMonster directly, he's just trying to give me a taste of my own medicine from yesterday, which is fair. I'm just not really in the mood to debate THIS particular topic endlessly today. If he wants to read the scriptures in order to pick them apart, more power to him. At least he IS reading them, he might actually get something out of it. Was just hoping to offer you a chance to clarify. I understand what you are saying. Edited February 23, 2018 by soon Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 (edited) Honestly when I read scripture I put myself in THOSE times in my head. I find it more rewarding. It then finds ways to relate to my life now. You know whst I mean Soon. 👍 Edited February 23, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 8 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: @soon and @SoulMonster, I never said scripture CAN'T be studied. As a matter of fact I ENCOURAGE people to do just that. I was commenting on something I've noticed that MANY atheists do (none in this thread that I'm aware of, I was speaking in general terms). Should I be outraged now that you actually gave an example of something no one here has done? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 Just now, SoulMonster said: Should I be outraged now that you actually gave an example of something no one here has done? If you like... But when I made that comment originally, I wasmt having a debate with you sir. Just posting my general thoughts on that particular subject. 👍 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 9 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: @soon and @SoulMonster, I never said scripture CAN'T be studied. As a matter of fact I ENCOURAGE people to do just that. I was commenting on something I've noticed that MANY atheists do (none in this thread that I'm aware of, I was speaking in general terms). They like to analyze scripture through a modern lens to find things that they feel are inconsistent with what we have learned through history. Which they then say "look history says this, the bible says that, I told you it was made up." Basically just looking for reasons to discredit it. Which that debate I posted yesterday, the Atheist in that video DID that very thing. That's all I was saying. Of course the bible is wrong on stuff. But that is only a working argument if you are debunking people who think the entire bible should be interpreted literally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 12 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: @soon and @SoulMonster, As for SoulMonster directly, he's just trying to give me a taste of my own medicine from yesterday, which is fair. I'm just not really in the mood to debate THIS particular topic endlessly today. If he wants to read the scriptures in order to pick them apart, more power to him. At least he IS reading them, he might actually get something out of it. Oh, I have read the bible. I don't typically use it when I argue with christians, though, they obviously cherry-pick to assemble their religion, which I in principle find better than an approach of interpreting it all literally. Besides, there are so many deeper arguments against christianity like the glaring absence of evidence, the problem of evil, the supposed goodness of the deity which is at odds with the creation, simple parsimony, outside theological influences, etc. It is quite surprising to me that such a jumble of contradictory beliefs and doctrines which makes so little sense has managed to become a world religion 17 minutes ago, soon said: Sure , thats a legit perspective. Just that these atheist orgs do exist - I wasnt asking based on my own assumptions, but based on their presence in the world. Oh, I know they exist, I just don't understand why About as pointless as Mensa. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 1 minute ago, SoulMonster said: Oh, I have read the bible. I don't typically use it when I argue with christians, though, they obviously cherry-pick to assemble their religion, which I in principle find better than an approach of interpreting it all literally. Besides, there are so many deeper arguments against christianity like the glaring absence of evidence, the problem of evil, the supposed goodness of the deity which is at odds with the creation, simple parsimony, outside theological influences, etc. It is quite surprising to me that such a jumble of contradictory beliefs and doctrines which makes so little sense has managed to become a world religion What aides and guidance did you utilize when you read it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 11 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said: If you like... But when I made that comment originally, I wasmt having a debate with you sir. Just posting my general thoughts on that particular subject. 👍 You do realize that I am making fun of the fact that you accused me of coming with an irrelevant example only yesterday? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoulMonster Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 1 minute ago, soon said: What aides and guidance did you utilize when you read it? Oh, this was many years ago. I wish I had had a guide when I read it, because parts flew over my head, but I did read history books covering the relevant time periods in parallel, to put things in context, and I did research particularly interesting parts. I probably should read it again with a secular guide. Well, we always have the Skeptic's Annotated Bible online Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
soon Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Oh, this was many years ago. I wish I had had a guide when I read it, because parts flew over my head, but I did read history books covering the relevant time periods in parallel, to put things in context, and I did research particularly interesting parts. I probably should read it again with a secular guide. Well, we always have the Skeptic's Annotated Bible online I think a re-read would be helpful. Never heard of that skeptics resource actually. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Iron MikeyJ Posted February 23, 2018 Share Posted February 23, 2018 25 minutes ago, SoulMonster said: Oh, I have read the bible. I don't typically use it when I argue with christians, though, they obviously cherry-pick to assemble their religion, which I in principle find better than an approach of interpreting it all literally. Besides, there are so many deeper arguments against christianity like the glaring absence of evidence, the problem of evil, the supposed goodness of the deity which is at odds with the creation, simple parsimony, outside theological influences, etc. It is quite surprising to me that such a jumble of contradictory beliefs and doctrines which makes so little sense has managed to become a world religion Now just to clarify, I'm not trying to start a debate with you, but can you clarify the things I highlighted for me? I might be able to give you a different perspective on these, if you are open to them? Just a friendly exchange of ideas, if we can leave the baggage at the door? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ace Nova Posted February 23, 2018 Author Share Posted February 23, 2018 20 hours ago, Oldest Goat said: Not me though, right? I see how it is. You're not an atheist...you're spiritual and you believe in some sort of higher power or that there is more to life than what we are in the flesh. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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