A reason we won't ever get the rest of the CD sessions?

[GnR Chris]

I stumbled across an old interview with Alan Niven from 2010 on bravewords.com. In it he discusses two big mistakes Axl Rose made. I am sure this interview has been posted on this forum in the past, but here is an interesting snippet:

“If I’d been in a responsible position to advise and counsel Axl, I would have done everything in my power to make sure that Chinese Democracy was something that people always talked about and wondered about, but never actually got to completely hear, that it would never be actually released. Recording went on for so long that there was no way in hell that the record he was putting together was going to meet expectations. The minute it was released Mitch it became just one more record. Before its release it was a myth. It was fascinating. People talked about it. People wanted to hear it. The third mistake was that he should have made sure to keep all his tapes and all his discs under his wing and under his lock and key, so, that there wouldn’t have been any leaks. Then he could have released the occasional track and he could have worked them 'live' for another ten years. That would have been more mysterious, more engaging, more fascinating…”

He makes a really great point. Chinese Democracy was an insane myth. Everybody knew and wondered about it for over a decade. It never could have lived up to the hype. Ever.

I think perhaps Axl agrees with that sentiment and would rather now leave the rest of any songs he has in the vault. The mystery will always be there and we're always wondering when we'll hear the material. We probably never will, and that statement of Niven makes a lot of sense. What would Axl gain from releasing the old material? What keeps us talking and clamoring for more is NOT having it, really.

Niven went on to substantiate Axl's claims about Irving Azoff as well, and that he just wanted to dump CD on the market to "get it out of the way" to break ground for a reunion.

"I think the release was done purely based on financial reasons. And Irving wanted to get it out of the way because he wanted the reunion. I doubt he was motivated to see it successful. He essentially got paid for it's release, not it's subsequent performance and the deal with Best Buy was set up that way. Going with Best Buy narrowed the market reach - Wal Mart would have been a better exclusive - they have a deeper reach into secondary and tertiary markets - but best of all would have been to let everyone have it. There is a sense that the deal was designed to maximize the immediate take - to grab that and run to the next point of agenda - a re-union. I don’t think Irving ever understood the unlikelihood of that reunion ever taking place and how deep feelings run.”

Again, this thread wasn't to bring up an old interview but to perhaps add insight as to why we might not get new material.

SOUL MONSTER, JACKIE CHAN, MONSTROSITY and every other confirmed and unconfirmed name in the book. We'll be talking about this shit for the next 10 years and the rest of our lives as long as we're fans of Axl and Guns. Right?

Edit: The link to the interview is below for those who may have missed it the first time it was posted here a couple years back.

http://www.bravewords.com/news/146671

Edited February 14, 2012 by GnR Chris

[axlsalinger]

In my opinion, the mystique around Chinese Democracy was fascinating, and no record could have ever lived up to the hype, but I'm glad it came out. It seemed to me to be more of a burden on Axl than anything. At this point, Chinese Democracy is over. Withholding songs now is just hurting the band and the fans. If the songs aren't considered ready or good enough, that's one thing, but holding them back now for no reason other than to cling to some sort of fake mystique that no longer exists is just pointless.

[SOH]

I don't agree with that sentiment. The general public (in America at least) doesn't really care anymore, the cat's out of the bag, any extra material will sink or swim on its own merits, not "this is mysterious and secretive". That was the case with Chinese Democracy, they don't care about the follow-ups the same way so it's a different situation.

[uzeurilluzion]

Haha!

Decent point ........the myth of it was intense and got squashed as soon as it was released

BUT I would have went crazy if I didn't get Chinese for another 10 years or longer!!

I'm sure we will hear the music one of these days on Axl time. Im pretty sure he has said before that they havent worked that hard to NOT release their material

[Georgy Zhukov]

Fucking good album

[GNR123GNR456]

I don't agree. I think it would be in Axl's best interest to release at least a new single before 2014. This band he has today is fantastic and their shows are awesome. But not having their own material is making people's perception of this band as a "cover band." It's not a cover band, it's like every other band that changes members, but they have no material to show their true potential.

If they don't have a full album ready, release a EP. If they don't have enough songs for a 5 song EP, release a single. Hell, you don't even have to release it through the record label, release it through iTunes.

