The Religion/Spirituality Thread

[Ace Nova]

2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

If I wanted to be part of a charitable organisation, like SOS Children Villages, which I have supported for a long time, I wouldn't seek out one that is atheistic. Atheism has nothing to do with charity. Atheism is just the absence of belief in gods. That combination would be weirdly contrived. If you want to do charity, why do it under the umbrella of atheism? I'd seek out a secular, charitable organisation. That makes sense. Then everybody could take part, theists and non-theists, focused together on charity.

I know you're an atheist but out of curiosity, have you ever had a "spiritual" moment?  Have you ever had a moment and wondered "hmm.....what if?"

[Dazey]

2 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

I know you're an atheist but out of curiosity, have you ever had a "spiritual" moment?  Have you ever had a moment and wondered "hmm.....what if?"

I once downed a shot of sambuca and a part of me almost left my body.  

 

*you were to blame. 

[Whiskey Rose]

17 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

You're not an atheist...you're spiritual and you believe in some sort of higher power or that there is more to life than what we are in the flesh.

This is what I was going to say! @Oldest Goat you seem very spiritual to me, just anti-organised religion. And I like the way you question, question, question everything, to get an honest answer and more understanding.

I think, like me, you have a 50/50 shot of going either up or down

[DieselDaisy]

3 hours ago, soon said:

@DieselDaisy and anyone else, heres some possible scenarios about those who visited the tomb of Jesus on the morning of his resurrection.  Its from the Halley's Bible Handbook (deluxe edition) 2007.

Pic of entire page, but below is the various sections up closer and in caption (for peoples page loading ease) the following page:

 

 

 

 

  Reveal hidden contents

 

Just a place to continue a conversation from...

It is a fair enough explanation that they would have gotten their Marys mixed up.

 

[DieselDaisy]

7 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

That's ok, I'm not asking you to agree with me. I'm also NOT downplaying it's historical importance. Honestly when I made my original post about the historical importance of the bible, I KNEW someone would bring up Homer. Which that's fair. I would personally rate it 2nd AFTER the bible. If you want to put it first, that's your thing. Regardless BOTH are extremely important and amazing historical texts from ancient times. Which that's what my point was in the beginning. People like to downplay the importance of the bible, but just from a historical point of view, it's quite amazing.

It is not so much ''historical'' importance, but that it is the very earliest stories of western civilisation. Homer's hymns are part of our cultural make-up. They're stories which other media such as painting, opera and latterly film have returned to time and time again throughout the ages. I'm not actually saying ''Homer is more important than The Bible''. I am saying that I couldn't possible judge whether one was more important than the other. How does one judge the importance of Homer and The Bible? Both the Hebraic and Graeco-Romano inheritance are the cornerstones of our civilization. I couldn't personally judge one over the other - I shouldn't need to!

[DieselDaisy]

6 hours ago, Len Cnut said:

I tried reading Illyad or whatever its called when I was a kid, couldn't make head nor tail of it!

It is probably not something you should read as a kid. Most English translations come with notes and things to help you along.

Just avoid the Brad Pitt film!

[DieselDaisy]

1 minute ago, Oldest Goat said:

I enjoyed this version

 

That looks like a fun film.

The problem with film adaptations they sometimes eclipse their source in your mind, even at a subconscious level. I have been watching a bunch of (OT) Biblical epics lately and as far as I'm concerned, Charlton Heston is Moses, Gregory Peck is King David and George Sanders was quite a lot of people as it happens. If I ever re-read the Bible I'll be reading it with these people in mind. ''Moses, I like you and your Ten Commandments but why did you then become president of the NRA?''

[SoulMonster]

8 hours ago, soon said:

I think a re-read would be helpful.

If I go back to reading about that time period, I will probably use the bible as well as other sources. If I decide to read religious writings to better understand theists, I will probably go for a book I haven't read, like the Qoran. The bible wasn't that good of a read. 

