meadsoap Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: This quote is from George Chin and he's talking about the show at the Deer Creek Music Center, Indiana, in May 1991. It appears that Axl was still on good terms with his family (at least superficially) at that point in time, which is kind of surprising, even more so if he had already told Zutaut that he was going to expose his stepfather for the monster he was. I think it's more likely that the interaction with Zutaut happened at some point later that year, but who knows. George Chin: "Indianapolis is where Axl and Izzy grew up. At this gig, Axl sent a stretch to collect his granny and family from Lafayette, to come to the gig. The driver had orders to bring back ice-cream and pizzas from this one store in Lafayette where Axl used to hang out when he was a kid, and after the show, Axl and his family had a real homely reunion. Axl's granny was an older female version of him. She knew all the words to all the Guns N' Roses songs and she sang along at the gig." What does Axl's stepdad have to do with that quote? It didn't say he invited him, or which family members he invited at all besides his grandmother. He can't spend time with his maternal grandmother if he's angry with a man who is completely unrelated to her? Edited February 20 by meadsoap Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluegrassBlues Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: This quote is from George Chin and he's talking about the show at the Deer Creek Music Center, Indiana, in May 1991. It appears that Axl was still on good terms with his family (at least superficially) at that point in time, which is kind of surprising, even more so if he had already told Zutaut that he was going to expose his stepfather for the monster he was. I think it's more likely that the interaction with Zutaut happened at some point later that year, but who knows. George Chin: "Indianapolis is where Axl and Izzy grew up. At this gig, Axl sent a stretch to collect his granny and family from Lafayette, to come to the gig. The driver had orders to bring back ice-cream and pizzas from this one store in Lafayette where Axl used to hang out when he was a kid, and after the show, Axl and his family had a real homely reunion. Axl's granny was an older female version of him. She knew all the words to all the Guns N' Roses songs and she sang along at the gig." He was close with his grandmother, and I think she went to a few shows. Iirc, she was the only member of Axl's family that Slash liked so by going on that I would think she went to a few shows, and we know his siblings did. But from everything I've read, his mother and stepfather always refused to attend his shows, even when he sent limos and made arrangements for them. So I doubt his stepfather and mother were there for a homely backstage visit 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted February 20 Share Posted February 20 (edited) 13 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: This quote is from George Chin and he's talking about the show at the Deer Creek Music Center, Indiana, in May 1991. It appears that Axl was still on good terms with his family (at least superficially) at that point in time, which is kind of surprising, even more so if he had already told Zutaut that he was going to expose his stepfather for the monster he was. I think it's more likely that the interaction with Zutaut happened at some point later that year, but who knows. George Chin: "Indianapolis is where Axl and Izzy grew up. At this gig, Axl sent a stretch to collect his granny and family from Lafayette, to come to the gig. The driver had orders to bring back ice-cream and pizzas from this one store in Lafayette where Axl used to hang out when he was a kid, and after the show, Axl and his family had a real homely reunion. Axl's granny was an older female version of him. She knew all the words to all the Guns N' Roses songs and she sang along at the gig." I don't seem to remember this quote or its source (is it from a book?) But there's also this account of a journalist who had attended the shows at the Deer Creek as a young fan: Jake Query: [...] And it was only years later that two different people that worked on that tour from the Indianapolis side, that had worked in the promotion of it, have told me the reason that was delayed was because Axl Rose was sitting in his hotel room in Indianapolis, and all of the things of his childhood, you know, the evil stepfather – I’m not saying this flippantly... [...] Some of the, you know, alleged and apparent very bad things that happened to him as a young person came back to him, and he was sitting in his hotel room, on his bed with his legs folded, saying, “I can’t do it. I can’t go out there, I can’t go in front of... I can’t do it again.” And it took a team of people to convince him and rally him to go out there. And I remember when Axl Rose came out on the stage in that particular night, night two of that tour, he started out with kind of a diatribe against Indiana and authority in Indiana [...] Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX3tghRo6RY https://www.a-4-d.com/t4611-2000-08-25-indianapolis-star-guns-free-zone-slash#18156 Edited February 21 by Blackstar 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scream of the Butterfly Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 2 hours ago, meadsoap said: What does Axl's stepdad have to do with that quote? It didn't say he invited him, or which family members he invited at all besides his grandmother. He can't spend time with his maternal grandmother if he's angry with a man who is completely unrelated to her? It says "granny and family". Amy and Stuart worked for Axl and were around all the time, so most likely they were not the family members who were collected from Lafayette. That leaves the parents. Where did anybody say that he can't spend time with his grandmother (or with his mother and stepfather for that matter)? 