[GnR Chris]

In my opinion, the mystique around Chinese Democracy was fascinating, and no record could have ever lived up to the hype, but I'm glad it came out. It seemed to me to be more of a burden on Axl than anything. At this point, Chinese Democracy is over. Withholding songs now is just hurting the band and the fans. If the songs aren't considered ready or good enough, that's one thing, but holding them back now for no reason other than to cling to some sort of fake mystique that no longer exists is just pointless.

Oh, I'm personally very happy it came out. I am a huge fan of Axl's work so any new material to add to the Guns N' Roses catalogue is a plus in my mind. But what Niven said, I've never really thought about that angle before. At this point in time, Axl will never be what he was popularity-wise. Guys that old aren't gonna be pop-culture phenomenons because younger kids drive that market, you know? Had CD released in, say, 2001, it would have been a totally different story.

After reading that, and after years of hoping for more material, I'm kinda starting to get the hint that Axl isn't really ever going to do it. There's no money in record sales anyhow. He's doing OK by tours. I think the CD stuff stays firmly in the vault. I bet we're more likely to get a new song penned by the current group and the songs from CD will remain the stuff of legend.

Edited February 14, 2012 by GnR Chris

[Lethalis]

Nobody would know whether a song is really new or from the chinese democracy era, especially when it is reworked.

Unless they tell us.

If he has great stuff in the vault, he will release it.. because in the end it's a business.

[DaNutz]

Axl doesnt give a fuck about Alan Niven or the pre release mystique with Chinese.....He's happy with Chinese, as he should be.

[wasted]

there's songs on CD which kind of come from the UYI era. So by time get to next one it could be like we wrote these two songs in the CD era.

[Flayer]

I just think that's Alan Niven's gimmick, the same way the reunion was Irving Azoff's. This says nothing about how Axl thought of it.

[Guest RonMexico82]

Nail on head.

[KiraMPD]

I just think that's Alan Niven's gimmick, the same way the reunion was Irving Azoff's. This says nothing about how Axl thought of it.

Yes, but it would have been a good gimmick. Ive always had the feeling that if some of the songs on CD had been released NOT under the Chinese Democracy banner, but as singles (songs like TWAT, SOD, TIL, Better...), they would have done much better. Keeping CD in the volt would keep us all speculating while releasing a single or two every couple of years would keep the fans happy or at least placated. Post-CD it seems that much of the hype has died down and GnR touring does not seem to create as much of a buzz as it did pre 08.

Personally I prefer Alan Niven's idea of a gimmick more than the one Irving Azoff tried to pull. Alan worked with the original line-up and he is somewhat more familiar with the group dynamics and how deep the feelings do run better that Azoff and thus knew a reunion would be next to impossible.

Now, none of this reflects on what Axl may have actually wanted but business wise Alan's idea is a million times better than what actually went down.

BTW; What was actually Axl's beef with Alan? The way Niven discribes it, it was all business powerplay back in the 90s. Personally I think he was the best mannager Guns ever had as he seems to understand how those guys worked better than any of the subsequent mannagers ever did.

Edited February 14, 2012 by KiraMPD

[auad]

I stumbled across an old interview with Alan Niven from 2010 on bravewords.com. In it he discusses two big mistakes Axl Rose made. I am sure this interview has been posted on this forum in the past, but here is an interesting snippet:

“If I’d been in a responsible position to advise and counsel Axl, I would have done everything in my power to make sure that Chinese Democracy was something that people always talked about and wondered about, but never actually got to completely hear, that it would never be actually released. Recording went on for so long that there was no way in hell that the record he was putting together was going to meet expectations. The minute it was released Mitch it became just one more record. Before its release it was a myth. It was fascinating. People talked about it. People wanted to hear it. The third mistake was that he should have made sure to keep all his tapes and all his discs under his wing and under his lock and key, so, that there wouldn’t have been any leaks. Then he could have released the occasional track and he could have worked them 'live' for another ten years. That would have been more mysterious, more engaging, more fascinating…”

He makes a really great point. Chinese Democracy was an insane myth. Everybody knew and wondered about it for over a decade. It never could have lived up to the hype. Ever.

I think perhaps Axl agrees with that sentiment and would rather now leave the rest of any songs he has in the vault. The mystery will always be there and we're always wondering when we'll hear the material. We probably never will, and that statement of Niven makes a lot of sense. What would Axl gain from releasing the old material? What keeps us talking and clamoring for more is NOT having it, really.

