Rare Axl pics Stephen and Sharon Bailey

[BluegrassBlues]

5 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, the context of the story was real, so it wasn't a false memories that came from regression therapy, However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the "core event" of child rape also happened (that's something that is hard to have evidence for anyway). For example, Axl could have known the context from other sources (like from his mother after confronting her when he first started therapy), and then the memory of the rape was inserted there with the regression therapy.

(Yes, Axl' sister was born at the time of the divorce, so it is certain that L. Stephen Bailey wasn't her biological father. Officially William Rose was her biological father, too, but whether she and Axl are in reality half or full siblings is unknown - and not our business, really).

To be honest none of this horrible mess is our business, I completely agree with that. It is for sure a sad start to a life, my heart is with everyone involved in this. That's true he could have gotten the context from an outside source and more than likely did, that is more reliable than regression therapy that then filled in the blanks with everything else. I only mentioned it because I feel like the entire scenario is being written off as not happening and made up in therapy when there is evidence to back up the kidnapping at least did happen 

[Blackstar]

21 minutes ago, BluegrassBlues said:

To be honest none of this horrible mess is our business, I completely agree with that. It is for sure a sad start to a life, my heart is with everyone involved in this. That's true he could have gotten the context from an outside source and more than likely did, that is more reliable than regression therapy that then filled in the blanks with everything else. I only mentioned it because I feel like the entire scenario is being written off as not happening and made up in therapy when there is evidence to back up the kidnapping at least did happen 

Yes, there is evidence about the kidnapping and other things, but I don't know if the newspaper clippings have been shared. I've had them for a while but haven't shared them on a public forum (except mentioning that they confirm the kidnapping) because, even though it's public information since it's in a newspaper, I've felt that they concern private matters.

[Avillart]

3 hours ago, meadsoap said:

This is also not true. Axl talked about how being raised in an environment of normalized violence influenced how he responded to situations later on in life, but he always called it exactly what it was: abuse. He first stated talking about it publicly in 1989, and his description of it never changed. He's maintained all these decades that he was abused physically and mentally in many awful ways. 

This. 

 

2 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

We had this discussion before, and you didn't provide any source, so my impressions are still based on the interviews I've read myself. He may have suspected it, but I don't think he ever said he remembered it before starting therapy.

 

Apparently you didn't read the interviews then. In early 1992 he publicly stated that he had memories/feelings come up that it happened to him and that he suspected it years ago. He only started the regression therapy in 1991, so do the math. 

Again, it is his trauma and for him to discuss but he had memories before - memories are also physical and he had physical problems in areas that told him he had sexual trauma. As an abuse victim, and especially when it happens in childhood, you will always experience physical sensations, mostly stress/nervous system-related symptoms when you enter certain situations again in your life cause when you're that young you can't consciously process these things and the memories will express themselves as cellular and muscle memory. These sensations are what makes people enter regression-/hypno therapy and this is also how it happened in his case. 

 

To compare his situation with Sheila Kennedy, to me is just cruel and doesn't speak of much intelligence. Unlike her, he outed everything in order to understand what happened to him and to become a better person. The details that kept "changing" from time to time, like the father or stepfather question, are the way he was remembering and sorting things for himself at the time, not to deliberately falsely accuse someone or to sell, like Sheila Kennedy does. 

Some people seem to forget that he was a child, he was a victim of the circumstances and couldn't get out because he was depending on those involved. She was a grown woman who would go out and deliberately (and self-admittedly) seek to sleep with and secure rich and powerful men who would give her a good time, money and play their part in her taking revenge on other men. Between her and Axl there are WORLDS.

[Avillart]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, the context of the story was real, so it wasn't a false memories that came from regression therapy, However, that doesn't necessarily mean that the "core event" of child rape also happened (that's something that is hard to have evidence for anyway). For example, Axl could have known the context from other sources (like from his mother after confronting her when he first started therapy), and then the memory of the rape was inserted there with the regression therapy.