[SoulMonster]

8 hours ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

Now just to clarify, I'm not trying to start a debate with you, but can you clarify the things I highlighted for me? 

You are a christian and you want me to explain the problem of evil to you? This is a theological conundrum that has vexed chrisitians since christianity was sloppily invented. It deals with the paradox that how can an all-powerful benevolent deity have created a world that is so unjust and cruel? Why does he allow children to be born with horrible diseases? Why are small kids right now dying in gruesome accidents? Why is a father right now burying his kid who died from cancer? Either your god is not good, or not omnipotent. In either case, christianity is flawed. 

[SoulMonster]

7 hours ago, Kasanova King said:

I know you're an atheist but out of curiosity, have you ever had a "spiritual" moment?  Have you ever had a moment and wondered "hmm.....what if?"

I once had multiple orgasms while wasted. That was a profound spiritual event. 

Seriously, when I was a small kid I had a what if moment. I was sitting in our car listening to my mother explain how god can be everwhere aa all times, and I thought: what if this is just bullshit? What if god is just a human construct created to explain things for which we have no answers, provide comfort in our loneliness, make us believe the end is not endless? That was an epiphany. 

Besides that, no. I believe spiritual events are just your mind fucking with you. It is highly malleable. If you seek spiritual events, and have been conditioned for them, you can experience them. But they are all internally created. Like self-hypnosis. I find the fact that all evidence believers have for godly existence, are internal spiritual events, strong evidence that there are no gods. Where are the flaming bushes? Where are the angels descending from heaven? Where are the miracles? Why does your god never fix an amputee? 

[DieselDaisy]

3 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

If I go back to reading about that time period, I will probably use the bible as well as other sources. If I decide to read religious writings to better understand theists, I will probably go for a book I haven't read, like the Qoran. The bible wasn't that good of a read. 

Ruth and Esther are two of the greatest stories in world literature. Esther denouncing Haman at the feast; this is what inspired the Jewish festival Purim (lots). Portions of the Hebraic Bible are actually profoundly beautiful, inspirational, exciting - they can hold their own with what the Greeks were producing at a similar time is what I am saying. A pestilence creeping over the Egyptian city to kill the first-born sons - it does not get more epic than that. The Israelites had to put blood on their doors so that it would ''pass over'' the Children of Israel.

It is no coincidence that these stories are the basis of some of the greatest films in cinematic history.

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2018 by DieselDaisy

[SoulMonster]

3 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

Ruth and Esther are two of the greatest stories in world literature. Esther denouncing Haman at the feast; this is what inspired the Jewish festival Purim (lots). Portions of the Hebraic Bible are actually profoundly beautiful, inspirational, exciting - they can hold their own with what the Greeks were producing at a similar time is what I am saying. A pestilence creeping over the Egyptian city to kill the first-born sons - it does not get more epic than that. The Israelites had to put blood on their doors so that it would ''pass over'' the Children of Israel.

It is no coincidence that these stories are the basis of some of the greatest films in cinematic history.

Glad you enjoy it 

[Iron MikeyJ]

7 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

You are a christian and you want me to explain the problem of evil to you? This is a theological conundrum that has vexed chrisitians since christianity was sloppily invented. It deals with the paradox that how can an all-powerful benevolent deity have created a world that is so unjust and cruel? Why does he allow children to be born with horrible diseases? Why are small kids right now dying in gruesome accidents? Why is a father right now burying his kid who died from cancer? Either your god is not good, or not omnipotent. In either case, christianity is flawed. 

I was trying to have AN open dialogue with you. Never mind...

You can't put what is holy before swine.

Edited February 24, 2018 by Iron MikeyJ

[soon]

7 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

If I go back to reading about that time period, I will probably use the bible as well as other sources. If I decide to read religious writings to better understand theists, I will probably go for a book I haven't read, like the Qoran. The bible wasn't that good of a read. 

Just read the Gospels at least.  Being more accurate and having any sort of Christiological stance would make are conversation far more engaging.