Niven went on to substantiate Axl's claims about Irving Azoff as well, and that he just wanted to dump CD on the market to "get it out of the way" to break ground for a reunion.

"I think the release was done purely based on financial reasons. And Irving wanted to get it out of the way because he wanted the reunion. I doubt he was motivated to see it successful. He essentially got paid for it's release, not it's subsequent performance and the deal with Best Buy was set up that way. Going with Best Buy narrowed the market reach - Wal Mart would have been a better exclusive - they have a deeper reach into secondary and tertiary markets - but best of all would have been to let everyone have it. There is a sense that the deal was designed to maximize the immediate take - to grab that and run to the next point of agenda - a re-union. I don’t think Irving ever understood the unlikelihood of that reunion ever taking place and how deep feelings run.”

Again, this thread wasn't to bring up an old interview but to perhaps add insight as to why we might not get new material.

SOUL MONSTER, JACKIE CHAN, MONSTROSITY and every other confirmed and unconfirmed name in the book. We'll be talking about this shit for the next 10 years and the rest of our lives as long as we're fans of Axl and Guns. Right?

Edit: The link to the interview is below for those who may have missed it the first time it was posted here a couple years back.

http://www.bravewords.com/news/146671

insanity is to keep music stored on top time in the safe.

[Aussiegun]

I wonder how things would've been if the album had've changed name before release (with all unheard tracks). Would Chinese Democracy be this mythical thing still..

[Flayer]

No. And people would have gotten tired of playing the game. Alan Niven can talk up a great fantasy but the reality would have been badly different. I am glad CD came out and wish all this label scheming and politics wouldn't have delayed it so badly in the first place.

[dalsh327]

It's pretty much like the Beach Boys "Smile" and the cult that developed around it over the years. But what they did was shelve it and put "Smiley Smile" out instead, but that was within a year.

Niven would've been happy if Axl took the master tapes and burned them, so no one would ever get to hear them, and having it go on "great unreleased albums" lists.

It's like talking to a Beatles fan about the 25 minute "Helter Skelter" and "Carnival of Light".

But from a business standpoint, how long are you going to give an artist still under contract to release something? His reason for not promoting it was the artwork? He seems to be proud of the songs if he's touring them - I just think he was having big time anxiety over releasing it and didn't feel it was what he wanted it to turn out like. That's just typical of any artist, very few are completely happy with the end result. It took a lot of people time to warm up to it, but even back then people had mostly positive things to say about it. But facing the media - he couldn't do it. We have little idea of what was going on with him in 2007-2008, even though since then, a few things came out.

I also think he knew this was the end of his relationship with Geffen. You would think the way he bad mouthed them it was good, but he knew that once this was out, they were done.

UYI had its problems, but at least they were on the road while it came out.

[Coma16]

It's pretty much like the Beach Boys "Smile" and the cult that developed around it over the years. But what they did was shelve it and put "Smiley Smile" out instead, but that was within a year.

Niven would've been happy if Axl took the master tapes and burned them, so no one would ever get to hear them, and having it go on "great unreleased albums" lists.

It's like talking to a Beatles fan about the 25 minute "Helter Skelter" and "Carnival of Light".

But from a business standpoint, how long are you going to give an artist still under contract to release something? His reason for not promoting it was the artwork? He seems to be proud of the songs if he's touring them - I just think he was having big time anxiety over releasing it and didn't feel it was what he wanted it to turn out like. That's just typical of any artist, very few are completely happy with the end result. It took a lot of people time to warm up to it, but even back then people had mostly positive things to say about it. But facing the media - he couldn't do it. We have little idea of what was going on with him in 2007-2008, even though since then, a few things came out.

I also think he knew this was the end of his relationship with Geffen. You would think the way he bad mouthed them it was good, but he knew that once this was out, they were done.

UYI had its problems, but at least they were on the road while it came out.

Well, CD had its problems, but at least they were on the road twice before it came out.

[appetite4illusions]

I disagree.

The only way the mystique could be sustained is if the album never arrived. It did, there was little fanfare, some critical acclaim, but it was mostly forgotten the next week.