 

Yes, and when you look at it that way, the entire abuse could've been inserted. They call it screen memories and has been done a lot to children who later (some still in childhood) enter the entertainment industry. Axl's childhood would be a classic scenario (not knowing the biological parent/s, church or military environment, abuse starting at the age of 1-2 amongst other markers) There are even studies as to how these children are programmed to turn into a specific personality type, for instance the studious kid, the musical prodigy, and so forth. This would unnecessarily expand the discussion though and again, for me personally it doesn't sit well to discuss a person's trauma and story when the person isn't part of it. He's suffered enough and coming from a similar background as Axl, my heart still breaks for him when I think how he and his life were turned into such a mess and how he got into all that unnecessary drama with people and had to be his own enemy for so long. And that's why I'm also furious about that Sheila Kennedy "case" and that's why I asked in the other thread right when it started if she was aware of his past and trauma before she made her claims. If she was aware of who she did use and provoke there in the situation (she herself said he was about to explode and yet she kept escalating the situation). She surely was not and then her scheme backfired and she cries wolf. Again, he was a child, she was not. 

[BluegrassBlues]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

Yes, there is evidence about the kidnapping and other things, but I don't know if the newspaper clippings have been shared. I've had them for a while but haven't shared them on a public forum (except mentioning that they confirm the kidnapping) because, even though it's public information since it's in a newspaper, I've felt that they concern private matters.

Same with me, I came across them about a year or so ago on a site but to my knowledge I don't think they've been shared on any fan or public forum. I have a gnr collection I've been getting together and have found a few things out that makes me very sympathetic towards Axl that has really connected a lot of dots and makes me believe his memories are probably true, as much as I don't like regression therapy and think it causes more harm than good 

[Blackstar]

9 minutes ago, BluegrassBlues said:

Same with me, I came across them about a year or so ago on a site but to my knowledge I don't think they've been shared on any fan or public forum. I have a gnr collection I've been getting together and have found a few things out that makes me very sympathetic towards Axl that has really connected a lot of dots and makes me believe his memories are probably true, as much as I don't like regression therapy and think it causes more harm than good 

Did you find them by subscribing and searching in a newspaper archives site, or you came across them somewhere on the internet? (I'm asking because I'm curious if someone else found them in the newspaper archives and posted them on the internet somewhere)

https://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/217670-gnr-womens-discussion-part-2/?do=findComment&comment=4385599

 

[BluegrassBlues]

14 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

Did you find them by subscribing and searching in a newspaper archives site, or you came across them somewhere on the internet? (I'm asking because I'm curious if someone else found them in the newspaper archives and posted them on the internet somewhere)

https://www.mygnrforum.com/topic/217670-gnr-womens-discussion-part-2/?do=findComment&comment=4385599

 

I totally understand! I was told about them through messaging on another site, but the actual newspaper clippings weren't posted as far as I know, just where to find them and then I fell down the rabbit hole. It's not a big group, but there are some folks who are still massive fans who have interesting stuff they've found and are nice enough to share it 

[Scream of the Butterfly]

5 hours ago, meadsoap said:

1. We do know when the conversation with Zutaut took place. Zutaut directly said that Axl told him about it while recording the UYI albums' vocals. Axl and Zutaut fell out and stopped talking to each other in late 1990, so he and Axl talked about it before then. That was months before Axl started regression therapy.

They were still recording as late as summer of 1991 and Zutaut was still around. He returned after Axl called him and apologized. The fall-out they had over Erin wasn't the end of their communications. So it's a very wide time window. It's also possible that decades later Zutaut's recollections aren't accurate.

5 hours ago, meadsoap said:

2. He made comments that he thought they were normal when he was child and still being raised by his stepfather. He did not say that it was normal and non-abusive when he started talking about it in interviews.

Where did I say otherwise?

5 hours ago, meadsoap said:

You said he was doing the same thing as Sheila Kennedy, which is the false part. Sheila Kennedy, decades after it allegedly happened, was still asserting that it was consensual in interviews, up to 2 years ago.

