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Ontario sheds 59,300 part-time jobs in January as new $14 minimum wage begins

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http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/ontario-jobs-update-losses-minimum-wage-1.4528669

Ontario shed some 59,300 part-time jobs in January — the same month the province hiked minimum wage some 20 per cent to $14 an hour, but experts say it may be too soon to know how much the two are correlated.

The province shed 50,900 jobs total from December 2017, according to the Statistics Canada report.

It gained approximately 8,500 full-time positions but lost roughly 59,300 part-time gigs, according to data provided by the
agency, which noted the figures are rounded. 

Minimum wage hike 'right' thing to do, minister tells skeptical Cambridge business owners

That means there was 3.4 per cent or 46,100 fewer part-time posts in January 2018 than the same time the previous year.

Some economists said it's possible Ontario's minimum wage increase played a role in those declines, but noted it's important not to read too much into one month of data. 

Ontario Economic Development Minister Steven Del Duca dismissed the suggestion that the part-time job losses were a result of the provincial government's minimum wage increase.

"The numbers we've seen this month, as it relates to part-time employment, are part of a national trend," Del Duca told reporters on Friday.

"We see similar circumstances, numbers or trends in other parts of the country. We know we lead the country in growth. We know we have more work to do." 

Del Duca said "an honest day's work" should earn "an honest's day and a fair day's pay" and a decent minimum wage is critical to a good quality of life in the province.

"We see that this is a national trend taking place at this particular moment in time. We don't tend to look at month- by-month numbers in isolation. It's most important for us to look at the trend and the trend in Ontario is a good one. There is confidence here in this province," he said.

Economists divided on effect of wage hike

The province hiked minimum wage by $2.40 per hour to $14 per hour at the beginning of the year, a move some economists warned could result in mass job losses as employers look to reduce costs. Overall, economists are divided on how minimum wage increases play out. Some research has suggested a reduction in hours or jobs follow mandated wage bumps, while other studies suggest no long-term connection between wage increases and dips in employment rates. 

The 59,000 figure is a "whopping" one, said Matthieu Arseneau, senior economist at National Bank Financial Markets, in a note.

It "may be a sign of adjustments made by corporations coping with a minimum wage surge," he said, noting young people ages 15 to 24 lost 24,000 part-time positions.

However, economists also pointed to possible connections between Ontario's minimum wage and Canada's stronger average wage growth of 3.3 per cent in January.

"One of the positives in today's release was the fact that wage growth picked up, said Craig Alexander, chief economist at the Conference Board of Canada.

"Now part of that might be reflecting the increase in minimum wages in Ontario because that increase in minimum wage is impacting more than 20 per cent of all the workers in Ontario."

Ontario's minimum wage to rise to $15 in 2019

The board's modelling suggests the increase will reduce the number of jobs created in Ontario this year by roughly 40,000.

Ontario's mandatory minimum hourly rate is set for another bump in January 2019, when it will rise to $15.

The province of British Columbia announced Thursday it too plans to raise rates for its lowest paid employees over several years.

It aims to reach at least $15.20 by June 2021. Its current minimum wage is set at $11.35 and will rise every June, starting this year when it moves to $12.65, until it reaches at least $15.20.

Some have already criticized the increase as being too fast, noting it may be difficult for small business owners to adapt to the increased labour costs.

 

Raising the minimum wage seems like a good idea on the outside...until businesses decide to let people go because of it.  I've actually been a proponent of minimum wage increases in the past but based on what I've seen in recent years where it's been done, I'm not sure how I feel about it anymore.  

How do all you Canadians feel about this?

 

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Not a Canadian, but raising minimum wage hurts businesses. The manager that was making $14/hr now has to get bumped up to $18-$20/hr and their boss has to get a raise and so on. Is it a problem for a large company like Walmart or McDonalds? No. But a midsize company could suffer a bit from it

Edited by Gibson_Guy87
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Increasing the minimum wage is an absolute must (speaking from Pennsylvania, where it's $7.25), but I always thought the whole #fightfor15 campaign was far too drastic of an increase in such a short time. 

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My rudimentary understanding of economics makes me think that if you scale wages with the rising AND falling costs of living - you would have better quality of life for most people and less issues.

One side keeps yelling about how they don't want to pay their fair share(wonder how much soul searching it took them to come up with that gem of a world view.) and the other side yells financial promises for the sake of pandering and, like the other side, also serving themselves.

Instead of communities we all now live in the machine of economy.

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The problem with the minimum wage as a concept is that it says to an employee "I'd pay you less if I could". 

I'm all for a Universal Basic Income. It is complementary to both left and right wing ideals for different reasons, and will make a minimum wage increase like this far less difficult. I'd love to see that rolled out within my lifetime. 

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Yeah, fuck raising the minimum wage, poor people deserve to starve, if the good Lord did not want them to be sheared he would not have made them sheep. 

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If this is Canadian Dollars then it's barely much more than the UK version.