There is no mystique now in leftovers, at least amongst the general public. Axl already made his statement with the album, and people were able to decided if its an album they liked or they didn't.

That monumental anticipation is gone. GONE. We're all waiting for the next album because we love the band and hope to see Axl do something great again, but the myth itself has been shattered. There would be no point in Axl holding back to create a myth, because that myth will never exist again.

[AXL_N_DIZZY]

A lot of truth in this thread. Only additional comment I would make is that the "anticipation" for CD was such a unique thing b/c there was a lot of "negative anticipation" as well. In other words tons of media members, fans of the alternative/grunge scene, some hard core Metallica fans and lets face it hard core fans of the old band that wanted CD out b/c they wanted it to suck (not just sales- but artistically)...

Now personally- I think CD is an AMAZING piece of art- but it kind of cracks me up in a way that its broader "general public" reputation after all the angst and anticipation from both supporters and detractors is that of kind of a "Big Foot" album that nobody can really get their arms around. It didn't set the charts on fire and cure cancer like the die-hards hoped- but neither can the detractors claim it was a complete piece of garbage (not to the degree they had hoped to anyway). Too many examples of great musicianship on the album (as almost every review- positive or negative point out) to credibly make that claim. It's just Chinese Democracy- no more... no less. Whatever that means.

As far as Axl's career goes- and specifically with reference to the next 5-10 years or so- I think it's GREAT that CD is out though. With much of the pressure and anticipation gone- my sincere hope is that the next album is a much more fun process for him... and who knows... that may just be the very environment he actually needed all this time to make another universally appreciated album... Crazier things have happened.

Edited February 14, 2012 by AXL_N_DIZZY

[Gnfnrhead]

The reality of the situation is that the Chinese Democracy myth had already peaked and was losing interest when the album was finally released. Delaying it for ten more years wouldnt have achieved anything. Only the hardcore fans would care after that long. Had it been released even five years earlier, then I think it would have been much bigger than it was. By the same token, had the exact same album been released say five years after TSI, it would have been huge. The long wait ended up hurting the album more than helping it. Yes, more people knew of it, but not that many were actually interested in it.

Also, the music industry changed a lot in the time it took for Chinese Democracy to be released. Some of that is reflected in some of the early versions we heard. Unfortunatly, Rock music isnt the big kid on the block anymore these days and that has obviously contributed to the less than amazing sales for the album.

[Lines&Noses]

In my opinion, the mystique around Chinese Democracy was fascinating, and no record could have ever lived up to the hype, but I'm glad it came out. It seemed to me to be more of a burden on Axl than anything. At this point, Chinese Democracy is over. Withholding songs now is just hurting the band and the fans. If the songs aren't considered ready or good enough, that's one thing, but holding them back now for no reason other than to cling to some sort of fake mystique that no longer exists is just pointless.

Totally agree.

Chi Dem was just Ok imho it just hasn't grown on me and prolly never will as I just don't force myself to listen to it anymore.

So short of a reunion with the AFD line up and I'd like to hear original material from the current line up, rather than hear the current line up re-hash the chi-dem line-up's songs.

Hopefully if they have the right chemistry the recording process will not be as protracted as chi dem and we get to hear new material sooner than later.

If Axl did want to release the remaining Chi Dem material, I think he should release it with the original Chi Dem musicians and release it as a box set.

Asking the current line up to try and record another bands material from 10 years ago hardly seems fair to anyone?

[AGS]

We all knew this, but for me this is the most interesting part of the interview... someone who knows Axl, and the world around him... i still cant believe how Azoff think he could reunite them was that man stupid or what?

"I think the release was done purely based on financial reasons. And Irving wanted to get it out of the way because he wanted the reunion. I doubt he was motivated to see it successful. He essentially got paid for it's release, not it's subsequent performance and the deal with Best Buy was set up that way. Going with Best Buy narrowed the market reach - Wal Mart would have been a better exclusive - they have a deeper reach into secondary and tertiary markets - but best of all would have been to let everyone have it. There is a sense that the deal was designed to maximize the immediate take - to grab that and run to the next point of agenda - a re-union. I don’t think Irving ever understood the unlikelihood of that reunion ever taking place and how deep feelings run.”

Edit: btw, thx for posting it, never readed it

Edited February 14, 2012 by AGS