I think she was talking about her thinking at the time it happened that led her to not go to the police. She blamed herself for putting herself in that situation, allowing it to happen etc. But that discussion should probably continue in the other thread.

5 hours ago, meadsoap said:

If you want me to stop accusing you of saying things that aren't true... simply stop saying things that aren't true.

You are by far sloppier with your facts than I am with mine and that is the truth.

5 hours ago, meadsoap said:

3. Choosing not to talk about something personal to you is not the same as changing the details of a story you already told (which Sheila did several times) and lying about several more details. Obviously. I shouldn't have to explain that but you I guess you find new way to surprise me every time. 

He didn't just choose not to talk about it. He made it very clear it was his biological father, not his stepfather, who sexually abused him.

[Scream of the Butterfly]

3 hours ago, Avillart said:

Apparently you didn't read the interviews then. In early 1992 he publicly stated that he had memories/feelings come up that it happened to him and that he suspected it years ago. He only started the regression therapy in 1991, so do the math. 

Can you (or anyone) provide a quote where he says he remembered it before he started therapy? (I'm talking about conscious memories.)

[Blackstar]

8 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

They were still recording as late as summer of 1991 and Zutaut was still around. He returned after Axl called him and apologized. The fall-out they had over Erin wasn't the end of their communications. So it's a very wide time window. It's also possible that decades later Zutaut's recollections aren't accurate.

Tom Zutaut also mentioned it (without the details) in an interview he did for a book that was released in 1994 (and the interview was probably conducted in late 1991 or early 1992):

Tom Zutaut: And I remember sitting with Axl one night during the time we were recording the Use Your Illusion albums, and he broke down and cried and talked about how he was abused as a kid and how he found out his sister was abused... Axl's in his late twenties physically, but emotionally is probably four or five years old.

The recordings after March 1991 were minor (overdubs) and were done mostly on the road.

I also don't think Axl would open to Tom Zutaut about these things during their falling out, even if they were still in contact (they had fallen out by the time Tom Zutaut was interviewed in the book - he talked about that, too, and his assumption then was that it had to do with Sharon Maynard/Yoda.)

Edited February 26 by Blackstar

[meadsoap]

12 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

They were still recording as late as summer of 1991 and Zutaut was still around. He returned after Axl called him and apologized. The fall-out they had over Erin wasn't the end of their communications. So it's a very wide time window. It's also possible that decades later Zutaut's recollections aren't accurate.

Where did I say otherwise?

I think she was talking about her thinking at the time it happened that led her to not go to the police. She blamed herself for putting herself in that situation, allowing it to happen etc. But that discussion should probably continue in the other thread.

You are by far sloppier with your facts than I am with mine and that is the truth.

He didn't just choose not to talk about it. He made it very clear it was his biological father, not his stepfather, who sexually abused him.

You can't say I'm the one that's "sloppy with facts", when 3 other posters besides me have been constantly correcting you on your comments, and you refuse to listen to them either. Not once through this whole conversation did anyone have to do that to me lol. Almost everything you've said you've gotten wrong, and multiple people have devoted paragraphs to explaining why, and yet... you're still here still not getting facts right and you had to be corrected AGAIN.

Speaks volumes, not that I expect you to grasp that either.

Edited February 26 by meadsoap

[Scream of the Butterfly]

5 hours ago, meadsoap said:

You can't say I'm the one that's "sloppy with facts", when 3 other posters besides me have been constantly correcting you on your comments, and you refuse to listen to them either. Not once through this whole conversation did anyone have to do that to me lol. Almost everything you've said you've gotten wrong, and multiple people have devoted paragraphs to explaining why, and yet... you're still here still not getting facts right and you had to be corrected AGAIN.

Speaks volumes, not that I expect you to grasp that either.

If I have said something that isn't true, it's because the original source (Axl, Zutaut, George Chin, etc) was wrong. I don't think the post above yours corrected what I said but added some more information and opinion to it.