1 hour ago, Blackstar said: I don't seem to remember this quote or its source of this quote (is it from a book?) Yes, it's from his book. 1 hour ago, Blackstar said: But there's also this account of a journalist who had attended the shows at the Deer Creek as a young fan: Jake Query: [...] And it was only years later that two different people that worked on that tour from the Indianapolis side, that had worked in the promotion of it, have told me the reason that was delayed was because Axl Rose was sitting in his hotel room in Indianapolis, and all of the things of his childhood, you know, the evil stepfather – I’m not saying this flippantly... [...] Some of the, you know, alleged and apparent very bad things that happened to him as a young person came back to him, and he was sitting in his hotel room, on his bed with his legs folded, saying, “I can’t do it. I can’t go out there, I can’t go in front of... I can’t do it again.” And it took a team of people to convince him and rally him to go out there. And I remember when Axl Rose came out on the stage in that particular night, night two of that tour, he started out with kind of a diatribe against Indiana and authority in Indiana [...] Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WX3tghRo6RY https://www.a-4-d.com/t4611-2000-08-25-indianapolis-star-guns-free-zone-slash#18156 Interesting. This person attended the second Deer Creek show. I think Axl's family attended the show the night before. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaknudsen Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 11 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: Interesting. This person attended the second Deer Creek show. I think Axl's family attended the show the night before. The diatribe was on the first night, wasn't it? https://www.a-4-d.com/t1723-1991-05-28-deer-creek-music-center-noblesville-usa#5719 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadsoap Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 12 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: It says "granny and family". Amy and Stuart worked for Axl and were around all the time, so most likely they were not the family members who were collected from Lafayette. That leaves the parents. I don't know if you were aware, but it's possible to have other family members besides your mother, father, brother, and sister... And someone else already pointed out that neither his mother or his stepfather ever attended any concert, much less in the 90s when Axl was done with them for good. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scream of the Butterfly Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 2 hours ago, jaknudsen said: The diatribe was on the first night, wasn't it? https://www.a-4-d.com/t1723-1991-05-28-deer-creek-music-center-noblesville-usa#5719 It appears so, but on the youtube video at around 20:10, Jake Query said the show he attended was the second of the two nights at Deer Creek. He also said that Axl ended the show with the words, "Good night and thank you homeland." Those were the words Axl said at the end of the second night (I don't know whether he said the same thing at the end of the first night.) 1 hour ago, meadsoap said: I don't know if you were aware, but it's possible to have other family members besides your mother, father, brother, and sister... If by "family" he meant extended family, it makes no sense to write "his granny and family", because his granny is part of his extended family. 1 hour ago, meadsoap said: And someone else already pointed out that neither his mother or his stepfather ever attended any concert, much less in the 90s when Axl was done with them for good. Saying so doesn't make it so. We don't know with certainty whether they ever attended a concert or not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scream of the Butterfly Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 I wonder where and when this picture was taken. Was it an earlier family reunion or could it have been taken in 1991? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluegrassBlues Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 (edited) 35 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: I wonder where and when this picture was taken. Was it an earlier family reunion or could it have been taken in 1991? I think it was earlier, going by Axl's clothes and hair my guess would be around 88 or 89 Edited February 21 by BluegrassBlues 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 39 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: I wonder where and when this picture was taken. Was it an earlier family reunion or could it have been taken in 1991? I assume it was taken in 1989, because of Axl's hair and also because in another picture from the same batch, his mother looks the same as in the recently shared photo in front of the BMW. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scream of the Butterfly Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 36 minutes ago, BluegrassBlues said: I think it was earlier, going by Axl's clothes and hair my guess would be around 88 or 89 28 minutes ago, Blackstar said: I assume it was taken in 1989, because of Axl's hair and also because in another picture from the same batch, his mother looks the same as in the recently shared photo in front of the BMW. Yes, and I think they all look a bit younger than what I would expect in 1991, especially Stuart. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadsoap Posted February 21 Share Posted February 21 4 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: I wonder where and when this picture was taken. Was it an earlier family reunion or could it have been taken in 1991? Shortly after this picture is when the conversation with Tom Zutaut happened and then the Rolling Stone interview in 1992. Which is for the best. I understand the impulse to try to recapture a feeling of family you never got to have, but this photo just is sad to me knowing the history behind it now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatashame Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) sorry, here's a question to all those who understand it better at this point. It's not me trying to be a wise guy, it's me getting lost in the Kashardian-like soap opera - I can't seem to put the pieces together anylonger . So Axl's mum and the biological father had a baby, Axl, and the biological father sexually abused Axl and then left. So in comes Axl's stepdad, sexually abuses Axl and Axl's sister for years, anally and so, and Axl leaves home, comes back all buddy-buddy, buys cars for gifts and offers forgiveness, all the while Axl is on the record hating fa-xxx-ts, n-xxx-rs, the police, and proudly confessing to nearly killing the guy who he met on the bus ride to NY and who offered him a sleepover and late at night tried to sexually abuse him, and so on and so forth? edit no, fool, don't ridicule me, just explain it to me, i'm trying here Edited February 25 by whatashame Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 33 minutes ago, whatashame said: edit no, fool, don't ridicule me, just explain it to me, i'm trying here Well, you fail at trying. Try harder and ask your questions in a more respectful manner to those involved and those you're talking to. Anyway, if you just read this, no further explanation is needed. https://www.a-4-d.com/t4995-13-july-november-1991-use-your-illusions-are-out-so-is-izzy#19582 Edited February 25 by Blackstar 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatashame Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 yes ma'am Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scream of the Butterfly Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 4 hours ago, whatashame said: sorry, here's a question to all those who understand it better at this point. It's not me trying to be a wise guy, it's me getting lost in the Kashardian-like soap opera - I can't seem to put the pieces together anylonger . So Axl's mum and the biological father had a baby, Axl, and the biological father sexually abused Axl and then left. So in comes Axl's stepdad, sexually abuses Axl and Axl's sister for years, anally and so, and Axl leaves home, comes back all buddy-buddy, buys cars for gifts and offers forgiveness, all the while Axl is on the record hating fa-xxx-ts, n-xxx-rs, the police, and proudly confessing to nearly killing the guy who he met on the bus ride to NY and who offered him a sleepover and late at night tried to sexually abuse him, and so on and so forth? edit no, fool, don't ridicule me, just explain it to me, i'm trying here Going by what Axl said in interviews, he didn't know he had been sexually abused. He only found out about it when he was about 29. He believed something must have happened that would explain his issues with women, and other problems, so he started regression therapy and came up with the memory of having been raped as a child by his biological father. He also said he had been beaten as a child by his stepfather, which I assume he had remembered all along, but most likely it would not have been considered child abuse in Indiana at the time, or even now, and Axl himself said he had thought it was normal (even though he's now trying to use it against Sheila Kennedy that she didn't initially recognize that what happened to her was rape). I imagine he didn't think it was enough grounds to cut ties with his family, especially if his stepfather had changed and was remorseful for what he had done. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scream of the Butterfly Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 4 hours ago, Blackstar said: Well, you fail at trying. Try harder and ask your questions in a more respectful manner to those involved and those you're talking to. Anyway, if you just read this, no further explanation is needed. https://www.a-4-d.com/t4995-13-july-november-1991-use-your-illusions-are-out-so-is-izzy#19582 From your link: "Alleged memories resulting from regression therapy included early memories of his stepfather being abusive to his mother resulting in Axl being born with a hatred towards his stepfather [Rolling Stone, April 2, 1992]." I think this is incorrect. He was talking about his biological father, not his stepfather. I don't recall him ever accusing his stepfather of being abusive to his mother. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 19 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: From your link: "Alleged memories resulting from regression therapy included early memories of his stepfather being abusive to his mother resulting in Axl being born with a hatred towards his stepfather [Rolling Stone, April 2, 1992]." I think this is incorrect. He was talking about his biological father, not his stepfather. I don't recall him ever accusing his stepfather of being abusive to his mother. Yes, it's a typo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avillart Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: Going by what Axl said in interviews, he didn't know he had been sexually abused. He only found out about it when he was about 29. He believed something must have happened that would explain his issues with women, and other problems, so he started regression therapy and came up with the memory of having been raped as a child by his biological father. He started the regression therapy after having memories coming up. The memory/feeling that it had happened was what made him start regression therapy. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadsoap Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 1 hour ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: Going by what Axl said in interviews, he didn't know he had been sexually abused. He only found out about it when he was about 29. He believed something must have happened that would explain his issues with women, and other problems, so he started regression therapy and came up with the memory of having been raped as a child by his biological father. Not true. Axl never said that. Axl started past life regression therapy months after his conversation with Tom Zutaut. That means that the conversation with Zutaut (where he confessed to Zutaut about sexual abuse by his stepfather) featured no recovered memories. These were memories he had all along that he just wasn't open about. You can make an argument that the memories of his biological father (not stepfather) are false memories resulting from regression therapy, but his stepfather is a completely separate issue. Edited February 25 by meadsoap 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadsoap Posted February 25 Share Posted February 25 (edited) 2 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: He also said he had been beaten as a child by his stepfather, which I assume he had remembered all along, but most likely it would not have been considered child abuse in Indiana at the time, or even now, and Axl himself said he had thought it was normal (even though he's now trying to use it against Sheila Kennedy that she didn't initially recognize that what happened to her was rape). I imagine he didn't think it was enough grounds to cut ties with his family, especially if his stepfather had changed and was remorseful for what he had done. This is also not true. Axl talked about how being raised in an environment of normalized violence influenced how he responded to situations later on in life, but he always called it exactly what it was: abuse. He first stated talking about it publicly in 1989, and his description of it never changed. He's maintained all these decades that he was abused physically and mentally in many awful ways. When he did talk about trying to reconnect with his stepfather, he talked about trying to forgive what he did and move on from past traumas (until he found that wasn't possible). It's only now that we're learning, against Axl's will, that the extent of his stepfathers abuse of him was worse than he let on publicly. Plus, the extra details we now know more of are completely consistent with what we've heard before. This is nothing like Sheila Kennedy. She has already been proven to have lied and embellished (intentionally or not) key details, her details of her story keeps changing in contradictory ways, she said she consented just two years ago (and maintained that for decades) and then suddenly says she didn't consent now that she's seeking money for a lawsuit, and details she had in her original book are being dropped from the lawsuit at her convenience. She completely inconsistent and exaggerates at every opportunity, which is actually the exact opposite of what Axl has been over the decades. Edited February 25 by meadsoap 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scream of the Butterfly Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 1 hour ago, Avillart said: He started the regression therapy after having memories coming up. The memory/feeling that it had happened was what made him start regression therapy. We had this discussion before, and you didn't provide any source, so my impressions are still based on the interviews I've read myself. He may have suspected it, but I don't think he ever said he remembered it before starting therapy. 1 hour ago, meadsoap said: Not true. Axl never said that. Axl started past life regression therapy months after his conversation with Tom Zutaut. That means that the conversation with Zutaut (where he confessed to Zutaut about sexual abuse by his stepfather) featured no recovered memories. These were memories he had all along that he just wasn't open about. You can make an argument that the memories of his biological father (not stepfather) are false memories resulting from regression therapy, but his stepfather is a completely separate issue. We don't know when his conversation with Zutaut took place. I started the post with "Going by what Axl said in interviews" to make it clear I wasn't taking Zutaut's comment into consideration. 1 hour ago, meadsoap said: This is also not true. Axl talked about how being raised in an environment of normalized violence influenced how he responded to situations later on in life, but he always called it exactly what it was: abuse. He first stated talking about it publicly in 1989, and his description of it never changed. He's maintained all these decades that he was abused physically and mentally in many awful ways. I don't remember whether he ever called it abuse, although I assume he had started to perceive it as such at some point. He did say "I thought these things were normal" in the Rolling Stone interview in 1992. You should take the time to actually read the interviews and not be so quick to assert that something isn't true. I think this is at least the third time you have falsely accused me of saying something that isn't true. Take a look in the mirror. 1 hour ago, meadsoap said: This is nothing like Sheila Kennedy. She has already been proven to have lied and embellished (intentionally or not) key details, her details of her story keeps changing in contradictory ways, she said she consented just two years ago (and maintained that for decades) and then suddenly says she didn't consent now that she's seeking money for a lawsuit, and details she had in her original book are being dropped from the lawsuit at her convenience. She completely inconsistent and exaggerates at every opportunity, which is actually the exact opposite of what Axl has been over the decades. Axl's "details" changed quite considerably if you believe the Zutaut quote that you are so fond of. He told Zutaut he was going to do the Rolling Stone interview to expose his stepfather for sexually abusing him, but when he actually did the interview, suddenly it was his biological father who had sexually abused him. This is indeed in a whole different ballpark from Sheila's situation. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