8 hours ago, Jakey Styley said:

Increasing the minimum wage is an absolute must (speaking from Pennsylvania, where it's $7.25), but I always thought the whole #fightfor15 campaign was far too drastic of an increase in such a short time. 

Whether that's in USD (I assume) or Canadian Dollars, how the fuck would you survive in a first world country on that money?

That's like £5.21 an hour here, no way.

23 minutes ago, Len Cnut said:

Yeah, fuck raising the minimum wage, poor people deserve to starve, if the good Lord did not want them to be sheared he would not have made them sheep. 

Right wingers believe this. If the Tories could get away with it, they would. 

You get people on BBC question time saying, I'm struggling and relying on food banks with my current job. Yet I'm terrified of my wage going up.

Cunts.

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Right wingers believe this. If the Tories could get away with it, they would. 

I know.  And thats why they're a bunch of fuckin' wankers. 

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1 hour ago, Gracii Guns said:

The problem with the minimum wage as a concept is that it says to an employee "I'd pay you less if I could". 

I'm all for a Universal Basic Income. It is complementary to both left and right wing ideals for different reasons, and will make a minimum wage increase like this far less difficult. I'd love to see that rolled out within my lifetime. 

So in other words *shines light in your eyes* you're a communist!? :lol: Just kidding, I'm on the same page as you guys.

What do you mean by Universal Basic Income? A living wage?

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33 minutes ago, Oldest Goat said:

So in other words *shines light in your eyes* you're a communist!? :lol: Just kidding, I'm on the same page as you guys.

What do you mean by Universal Basic Income? A living wage?

The model varies from country to country, but in short, instead of some people receiving benefits/welfare, every adult citizen will automatically receive a stipend, which provides them enough to get by without working. 

In the UK, the cost of running a benefits sytem (wages, paper, IT systems, offices etc.) would be completely abolished, and the costs saved would cover the amount needed for every adult to have a basic income. Regardless of need. So the Queen could receive it as much as a homeless person could. That means a person with mental illness wouldn't worry about proving themselves to a benefits advisor. Food banks would disappear overnight, as food would become affordable and remain so, due to less of a need to increase the minimum wage. It also means that there will be no stigma around claiming benefits. Nobody will be labelled a "scrounger". 

This money would liberate people to start their own businesses, (which there is NO government help for, by the way), study, or assess what kind of work they want to be doing. The folks making Subways could drop a few hours to make sure they can collect their kids from school.

The big risk is that the value of property would increase. There is a housing shortage, and if every landlord knew that their tenants were receiving an extra £1k a month, they'd want a slice of that. But more needs to be done by governments to ensure that housing is available for everyone. 

UBI is currently being trialled in the Netherlands, to prove that recipients won't sit around all day getting high. 

--------
As for an increased minimum wage leading to extra costs for employers, it also means the consumer has extra money to spend. 

Edited by Gracii Guns
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I wanna add on to what I said earlier and say that I'm not against minimum wage being raised. I make $10/hr and barely stay afloat as it is, no fuckin way could I afford to live on $7.25/hr. I just don't think it should be such a drastic raise in such a short amount of time as it could hurt some of the small businesses.

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Important to compare to National trends.  Also, when an article like that omits a consumer voices ones left wondering if the reporter wasnt qualified or if they left it out on purpose.   Why did they model the conversation about (unproven) job loss, rather then ending with the question: 'Do consumers really reject a $0.05 increase on a cup of coffee if that means leaving 20 000 full time workers in deep poverty?'

What we are seeing in Ontario is that wages were stagnant too the point that a full time, minimum wage income left workers below the poverty line.  Add any dependents (children) to the workers budget and you have destitution.  Had business and previous govts not dismissed the workers humanity and dignity for so long, and increased wages in ways that at least matched inflation there wouldn't have been any need for such a large increase to get full time workers out of poverty.

Some businesses have indeed over reacted and for some thats meant firing staff.  Wait till the businesses remember that they had those workers because they required them to function! :facepalm:  Its uninformed panic, continued bullying of workers and its also a way to engineer this headline in a last ditch effort to have the increase dismissed.  They need those workers.

March headline: "Employment right back to where it was in December"  And Aprils "lowest unemployment ever as for the first time in decades minimum wage earners are able to spend money on products and services, creating demand for new jobs"

As had been previously highlighted, business that fail to compete on the playing field are ill-equipped. Various market forces lead them to adapt or cease to exist.  

 

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Increased minimum wage in the US might lessen the importance of that country's moronic and totally incomprehensible tipping culture. And for that alone I am in favor.

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2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Increased minimum wage in the US might lessen the importance of that country's moronic and totally incomprehensible tipping culture. And for that alone I am in favor.

 

1 hour ago, DieselDaisy said:

Tipping, the bane of every Englishman (abroad). 

You cheapskates. :P

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2 hours ago, SoulMonster said:

Increased minimum wage in the US might lessen the importance of that country's moronic and totally incomprehensible tipping culture. And for that alone I am in favor.