[soon]

6 hours ago, Oldest Goat said:

@soon Which version of the Bible should I read? What is the best most all encompassing version, King James? (I'm not learning Hebrew.)

New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) Its both in contemporary english and is the most up to date, utilizing advances in hermeneutics (the philosophy of translation), archeology, anthropology, etc.  There are Scholarly translation but they arent meant to be a 'readers Bible.'  Plus New Revised Standard Version seems like it would sound magical spoken with a New Zealand accent  

Im not a fan of King James.  More then a handful of dubious hermeneutical choices.  Mostly that downplay revolt and support hierarchy.  I still have it and the New King James.

The NT is written in Greek (koine Greek which is no longer in use) with some words and/or passages in Aramaic which was the language Jesus spoke.  With the NRSV you're getting a very accurate translation.

[soon]

7 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

I once had multiple orgasms while wasted. That was a profound spiritual event. 

Seriously, when I was a small kid I had a what if moment. I was sitting in our car listening to my mother explain how god can be everwhere aa all times, and I thought: what if this is just bullshit? What if god is just a human construct created to explain things for which we have no answers, provide comfort in our loneliness, make us believe the end is not endless? That was an epiphany. 

Besides that, no. I believe spiritual events are just your mind fucking with you. It is highly malleable. If you seek spiritual events, and have been conditioned for them, you can experience them. But they are all internally created. Like self-hypnosis. I find the fact that all evidence believers have for godly existence, are internal spiritual events, strong evidence that there are no gods. Where are the flaming bushes? Where are the angels descending from heaven? Where are the miracles? Why does your god never fix an amputee? 

See this is where you having a grasp of scripture would be helpful.  You are referring to events from scripture and then saying 'why doesnt this happen any more?' But with in Scripture there are long periods - hundreds of years where these things dont happen.  So if you are going to reference scripture to make a point, then that would also answer your question about 'why not now?'

13 hours ago, DieselDaisy said:

It is a fair enough explanation that they would have gotten their Marys mixed up.

 

The 'Bunch of Mary's' Gospel Harmonization, so to speak

[SoulMonster]

30 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I was trying to have AN open dialogue with you. Never mind...

You can't put what is holy before swine.

You can't explain the problem of evil? 

30 minutes ago, soon said:

Just read the Gospels at least.  Being more accurate and having any sort of Christiological stance would make are conversation far more engaging.

And you get to read about Jesus dying four times! 

[soon]

2 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

 

And you get to read about Jesus dying four times! 

Rising too.  One learns lots about populism, the State and the dangers of hegemony.

[SoulMonster]

12 minutes ago, soon said:

See this is where you having a grasp of scripture would be helpful.  You are referring to events from scripture and then saying 'why doesnt this happen any more?' But with in Scripture there are long periods - hundreds of years where these things dont happen.  So if you are going to reference scripture to make a point, then that would also answer your question about 'why not now?'

What hundreds of years are mentioned in scripture where the christian god doesn't perform any visible miracles? 

1 minute ago, soon said:

Rising too.  One learns lots about populism, the State and the dangers of hegemony.

I felt the gospels were a bit redundant. 

[soon]

On February 23, 2018 at 8:50 AM, DieselDaisy said:

 

Only one of the Gospels mentions the fact that Antipas was in Jerusalem at the time, so there is a sort of extra trial interpolated between the Sanhedrin and Praetorium. This is curious.

 

I believe youre talking about Johns Gospel?  John 18 being the additional trial?

[Iron MikeyJ]

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You can't explain the problem of evil? 

I CAN, but I asked you to have AN open conversation where we leave our baggage at the door. You th en responded by attacking Christianity with your first sentence. That's hardly open... So I've lost any desire to clarify ANYTHING for you, because you are not OPEN to anything. You have your thoughts, and you WILL hold on to them at all costs. You my friend have closed yourself off to accepting ANY Christian points of view. 