For all our speculation, it remains we can't be certain when the discussion took place or what exactly was said. It wasn't a written note from Axl as you claimed earlier. Your fierce commitment that it happened in 1990 or whenever you think it happened seems rather deranged. I have no horse in this race. It would make sense to me if it happened in 1991, after Axl and Zutaut temporarily reconciled, because that would also be closer to when the interview actually happened in 1992. On the other hand, if it happened earlier, that would give Axl more time to change his mind about who he was going to say sexually abused him. I'm fine with whenever it happened or even if it didn't happen at all but still uncertain.

[Scream of the Butterfly]

I should add that in the Rolling Stone interview Axl did in 1992 he said, "I didn't know my sister was molested until last year." which directly contradicts the idea that he told Zutaut about it in 1990.

[Blackstar]

I think the time frame of when Axl talked to Tom Zutaut could be narrowed down to either December 1990 or February 1991. According to Bob Clearmountain, who was initially hired to mix UYI, the falling out with Tom Zutaut happened during the second week of the mixing. Based on the dates on a bootleg tape containing presumably the first 11 Clearmountain mixes, he started working on mixing the songs Axl had finished recording vocals on in mid December 1990 (the earliest date on the tape is Dec. 15, 1990 and the latest Jan. 16, 1991). Then Tom Zutaut, according to himself, went to the studio again in February 1991, when Clearmountain had mixed 24 songs (that was probably when Axl invited him back), and they decided to fire Clearmountain and hire Bill Price.

But it's also possible that it was earlier than that, because Axl had been in the studio before he started recording his vocals (to record piano and keyboard parts).

Edited February 26 by Blackstar

[meadsoap]

2 hours ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

It wasn't a written note from Axl as you claimed earlier. Your fierce commitment that it happened in 1990 or whenever you think it happened seems rather deranged. I have no horse in this race. It would make sense to me if it happened in 1991, after Axl and Zutaut temporarily reconciled, because that would also be closer to when the interview actually happened in 1992. On the other hand, if it happened earlier, that would give Axl more time to change his mind about who he was going to say sexually abused him. I'm fine with whenever it happened or even if it didn't happen at all but still uncertain.

 

I did estimate late 1990, and I stick by that. You brought up that Rolling Stone interview where Axl said he found out his sister was sexually abused by his stepfather "last year". While the cover story didn't come out until April of 1992, Axl conducted that Interview in January of 1992 while the band was on tour in Las Vegas. That would be about 12-and-a-half months after the events of December 1990, when Zutaut was in the studio helping Axl record vocals. Since Axl talks like a normal human being, he just said it happened a year ago instead of "about 12 months and 13 days ago, I found out..." like he's some kind of timekeeping robot. 

But whether it happened in 1990 or the early months of 1991, that's still before he started recovered memory therapy, which was your excuse for not believing Axl's words about being sexually abused by his stepfather. Axl's memories about his stepfather were authentic and completely his own.

Edited February 26 by meadsoap

[Scream of the Butterfly]

59 minutes ago, Blackstar said:

I think the time frame of when Axl talked to Tom Zutaut could be narrowed down to either December 1990 or February 1991. According to Bob Clearmountain, who was initially hired to mix UYI, the falling out with Tom Zutaut happened during the second week of the mixing. Based on the dates on a bootleg tape containing presumably the first 11 Clearmountain mixes, he started working on mixing the songs Axl had finished recording vocals on in mid December 1990 (the earliest date on the tape is Dec. 15, 1990 and the latest Jan. 16, 1991). Then Tom Zutaut, according to himself, went to the studio again in February 1991, when Clearmountain had mixed 24 songs (that was probably when Axl invited him back), and they decided to fire Clearmountain and hire Bill Price.

But it's also possible that it was earlier than that, because Axl had been in the studio before he started recording his vocals (to record piano and keyboard parts).