It's only "incomprehensible and moronic" if you don't understand it.

For someone as seemingly intelligent as yourself it shouldn't be that difficult.  You add roughly 20% to the price of the items on the menu when viewing the menu...that's the true price.  And you have the advantage that if you get poor service, to get a discount on your food by not tipping the full 20% if you so choose.

Not to mention the fact it makes people feel good about themselves when they get a better tip for exceptional service.  

It's actually brilliant.

Edited by Kasanova King

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5 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

 

You cheapskates. :P

Uhm, we are not the ones refusing them an honest salary forcing them to live off tips from bewildered foreigners. 

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16 minutes ago, SoulMonster said:

Uhm, we are not the ones refusing them an honest salary forcing them to live off tips from bewildered foreigners. 

Actually waiters and bartenders in the US make significantly more on average  (Particularly in higher end establishments) than most of their European counterparts...and most of their income is tax free here in the US thanks to the tipping system.  

Edited by Kasanova King

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10 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Actually waiters and bartenders in the US make significantly more on average than most of their European counterparts...and most of their income is tax free here in the US thanks to the tipping system.  

I worked in the service industry for several years and noticed that most bartenders/servers with ten plus years of experience never owned, always rented.  They could never qualify for a mortgage because their disclosed income was far lower than required.  

It's a great industry if you're in a transitional period of your life (school, between jobs, etc.), but it's not any way to go through life without any semblance of security.  

And I would qualify your point about making more depending on where a person lives and what they serve.  Someone living in NYC or works in a fine dining establishment where 15-25 percent on high-priced food and liquor can net a server a lot of money; not so much for those working at small town diners.

The principle behind tipping is kind of fucked anyway.  It has no real association with the service that is being delivered.  A person serving breakfast makes $1 for refilling a patron's coffee several times but the guy dispensing a $100 bottle of wine gets tipped $20-$25 (and probably does a lot less work).  Ask for a bottle of beer and give your bartender a couple of dollars; ask for a glass of water and they usually get nothing.  The price of the product determines the tip far more than the service being provided.  That doesn't mean I don't tip; former bartenders and waiters are generally the most generous tippers.  But I see how absurd the whole system is, especially when you consider that the people who work the hardest (the cooks) almost always get nothing from such a system (which, if we're being honest, the quality of the food can also have significant impact on the food).  

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19 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

It's only "incomprehensible and moronic" if you don't understand it.

For someone as seemingly intelligent as yourself it shouldn't be that difficult.  You add roughly 20% to the price of the items on the menu when viewing the menu...that's the true price.  And you have the advantage that if you get poor service, to get a discount on your food by not tipping the full 20% if you so choose.

Not to mention the fact it makes people feel good about themselves when they get a better tip for exceptional service.  

It's actually brilliant.

There is absolutely zero brilliance to it.

Sure, tipping at restaurants are easy. Hell, they typically calculate the tip for you on the bill. It's as easy as it gets.

But what about the bellboy, the concierge, the bartender, the escort who went over and beyond, the Uber driver (sure, you weren't supposed to tip before but now?), the tour guide, the cleaning personnel, the boots boy, the sommelier? And so on. I am sure you, as you read, know the answers to all of these instantly, but to a foreigner who is dropped into the alien culture, it is quite perplexing.

And keep in mind that I usually get rid of all coins when leaving USA by putting it in my hotel room for the cleaning guys -- because I can't be bothered carrying coins back home -- so when I return to the US I usually come without any coins at all, and coming from a mostly cash-free country like Norway, it rarely dawns on me to get cash at the airport ATM and sooner or later I find myself in the awkward situation of offering a piece of gum to the first low-paid service person who looks at me expectantly after having performed some menial duty for me. It is awkward.

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30 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

It's only "incomprehensible and moronic" if you don't understand it.

For someone as seemingly intelligent as yourself it shouldn't be that difficult.  You add roughly 20% to the price of the items on the menu when viewing the menu...that's the true price.  And you have the advantage that if you get poor service, to get a discount on your food by not tipping the full 20% if you so choose.

Not to mention the fact it makes people feel good about themselves when they get a better tip for exceptional service.  

It's actually brilliant.

I'd need a fuckin' calculator to be honest :lol:

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23 minutes ago, Kasanova King said:

Actually waiters and bartenders in the US make significantly more on average  (Particularly in higher end establishments) than most of their European counterparts...and most of their income is tax free here in the US thanks to the tipping system.  

I will give you that, the ridiculous tipping system usually means I get great service anywhere in the US. 

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Tipping in the United States originated from white business owners refusing to pay black workers a wage, so the customers were encouraged to leave them tips to live off of.

Edited by Georgy Zhukov

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15 minutes ago, Georgy Zhukov said:

Tipping in the United States originated from white business owners refusing to pay black workers a wage, so the customers were encouraged to leave them tips to live off of.

If society was that racist then why would anyone tip em anyway?

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