To that I quote Jesus himself "You cant put what is Holy before swine."

Have a nice day, I have reached an impasse.

[soon]

3 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

What hundreds of years are mentioned in scripture where the christian god doesn't perform any visible miracles? 

I felt the gospels were a bit redundant. 

if you read four things telling the same story over and over one would think youd know it better

[SoulMonster]

15 minutes ago, Iron MikeyJ said:

I CAN, but I asked you to have AN open conversation where we leave our baggage at the door. You th en responded by attacking Christianity with your first sentence. That's hardly open... So I've lost any desire to clarify ANYTHING for you, because you are not OPEN to anything. You have your thoughts, and you WILL hold on to them at all costs. You my friend have closed yourself off to accepting ANY Christian points of view. 

To that I quote Jesus himself "You cant put what is Holy before swine."

Have a nice day, I have reached an impasse.

You asked me to clarify what I meant with 'the problem of evil' and I, slightly bemused this was new to a christian,  explained that is the unresolved paradox of how an alleged good, powerful god has created and maintain a world that can be terrible unjust and cruel where innocent kids die in agony every day. Again, you asked me. 

Apparently you have no answer to the paradox (or need some time to consult with catholicanswers.com and will come back to me). But don't act all insulted because I mention a paradox that much brighter christians than you have struggled with for centuries, when you specifically asked for clarification. 

And on the topic of the suffering of kids. I was just reading about my family. One of my wife's ancestors lost three small kids to tuberculosis within five days. Original Sin you say? God has a plan you say? Free will you say? Mysterious ways you say? The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh you say? Fuck. A deity that creates Mycobacterium tuberculosis and lets it loose on children is an unhinged psychopath that doesn't deserve anyone's worship or love. 

14 minutes ago, soon said:

if you read four things telling the same story over and over one would think youd know it better

Don't be condescending, if I say anything wrong just correct me. Then I learn and you do good. And you didn't answer my questions about god's hide and seek game across the centuries. 

Edited February 24, 2018 by SoulMonster

[soon]

4 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

 

Don't be condescending, if I say anything wrong just correct me. Then I learn and you do good. And you didn't answer my questions about god's hide and seek game across the centuries. 

You are often condescending.  You are always condescending as you try and reference scripture.  But almost with out fail you are incredible incorrect in your attempts to use scripture.  So when you stop mangling scripture to be condescending, I will stop pointing out how wrong your references are in a condescending way.   You even just celebrated getting to read about Jesus death.  I believe Im meeting you where you are at.  I have a sense of humour with your posts.  Would be nice if you could too.

I didnt see the question about the gaps. 

There is a 400 year gap in miracle and Prophecy between Malachi and Jesus.  There are other in the OT but Id have to refresh my memory.

[Iron MikeyJ]

47 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

You asked me to clarify what I meant with 'the problem of evil' and I, slightly bemused this was new to a christian,  explained that is the unresolved paradox of how an alleged good, powerful god has created and maintain a world that can be terrible unjust and cruel where innocent kids die in agony every day. Again, you asked me. 

Apparently you have no answer to the paradox (or need some time to consult with catholicanswers.com and will come back to me). But don't act all insulted because I mention a paradox that much brighter christians than you have struggled with for centuries, when you specifically asked for clarification. 

And on the topic of the suffering of kids. I was just reading about my family. One of my wife's ancestors lost three small kids to tuberculosis within five days. Original Sin you say? God has a plan you say? Free will you say? Mysterious ways you say? The Lord giveth and the Lord taketh you say? Fuck. A deity that creates Mycobacterium tuberculosis and lets it loose on children is an unhinged psychopath that doesn't deserve anyone's worship or love. 

Don't be condescending, if I say anything wrong just correct me. Then I learn and you do good. And you didn't answer my questions about god's hide and seek game across the centuries. 

I DID ask you, but you've been (as Soon just said) condescending. Which until THAT tone gets removed, we can't have an actual conversation.