Why do you think it could not have happened later? My guess would be it happened in the summer of 1991, perhaps around the Toronto shows:

"During the interview, Tom Zutaut, the young artists-and-repertoire executive at Geffen Records who signed Guns N' Roses, arrives from Los Angeles with the tracks for the band's two new albums, which are now tentatively due in September. Rose still needs to put the final vocal on one selection--and a studio was booked in Toronto for the next night."[The Los Angeles Times, July 21, 1991]

[Scream of the Butterfly]

7 minutes ago, meadsoap said:

 

I did estimate late 1990, and I stick by that. You brought up that Rolling Stone interview where Axl said he found out his sister was sexually abused by his stepfather "last year". While the cover story didn't come out until April of 1992, Axl conducted that Interview in mid-January of 1992 while the band was on tour in Las Vegas. That would be about 12-and-a-half months after the events of December 1990, when Zutaut was in the studio helping Axl record vocals. Since Axl talks like a normal human being, he just said it happened a year ago instead of "about 12 months and 13 days ago, I found out..." like he's some kind of timekeeping robot. It's not proof of much.

But whether it happened in 1990 or the early months of 1991, that's still before he started recovered memory therapy (which was your excuses for not believing Axl's words about being sexually abused by his stepfather). 

He didn't say "a year ago", he said "last year". Stop twisting things.

[meadsoap]

13 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

He didn't say "a year ago", he said "last year". Stop twisting things.

Splitting hairs again. I estimate they had the conversation in December of 1990 and Axl gave the interview just a bit over 12 months later. Saying "last year" and or that it was "a year ago" both make sense in that context. Again, that's how normal humans talk. 

Edited February 26 by meadsoap

[Blackstar]

28 minutes ago, Scream of the Butterfly said:

Why do you think it could not have happened later? My guess would be it happened in the summer of 1991, perhaps around the Toronto shows:

"During the interview, Tom Zutaut, the young artists-and-repertoire executive at Geffen Records who signed Guns N' Roses, arrives from Los Angeles with the tracks for the band's two new albums, which are now tentatively due in September. Rose still needs to put the final vocal on one selection--and a studio was booked in Toronto for the next night."[The Los Angeles Times, July 21, 1991]

That should be ruled out, because:

1) The whole band was present during the recording in Toronto (at least Slash and Duff definitely were there). Axl has talked about that recording (it was when he recorded the rant part on Get In The Ring, which was also the last vocal he recorded).

2) Prior to the 1992 Rolling Stone interview, Axl (and the rest of GN'R) had done some interview sessions for RS with Kim Neely, who travelled with them from May to July 1991. In one of the first sessions in May 1991, Axl hinted at some things about having been abused. That article was published in Sept. 1991. According to Kim Neely, Axl called her a month later and told her he had decided to go on record about being abused, but waited to see the printed result of the 1991 interview sessions to decide if he would do the child abuse interview with her (so the 1991 article was kind of Axl's way of testing her). So he had already decided to talk in May at the latest.

Edited February 26 by Blackstar

[Blackstar]

And regarding the 1991 shows in Indiana we were talking about earlier:

"I'm going to play Indianapolis in a couple of days," Rose says, "and there's a lot of people I'm not having come to my show. There's a lot of people I am. There's a lot of people I'm realizing are more important to me than the people I've worried about my whole life."

https://www.a-4-d.com/t525-1991-09-09-rolling-stone-outta-control-axl-slash-izzy-duff-matt-and-dizzy

So I don't think his stepfather was among the "family" that were invited.

[Dexterscollar]

Rare Axl pics

[Blackstar]

7 minutes ago, Dexterscollar said:

Rare Axl pics

What's the source of these?

[Georgina Arriaga]

The second one Is stunning.

Thanks very mucho for sharing

[lame ass security]

1 hour ago, Blackstar said:

What's the source of these?

Good question, very curious myself. 

[BluegrassBlues]

Where in the world did you find these? These seem like very private family photos