meadsoap Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) 33 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said: We had this discussion before, and you didn't provide any source, so my impressions are still based on the interviews I've read myself. He may have suspected it, but I don't think he ever said he remembered it before starting therapy. We don't know when his conversation with Zutaut took place. I started the post with "Going by what Axl said in interviews" to make it clear I wasn't taking Zutaut's comment into consideration. I don't remember whether he ever called it abuse, although I assume he had started to perceive it as such at some point. He did say "I thought these things were normal" in the Rolling Stone interview in 1992. You should take the time to actually read the interviews and not be so quick to assert that something isn't true. I think this is at least the third time you have falsely accused me of saying something that isn't true. Take a look in the mirror. Axl's "details" changed quite considerably if you believe the Zutaut quote that you are so fond of. He told Zutaut he was going to do the Rolling Stone interview to expose his stepfather for sexually abusing him, but when he actually did the interview, suddenly it was his biological father who had sexually abused him. This is indeed in a whole different ballpark from Sheila's situation. 1. We do know when the conversation with Zutaut took place. Zutaut directly said that Axl told him about it while recording the UYI albums' vocals. Axl and Zutaut fell out and stopped talking to each other in late 1990, so he and Axl talked about it before then. That was months before Axl started regression therapy. 2. He made comments that he thought they were normal when he was child and still being raised by his stepfather. He did not say that it was normal and non-abusive when he started talking about it in interviews. You said he was doing the same thing as Sheila Kennedy, which is the false part. Sheila Kennedy, decades after it allegedly happened, was still asserting that it was consensual in interviews, up to 2 years ago. Axl did not do anything like this. If you want me to stop accusing you of saying things that aren't true... simply stop saying things that aren't true. 3. Choosing not to talk about something personal to you is not the same as changing the details of a story you already told (which Sheila did several times) and lying about several more details. Obviously. I shouldn't have to explain that but you I guess you find new way to surprise me every time. Edited February 26 by meadsoap 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BluegrassBlues Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 While I am on the fence about regression therapy myself, it doesn't seem like a very reliable source to get help from, there was a newspaper article that backs up what Axl says happens about being kidnapped at the very least. There were a few about his mother and his biological father, about a couple battery charges and a divorce being denied and then granted the second time, and then the kidnapping. It did confuse me those, in the newspaper article it says there are two children which would have been Axl and his sister, so going by that I believe they are full siblings (not that it matters, there is no full or "half" siblings to me) at the time of the divorce. So I guess their brother is the only half sibling? So, whether or not regression therapy is what uncovered it, I believe it did happen. His mother spoke about what happened and the trial was in the paper, so I'm not sure why there is so much back and forth on whether it happened or not. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackstar Posted February 26 Share Posted February 26 (edited) 39 minutes ago, BluegrassBlues said: While I am on the fence about regression therapy myself, it doesn't seem like a very reliable source to get help from, there was a newspaper article that backs up what Axl says happens about being kidnapped at the very least. There were a few about his mother and his biological father, about a couple battery charges and a divorce being denied and then granted the second time, and then the kidnapping. It did confuse me those, in the newspaper article it says there are two children which would have been Axl and his sister, so going by that I believe they are full siblings (not that it matters, there is no full or "half" siblings to me) at the time of the divorce. So I guess their brother is the only half sibling? So, whether or not regression therapy is what uncovered it, I believe it did happen. His mother spoke about what happened and the trial was in the paper, so I'm not sure why there is so much back and forth on whether it happened or not. Yes, the context of the story was real, so it wasn't a false memories that came from regression therapy, However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the "core event" of child rape also happened (that's something that is hard to have evidence for anyway). For example, Axl could have known the context from other sources (like from his mother after confronting her when he first started therapy), and then the memory of the rape was inserted there with the regression therapy. (Yes, Axl' sister was born before the divorce, so it is certain that L. Stephen Bailey wasn't her biological father. Officially William Rose was her biological father, too, but whether she and Axl are in reality half or full siblings is unknown - and not our business, really). Edited February 26 by Blackstar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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